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  1. #11
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Maybe this will help you... Last weekend I went to a match (obedience picnic trial, to put it into perspective) and it was the first time in about three years of doing this seriously (all the training I did up until then was without a competition focus or at least not seriously) that I felt like I wasn't a fish out of water in the ring.

    So, three solid years of matches (both official and pretend with friends), private lessons, classes every week and sometimes twice, online classes (videoing myself and putting them out there for everyone in the class to see and talk about), taking my dog to trials and not running him (just acclimating and getting both of us used to working in that environment), proofing, training with friends (and acquaintances), putting together a solid routine for both of us (pre-trial at home, when we get there, acclimating, relaxing, decompressing, what we'll do before we get in the ring, ring waiting, ring entries and ring exits), working spots in seminars and of course training at home as well as in other rings and novel locations (stores, parking lots, tennis courts, fields, the road in front of my house, the driveway, etc.). I'm not a particularly nervous person, but it takes time to work up the ability to think on your feet in these situations, be confident and be able to really be there for your dog and keep that connection and focus. And, while I felt pretty good in the ring last weekend, it will be a long time until I feel like it's my second home, probably not in my current dog's lifetime, either.

    Last week in my obedience class we worked on ring entries and one thing that my trainer pointed out was that we need to enter the ring like we own it. We paid for that time (a LOT of money per minute) and it is our time. The judge is there for us, we are not there for them. I would say the same about walking up to the line. And, don't forget that the judges and spectators are human, just like you, and with the exception of something crazy happening, no one is going to remember your run an hour later -- no one really cares that much (except for you).

  2. #12
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I think I'm starting to get it. Very frustrating when there is just so much "curriculum" for a working retriever to get through. Yes we began with obedience. But with THIS dog (a typical "high roller") it just isn't like the obedience you can get away with in a much less intense dog like my older one.

    So, that incremental step-wise, repetitive (hundreds of times over and again in varieties of settings with incrementally more distractions) learning is what is being suggested here and in the "other" place.
    Yep.

    This morning at 0630 I went out into the cul-de-sac in front of our house and just did 15 minutes of assessment on a long line. Good focus. It's a start.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I think I'm starting to get it. Very frustrating when there is just so much "curriculum" for a working retriever to get through. Yes we began with obedience. But with THIS dog (a typical "high roller") it just isn't like the obedience you can get away with in a much less intense dog like my older one.

    So, that incremental step-wise, repetitive (hundreds of times over and again in varieties of settings with incrementally more distractions) learning is what is being suggested here and in the "other" place.
    Yep.

    This morning at 0630 I went out into the cul-de-sac in front of our house and just did 15 minutes of assessment on a long line. Good focus. It's a start.
    Yup ... different dogs require different approaches (even my two littermates require different type of training), and the more competitive you get in your chosen sport, the tougher your criteria for what you want have to be. Chloe has some bad habits from when she was younger that I am not letting the pups get away with because I don’t want to have to fix them later. My first dogs I was just happy if they earned the title - now I want to WIN but it requires much more precision.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  4. #14
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    We've continued really stringent obedience... and tried to include things that are associated with field work (especially formal HT's). Put up the holding blinds. Heel-sit-forward-back-sideways-autostop-etc. We've gone from the house to the truck... sit... wait... kennel... down... wait... here (to tailgate)... wait... heel... more heeling. We've been at it twice a day at least. (I was gone to visit mom but other than that it's been steady.) Obviously, in the house, there is no elasticity. A command is a command.

    What I can tell you is that I seem to have her attention. I know this is not about obedience, it's about focus-on-me-no-matter-what. And that seems to be the response I'm getting. No ground-sniffing. No watching the scenery. Today we did the obedience thing with the truck, the crate, the holding blinds, hubby in the field firing the pistol and waving a big white bumper. So far so good.

    Now: Here's where I'm maybe confused. I need help to figure out what I'm looking for as we get in the field with the training group. The over-arching theme (it seems to me) has been to convey to the dog... it's not about you and what you want. It's about what we do together. We work together, you get what you want. Now, once we begin to apply this in the field, her attention will be transferred to the marks, which is appropriate. But I don't know how to expand her range of focus, to include me AND the birds going down. I believe she will lock in on the birds (even a simple single) and forget I'm there. (And begin snort-snort-squeek-whine-snort.)

