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    1. #1
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      They finally came out with the proposed changes to Obedience

      Here’s the link to what was announced. Still need more details on what exactly some of this will look like.
      Personally, I’ve never had a problem with out of sight stays, but I guess there were some very vocal people who didn’t like them.

      http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/obe...937.1443395801
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    2. #2
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      Are there advisory committees to which AKC clubs address suggestions for changes?

    3. #3
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      I'm glad. I don't feel comfortable leaving my dog with a bunch of strange dogs who might be untrained/unproofed, stressed, nervous, etc., let alone aggressive or a bully. I don't think it's fair to the dogs who might be approached, humped, attacked, pissed on, stood over or whatever. I'm looking forward to more information.

    4. #4
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      Poorly written document. I have NO idea what they are proposing on the Stand, Sit, Down thing, do you Annette? Neither does the one local obed judge. Some people think it's a signal type exercise and if so, how is that to replace the Stays? Not a happy camper here. I think I can legitimately gripe having finished 9 CDXs total (6 generations worth) since 2001.... The rules haven't changed since ~1998, so why now??? Because people think nothing of taking poorly prepared and/or poorly tempered dogs to OBEDIENCE trials. JMO. The rules don't need changing, the people competing may though. Spoke to a couple old timers last weekend at a Lab club function who did a fair amount of obed and they too said it was rare that there were scuffles back in their day too. Sad day for obed imo.
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    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
      Are there advisory committees to which AKC clubs address suggestions for changes?
      Yes, there is an obedience advisory committee. They allowed feedback several months ago.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
      Poorly written document. I have NO idea what they are proposing on the Stand, Sit, Down thing, do you Annette? Neither does the one local obed judge. Some people think it's a signal type exercise and if so, how is that to replace the Stays? Not a happy camper here. I think I can legitimately gripe having finished 9 CDXs total (6 generations worth) since 2001.... The rules haven't changed since ~1998, so why now??? Because people think nothing of taking poorly prepared and/or poorly tempered dogs to OBEDIENCE trials. JMO. The rules don't need changing, the people competing may though. Spoke to a couple old timers last weekend at a Lab club function who did a fair amount of obed and they too said it was rare that there were scuffles back in their day too. Sad day for obed imo.
      Yeah, I’ve honestly seen WAY more dog-on-dog incidents outside the ring than in, and all this will do will further encourage people to bring nasty untrained dogs to shows. I’ve been showing in Obedience for 20+ years now, and I can count on one had the number of times I’ve seen a dog interfered with and NONE erupted into actual violence - more just a dog stood over another dog who then broke or the like. Not to say it never happens, as clearly it does judging by what happened at the Classic but I feel like the risk is very overstated. My trainer who is an AKC judge thinks the problem is both unprepared dogs as well as judges who are afraid to intervene at the earliest signs of trouble. She’ll excuse a dog for eyeballing another dog, even if it hasn’t gotten up yet, but most either don’t know what to look for or are afraid of handlers being upset and saying “but he didn’t DO anything”. She doesn’t care what people think of her, so will do it anyway, but not all judges are like that.

      I’ll be interested to see what she has heard about the replacement exercise (we have class tonight). There’s a local judge that trains with us sometimes who is on the committee, so maybe we’ll hear something. It sounds like a signal exercise to me (which would replace stays in that it shows the dog understands staying in place even during position changes) but it could also be interpreted as leave the dog in a stand, come back and reposition, leave them again, repeat, etc. Which would be pretty redundant to the business at the end about leaving them in a sit, going to the entrance coming back and repositioning and then leaving them in a down while you get the leash.

      Either way, even my young dogs can do signals (although if it involves a stand from a distance I’ll have to teach that even to Chloe), but what I wonder is how much more time this is going to add to the judges workload and how long are the classes going to go. Seems like this could add enough more than enough time per dog to be greater than the time involved in the group exercises.

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      windycanyon (09-13-2017)

    8. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
      Yeah, I’ve honestly seen WAY more dog-on-dog incidents outside the ring than in, and all this will do will further encourage people to bring nasty untrained dogs to shows. I’ve been showing in Obedience for 20+ years now, and I can count on one had the number of times I’ve seen a dog interfered with and NONE erupted into actual violence - more just a dog stood over another dog who then broke or the like. Not to say it never happens, as clearly it does judging by what happened at the Classic but I feel like the risk is very overstated. My trainer who is an AKC judge thinks the problem is both unprepared dogs as well as judges who are afraid to intervene at the earliest signs of trouble. She’ll excuse a dog for eyeballing another dog, even if it hasn’t gotten up yet, but most either don’t know what to look for or are afraid of handlers being upset and saying “but he didn’t DO anything”. She doesn’t care what people think of her, so will do it anyway, but not all judges are like that.

