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    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
      Yeah, I’ve honestly seen WAY more dog-on-dog incidents outside the ring than in, and all this will do will further encourage people to bring nasty untrained dogs to shows. I’ve been showing in Obedience for 20+ years now, and I can count on one had the number of times I’ve seen a dog interfered with and NONE erupted into actual violence - more just a dog stood over another dog who then broke or the like. Not to say it never happens, as clearly it does judging by what happened at the Classic but I feel like the risk is very overstated. My trainer who is an AKC judge thinks the problem is both unprepared dogs as well as judges who are afraid to intervene at the earliest signs of trouble. She’ll excuse a dog for eyeballing another dog, even if it hasn’t gotten up yet, but most either don’t know what to look for or are afraid of handlers being upset and saying “but he didn’t DO anything”. She doesn’t care what people think of her, so will do it anyway, but not all judges are like that.

      I’ll be interested to see what she has heard about the replacement exercise (we have class tonight). There’s a local judge that trains with us sometimes who is on the committee, so maybe we’ll hear something. It sounds like a signal exercise to me (which would replace stays in that it shows the dog understands staying in place even during position changes) but it could also be interpreted as leave the dog in a stand, come back and reposition, leave them again, repeat, etc. Which would be pretty redundant to the business at the end about leaving them in a sit, going to the entrance coming back and repositioning and then leaving them in a down while you get the leash.

      Either way, even my young dogs can do signals (although if it involves a stand from a distance I’ll have to teach that even to Chloe), but what I wonder is how much more time this is going to add to the judges workload and how long are the classes going to go. Seems like this could add enough more than enough time per dog to be greater than the time involved in the group exercises.
      It does seem like a long ring time in the ring with the changes, but hard to say with such little detail. Anyway, I welcome an interesting change. The stays are risky and boring. If dogs gets into it outside of the ring, at least the owners are there to deal with it right away.

      Linus knows stand from a distance; it was super easy to teach. I practice his signals all the time while I'm cooking in the kitchen and it was easier just to teach him to stand versus resetting him all the time. It does not affect signals when I am practicing them formally.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
      If dogs gets into it outside of the ring, at least the owners are there to deal with it right away.
      If only they would. I know a few people with reactive dogs who handle them correctly, but there are many CLUELESS people out there. For example, the ones who put their crate aggressive dog crated right next to the ring then complain when people warm up next to them. If your dog is crate aggressive, show out of the car (weather permitting) or at least crate them in a back corner where there will be less traffic. But no, they have to be front and center. And I see stuff like this over and over and over again. Drives me freaking nuts! Or the ones who are mindlessly chatting and not paying attention to the fact their dog is wandering over and getting in another dogs space who is trying to work and might not appreciate the interruption ...
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    3. #13
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      Sounds chaotic and crowded.

      I was at a FT last May. There was a live flier that was dropped in the water (running water) maybe 50 yards in front of the dogs, a long mark on land to the right, and the long difficult mark to the left. They were thrown left, right, middle. And there was an honor. A young dog did a spectacular job, the crowd was applauding. The dog then honored while the birds went down. The working dog was sent, the honor dog excused... the pro turned to take his dog to the truck and POW... that young dog took off after the flier trying to race the working dog to it. They almost arrived at the same time and in the that running water, there was a fight over the flier. It was too far away for handlers to do a damn thing about it. Very scary.

      No damage was done... but you can be sure there was a meeting of the FT committee.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
      Sounds chaotic and crowded.

      I was at a FT last May. There was a live flier that was dropped in the water (running water) maybe 50 yards in front of the dogs, a long mark on land to the right, and the long difficult mark to the left. They were thrown left, right, middle. And there was an honor. A young dog did a spectacular job, the crowd was applauding. The dog then honored while the birds went down. The working dog was sent, the honor dog excused... the pro turned to take his dog to the truck and POW... that young dog took off after the flier trying to race the working dog to it. They almost arrived at the same time and in the that running water, there was a fight over the flier. It was too far away for handlers to do a damn thing about it. Very scary.

      No damage was done... but you can be sure there was a meeting of the FT committee.
      That would be scary! You’d hope there would be a meeting of the trial committee and I guess sometimes there is, but part of it is if something happens outside the ring, it’s not always clear who is at fault, plus as I said, most of what I see is “get out of my space” snarking, not actual fighting. Usually a clueless or distracted owner lets their dog get into another dog’s face who being in a cramped area on a short leash doesn’t appreciate it. Not sure that warrants having the “reactive” dog thrown out of all AKC competition, and of course the person whose dog instigated wouldn’t be the one in trouble although they should be considered to be at fault. The rare occasions that I’ve heard of where there was an actual fight, there was a trial committee meeting and discipline, but as I said, I’ve been doing this 20 years and really have only seen something like that once (and it was two breed Labs at a Specialty - an adult male severely bit a puppy bitch in the leg, not at an Obedience trial).