    I don't know if I'm making any sense. But if you have suggestions...

  5. #15
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    I hit this yesterday and I'm working it out with my trainer (the online trainer; I'm in a continuing ed online FDSA gun dog class). I don't have the exact same issue as you, but only because my dog reacts differently to being over-faced. In a hunt test situation, from the last blind to the line, my dog is tuned out. From the car to the first blind, to the next blind, to the next blind, he is tuned into me totally. But from that last blind to the line, all but the primal part of his brain that thinks "bird, bird, bird, bird, bird" turns off. The only connection we have is the leash and even then, I could literally pull him over because he doesn't even feel it and I never use it in that way, so he should be sensitive to it. He won't respond to food either. If I did use an e-collar for him for this, I don't even know that he would feel it.

    Believe it or not, your high roller field Lab and my mama's boy conformation Lab are actually having the same issues right now! Ha! (I need that "laughing so hard I'm crying" emoji right now).

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    We've continued really stringent obedience... and tried to include things that are associated with field work (especially formal HT's). Put up the holding blinds. Heel-sit-forward-back-sideways-autostop-etc. We've gone from the house to the truck... sit... wait... kennel... down... wait... here (to tailgate)... wait... heel... more heeling. We've been at it twice a day at least. (I was gone to visit mom but other than that it's been steady.) Obviously, in the house, there is no elasticity. A command is a command.

    What I can tell you is that I seem to have her attention. I know this is not about obedience, it's about focus-on-me-no-matter-what. And that seems to be the response I'm getting. No ground-sniffing. No watching the scenery. Today we did the obedience thing with the truck, the crate, the holding blinds, hubby in the field firing the pistol and waving a big white bumper. So far so good.

    Now: Here's where I'm maybe confused. I need help to figure out what I'm looking for as we get in the field with the training group. The over-arching theme (it seems to me) has been to convey to the dog... it's not about you and what you want. It's about what we do together. We work together, you get what you want. Now, once we begin to apply this in the field, her attention will be transferred to the marks, which is appropriate. But I don't know how to expand her range of focus, to include me AND the birds going down. I believe she will lock in on the birds (even a simple single) and forget I'm there. (And begin snort-snort-squeek-whine-snort.)

    I don't know if I'm making any sense. But if you have suggestions...
    The only thing I can think of is to get to the point where you can take her to the line, let her watch the mark fall, and then demand attention back on you without sending her. For example, after the mark falls, insist she go heel under control with you to a different location. So it’s not that she is attending to both the mark and you at the same time, but attending to the mark and then immediately returning attention to you. The goal is that she do this automatically, and eventually you will be able to sometimes send her, sometimes abort and she will be used to either scenario.

    Believe me, she’ll still remember where the bird is even if you do this. I’ve done stuff like this with Chloe using bumpers (she is obsessed), and then asked her to do 4 or 5 things before releasing her and upon being released she goes right to the hidden bumper.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  7. #17
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    OK... I'm seeing it somewhat. There is no reason for her to believe every bird is hers. So when we go out with the training group, we can do obedience back by the truck and then go back into the crate. (She can hear the guns and quacks... these are programmed sounds in our wingers... she can almost certainly smell the recycled ducks we're using.) Then later on, we can heel to a holding blind and wait. Then we can go to the line and watch one go down. Then do some brief obedience (heeling forward, sideways, back...) then leave the line and honor another dog... etc. and back to the truck.

    Annette, does this sound like what you're getting at? Dorks, is this consistent with what you're getting in your R+ classes?

    Labradorks! Ha!!! I think it's hysterical. And reassuring! Tells us a LOT about the robust genetics in these dogs. They get high on feathers.

    Honest, it's beginning to sound like I have GOT to go to Rose City just to see this and compare notes.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    OK... I'm seeing it somewhat. There is no reason for her to believe every bird is hers. So when we go out with the training group, we can do obedience back by the truck and then go back into the crate. (She can hear the guns and quacks... these are programmed sounds in our wingers... she can almost certainly smell the recycled ducks we're using.) Then later on, we can heel to a holding blind and wait. Then we can go to the line and watch one go down. Then do some brief obedience (heeling forward, sideways, back...) then leave the line and honor another dog... etc. and back to the truck.