      I’ll be interested to see what she has heard about the replacement exercise (we have class tonight). There’s a local judge that trains with us sometimes who is on the committee, so maybe we’ll hear something. It sounds like a signal exercise to me (which would replace stays in that it shows the dog understands staying in place even during position changes) but it could also be interpreted as leave the dog in a stand, come back and reposition, leave them again, repeat, etc. Which would be pretty redundant to the business at the end about leaving them in a sit, going to the entrance coming back and repositioning and then leaving them in a down while you get the leash.

      Either way, even my young dogs can do signals (although if it involves a stand from a distance I’ll have to teach that even to Chloe), but what I wonder is how much more time this is going to add to the judges workload and how long are the classes going to go. Seems like this could add enough more than enough time per dog to be greater than the time involved in the group exercises.
      Totally agree except the one part..... to ME, STAY means STAY. Don't move a muscle when I'm away from you. So a position change (signal type exercise) w/ handler at distance doesn't truly fit that criteria in my mind and I feel it'll actually erode a normal stay thru creeping or whatever. Seems to be duplicating the signal UD exercise if so too.... I think AKC is going to lose folks over this as to me, the usefulness of the CDX title is going to be lessened but I don't do UDs on my dogs so really don't care much about teaching signals.

      And now that they've bastardized the Rally Exc class w/ all the new "dancey" signs, they probably got the last of my $$$ there too. I guess I'm just getting old and crotchety, but I get sick and tired of all the changes lately to something that WAS working for 99% of us!!! This is my 20th year for obed comp too, btw! Gala was my Nov A dog for a whopping 10 days back in spring of 1997!!!! dang.

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      Annette47 (09-13-2017)

    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
      I feel it'll actually erode a normal stay thru creeping or whatever. Seems to be duplicating the signal UD exercise if so too.... I think AKC is going to lose folks over this as to me, the usefulness of the CDX title is going to be lessened but I don't do UDs on my dogs so really don't care much about teaching signals.
      Honestly though, signals are one of the easiest things to teach. The trouble dogs have with it has nothing to do with the signal and everything to do with working at a distance, so if you are used to that from field it should be no big deal. We suspect (but of course no one knows) that the distance will be shorter and may allow verbals. When I teach it I use “wait” not “stay”. Stay means don’t move until I return to you, wait means don’t move until I give you something else to do. I correct even the slightest amount of creeping on signals (and initially teach it so that they have to step backwards as they do them), so I don’t think it would erode stays, but it is something you have to be consistent with. I can see for people who don’t ever teach Utility, it might seem like a big change, but really, don’t let it discourage you from showing - I promise your dogs will have no trouble with it!

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    12. #9
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      Whoa, whoa, whoa... Just a minute. I might need you guys to explain something to me. No. Amend that. I know you have to explain it.

      So, are you saying that dogs at obedience trials/events are (on occasion) picking fights with one another? I mean, like there is dog-on-dog aggression anywhere on the grounds?
      In HT's and FT's, if something like that were to happen: #1. The marshal would have to report it to the HT/FT committee. #2. The committee is then required to investigate exactly what happened. It's a major big hairy deal. If it was unprovoked, that dog is off the trial grounds PDQ. Either or both the involved dogs might be asked to leave. An aggressive dog can, at the discretion of the committee be reported to the AKC, AND... if it happens a second time, it's over for that dog and it can never participate in another AKC event. (I used to think it meant ALL AKC events, but maybe it's just field sports, I don't know.)

      Is this not the case in the Ob ring/events?

    13. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
      Whoa, whoa, whoa... Just a minute. I might need you guys to explain something to me. No. Amend that. I know you have to explain it.

      So, are you saying that dogs at obedience trials/events are (on occasion) picking fights with one another? I mean, like there is dog-on-dog aggression anywhere on the grounds?
      In HT's and FT's, if something like that were to happen: #1. The marshal would have to report it to the HT/FT committee. #2. The committee is then required to investigate exactly what happened. It's a major big hairy deal. If it was unprovoked, that dog is off the trial grounds PDQ. Either or both the involved dogs might be asked to leave. An aggressive dog can, at the discretion of the committee be reported to the AKC, AND... if it happens a second time, it's over for that dog and it can never participate in another AKC event. (I used to think it meant ALL AKC events, but maybe it's just field sports, I don't know.)

      Is this not the case in the Ob ring/events?
      It is the case IF it gets reported, which many incidents which don’t draw blood aren’t. Honestly though, when people complain about their dog being “attacked” and you question them, sometimes it’s more that they were approached or stood over or the like. In my experience, true dog-on-dog aggression (as opposed to just “back off” snarking which doesn’t make contact) is pretty rare. One thing to remember though, is unlike field trials, there are a wide variety of breeds at Obedience trials, many of which are not as comfortable around other dogs as many sporting breeds are. You’re much less likely to see that sort of thing at a Lab Speciality than at a terrier show, for example.

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