      Generally people (including judges) are reluctant to get a dog in trouble if there is any ambiguity to what happened. For example, there was a local daschund known for snapping at people at matches, who had even snapped at (but not made contact with) a judge. That judge should have reported it, but the owner begged and gave some excuse so they didn’t. Dog went on to actually bite a judge at a show I was at. That judge had no idea the dog was a problem because no one had reported it. The dog received a 6 month suspension but has since been retired.

      The other thing with banning stays is, stuff can happen in the ring that has nothing to do with stays ... a friend was showing her GSD in Utility B this past weekend and a Pharaoh Hound in Beginner Novice got the zoomies on the recall and jumped the ring gate into her ring. Fortunately the Pharaoh Hound wasn’t being aggressive, just excited and her GSD is well trained with a stable, friendly disposition so nothing happened, but had either dog had a different personality and/or training it could have been much worse.

      I think the bigger problem is people entering dogs who haven’t been adequately trained and prepared for the situation, and I don’t think banning out of sight stays will do anything to help that.

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    6. #15
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      I'd be even more worried about my dog getting blamed at something like an obedience trial simply 'cause she'd likely be the bigger dog.

      But the bottom line is that at the field sports events, there is basically zero tolerance. I mean, hackles and a snarl would get the attention of a marshal, especially if the handler seemed clueless. Anyhow, if some dog fight happens the marshal goes to the event committee and it's not in the hands of the judges at all (unless the judge witnessed the event and the committee needs their input.)

      I don't know for sure, but my guess would be if people knew the behavioral standards were high and the consequences very costly, you'd have fewer clueless handlers.
      Last edited by TuMicks; 09-14-2017 at 04:39 PM.

    7. #16
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      But they are claiming it is fitting to replace the Stays. That's my biggest gripe about it. I too would give my dogs a Wait when leaving them to do signals. Hence, it's not a stay....


      Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
      Honestly though, signals are one of the easiest things to teach. The trouble dogs have with it has nothing to do with the signal and everything to do with working at a distance, so if you are used to that from field it should be no big deal. We suspect (but of course no one knows) that the distance will be shorter and may allow verbals. When I teach it I use “wait” not “stay”. Stay means don’t move until I return to you, wait means don’t move until I give you something else to do. I correct even the slightest amount of creeping on signals (and initially teach it so that they have to step backwards as they do them), so I don’t think it would erode stays, but it is something you have to be consistent with. I can see for people who don’t ever teach Utility, it might seem like a big change, but really, don’t let it discourage you from showing - I promise your dogs will have no trouble with it!
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    8. #17
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      Also trying to figure out the usefulness of changing the position from a down or sit to a stand in real life at a distance. Oh... wait, just forget that rambling from the practical thinking side of me. I won't be doing trick dog events either.

    9. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
      Also trying to figure out the usefulness of changing the position from a down or sit to a stand in real life at a distance. Oh... wait, just forget that rambling from the practical thinking side of me. I won't be doing trick dog events either.
      No more useless than jumping a broad jump only to come around and front on the side of it!

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    11. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
      No more useless than jumping a broad jump only to come around and front on the side of it!
      That's funny because I mentioned that as a PS in my letter to the AKC BOD today. Dumbest.Exercise.Ever that someone dreamed up.

      My main suggestion to them was to impose at least a suspension of dogs who were out of control (the aggressive dogs are already addressed but OOC ones just get excused for the rest of the class... and can go right back in the next trial which may be that afternoon). I'd like to see a 2 mo "grounding" of sorts, sending them home to Train!

      I feel very very sorry for all the judges who spent a lot of money to become licensed to deal w/ all the BS AKC is handing them right now. Most are paid only $150 - 200 per day-- hardly a lot of money when you look at the hours they spend preparing Rally courses too. The Rally changes are abolutely horrific imo (I also let them know I've probably done my last RE w/ the latest Dancey signs being added). I know of at least one very very good obed/ rally judge who told me today that she seriously was thinking about quitting. AKC never consulted their own judges w/ the changes!!! This just makes me so irate because it is the judges who likely have the best perspective of what is or is not needed as far as change.

    12. #20
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      Well if you decide to quit Ob and/or rally, you'll have lots of time for HT's

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