    Annette, does this sound like what you're getting at?
    Yes, exactly. And sometimes, when she is calm and quiet let her have the bird as a reward! But be aware that on the next attempt she might get excited again, so you’ll have to go back to prior steps. She should get it eventually.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  9. #19
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    OK... I'm seeing it somewhat. There is no reason for her to believe every bird is hers. So when we go out with the training group, we can do obedience back by the truck and then go back into the crate. (She can hear the guns and quacks... these are programmed sounds in our wingers... she can almost certainly smell the recycled ducks we're using.) Then later on, we can heel to a holding blind and wait. Then we can go to the line and watch one go down. Then do some brief obedience (heeling forward, sideways, back...) then leave the line and honor another dog... etc. and back to the truck.

    Annette, does this sound like what you're getting at? Dorks, is this consistent with what you're getting in your R+ classes?

    Labradorks! Ha!!! I think it's hysterical. And reassuring! Tells us a LOT about the robust genetics in these dogs. They get high on feathers.

    Honest, it's beginning to sound like I have GOT to go to Rose City just to see this and compare notes.
    Well, I don't know. I think heeling to the line is going to be my written homework this week for core concept skills progression. I can share what I have with you once I have submitted it and have received feedback. Our dogs are different, so there's that. I think yours would be more prone to frustration and end up making more noise and mine might be more prone to loss of motivation and end up becoming slow and possibly show avoidance behaviors. So, your goal is more along the line of holding your dog back, but without built up frustration and losing her mind and my goal is controlling my dog in an over-aroused state without destroying his motivation and drive. Or, something like that.

    Thinking out loud here... My thought is that I would start slower, easier, and build on that. I would get my criteria in order get it perfect without the distractions and build on that -- adding distractions and duration, possibly distance, too -- and only reward for criteria. With each progression, I will make it easy to start. Start in the yard, add distractions, go to a random field, add distractions, etc. So, even if he can go from blind to line in my back yard perfectly with some distractions, when I take it to a random field (no gunners or anything) I will take baby steps until it's perfect there; starting all over again from the beginning with each new location, but knowing I'll be able to move a little quicker as time goes on. It'll take time to go from "this is what we do" to "this is what we do now" because I have allowed him to be rewarded (the line to the bird) for less than stellar behavior, mostly because the pulling wasn't bad (it was just the disconnect) and I was focusing too much on technical marks (the fun stuff!), not behavior, partly because he is not that bad so I didn't recognize it as an issue.

    It would be difficult for me to ask my dog to work, have success and not give him the reward (the bird). And I am not sure what the purpose would be in doing that. I might ask for the dog to leave the final blind, do a little obedience or some fun obedience tricks on the way to the line (I'd have to build up to that, of course, but the goal would be that we may go straight to the line, we may not, we may just walk over here or do something else or go back to the blind or do a trick or two -- but ultimately I would communicate that he WILL get what he wants, just after he does what I want!) and then when we successfully make it to the line he consistently gets his reward. For us it's getting to the line -- final blind to line -- and not blind to bird where we have work to do.

    I don't think I'd get to the line, have the bird come down and then ask for obedience work, re-line and send. I'm also not sure that a dog could easily or successfully mark a 75-100 yard mark, do some obedience work, then re-line and get sent for the mark and have success in cover, water and mud plus any huge distractions like gunners, blinds, dead ducks, scent, the gallery, trucks, etc. In a relatively featureless field, like a mowed school yard, that could probably work, but the picture is very, very different. I'm also teaching my dog to be solid on his marks, no head swinging and no looking up at me before the send. I want him to mark, wait and go when sent with a perfect line out and back. If I create a habit of mark, look up and go, that could be a problem (actually it already is and I'm in remedial marking at the moment).

    So, those are my thoughts...for now anyway.

  10. #20
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    Well, I don't know. I think heeling to the line is going to be my written homework this week for core concept skills progression. I can share what I have with you once I have submitted it and have received feedback. Our dogs are different, so there's that. I think yours would be more prone to frustration and end up making more noise and mine might be more prone to loss of motivation and end up becoming slow and possibly show avoidance behaviors. I agree. And "momentum" was always Bridget's failing. Maybe not to the degree of yours, (she got her MH) but I can visualize your problem. So, your goal is more along the line of holding your dog back, but without built up frustration and losing her mind and my goal is controlling my dog in an over-aroused state without destroying his motivation and drive. Or, something like that. Right.

    Thinking out loud here... My thought is that I would start slower, easier, and build on that. I would get my criteria in order get it perfect without the distractions and build on that -- adding distractions and duration, possibly distance, too -- and only reward for criteria. With each progression, I will make it easy to start. Start in the yard, add distractions, go to a random field, add distractions, etc. So, even if he can go from blind to line in my back yard perfectly with some distractions, when I take it to a random field (no gunners or anything) I will take baby steps until it's perfect there; starting all over again from the beginning with each new location, but knowing I'll be able to move a little quicker as time goes on. Problem here is... in setting 1, with distractions A, and B... we're good. Setting 2 with A and B... good. Same setting add another distraction... good. And so on until she falls apart. Yes, I can go slower, more incremental. But when she picks her moment, she crashes and burns. (Like "I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE!!!) It'll take time to go from "this is what we do" to "this is what we do now" because I have allowed him to be rewarded (the line to the bird) for less than stellar behavior, mostly because the pulling wasn't bad (it was just the disconnect) and I was focusing too much on technical marks (the fun stuff!), not behavior, partly because he is not that bad so I didn't recognize it as an issue. Uh huh. Like, now we're steady... and it's only a little squeeking. D'Oh!

    It would be difficult for me to ask my dog to work, have success and not give him the reward (the bird). See below. And I am not sure what the purpose would be in doing that. I might ask for the dog to leave the final blind, do a little obedience or some fun obedience tricks on the way to the line (I'd have to build up to that, of course, but the goal would be that we may go straight to the line, we may not, we may just walk over here or do something else or go back to the blind or do a trick or two -- but ultimately I would communicate that he WILL get what he wants, just after he does what I want!) and then when we successfully make it to the line he consistently gets his reward. For us it's getting to the line -- final blind to line -- and not blind to bird where we have work to do.

    I don't think I'd get to the line, have the bird come down and then ask for obedience work, re-line and send. I'm also not sure that a dog could easily or successfully mark a 75-100 yard mark, do some obedience work, then re-line and get sent for the mark and have success in cover, water and mud plus any huge distractions like gunners, blinds, dead ducks, scent, the gallery, trucks, etc. Yeah, but we can deal with that by focusing on the easiest mark in a triple set up. In a relatively featureless field, like a mowed school yard, that could probably work, but the picture is very, very different. I'm also teaching my dog to be solid on his marks, no head swinging and no looking up at me before the send. I want him to mark, wait and go when sent with a perfect line out and back. If I create a habit of mark, look up and go, that could be a problem (actually it already is and I'm in remedial marking at the moment.)

    So, those are my thoughts...for now anyway.
    So today, simpler setting (cut grass) same visual stimulus (hubby waving a bumper.) Added "hey-hey" (no throw.) Squeek, squeek. Back to the holding blind. More obedience. Go to "line". Wave bumper... "hey-hey". OK, good. Did this a few times, with Ob in between. Nice and quiet. Had hubby toss. Squeek, squeek. Back to the blind.

    I thought, just give it one more time. PERFECT! Uh oh, now what do I do? I let her have the mark. Getting that one mark, and she totally freaked out with squeeking. So we picked it up and came home.

    Now... it's dinner. I put a handful of kibble on the step. We heeled to the "line" (5-6 yards away). Squeek, squeek. I just heeled away, and back to line. Waited. Took a couple steps forward. And a few more. Squeek. Back to heeling and so on.

    AND HERE WAS THE REVELATION!!! The next time around, she stopped herself in mid-squeek. Finally we could heel to food in 2' increments and wait-wait-wait, NO SQUEEK.

    The point is, she stopped herself. She knows exactly what she's been doing. I just stopped yelling "QUIET" at her. By the last handful of kibble, not only was there no squeek, her panting was gone. She had her mouth closed. She looked more relaxed.

    I DID let her have the food. (Naturally) I suppose in a field setting, if I see the same effort at relaxed waiting... I have to give her the mark.

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