Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 43
  1. #11
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    C. WA
    Posts
    1,624
    Thanked: 1235
    I'm going to say some unpopular things here to some. The show breeders have been guilty, along w/ the field breeders, of parting ways from the STANDARD. I mean really, have ya'll seen some of the heads, coats and bodies lately in both venues?

    It's a cluster****. I just had my 18 mo old in for a rabies vax this past week. My vet used to breed / show / do obed etc Labs. She mentioned wanting to do a CC w/ her 5 yo (I think, maybe 7- 8 now, lol!). Very nice conformation but... like my Kanzi, under height (actually smaller than Kanzi) so will be DQd. She was a little surprised that the CC judges will wicket-- yes, out here in the NW if our NW LRC rep (who we all love and respect) is a judge, you betcha! What ticks me off is Kanzi is the same size as so many bitches being shown currently in the ring!

    So as Shelley said above, many judges (sorry Shelley but the specialty/ breeder types are even worse!) aren't judging by the LRC standard, though I am seeing a slight turn around in preferences. Why else are so many of the BOB, BOW's coming from the puppy classes?

    And the HEADS on both ends of the extreme spectrum, sorry but SO incorrect!!!!! We have Labs looking like freaking Mastiffs w/ weird shaped eyes (appear both entropic and ectropic at the same time), w/ heavy jowls, tons of bone, and huge dripping coats (very much NOT an easy keeper for a hunter) winning the points. And then there are the field dogs w/ round, light "doe" eyes, NO front (pointer like straight), no double coat as the whippet tail would show.

    It is what it is... JMO and I'm sticking to it.

    PS, So glad the chemo is treating you okay!!!!!! Been keeping you in my prayers though I'm not on that often!


    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    It's just frustrating. The breed (our breed) is cleaning up in all the field sports. We're hugely competitive in the Obedience ring. Lab breeders are doing everything right. I'm just sitting here watching Youtube and feeling like the football fanatic who sees the referees give their team one bad call after another. (Not a perfect analogy, but you get my drift.) I keep thinking "We was robbed."
    Last edited by windycanyon; 08-12-2018 at 07:20 PM. Reason: added a ps to TuMicks
    Hidden Content
    The WindyCanyon Girls (taken Summer 2018)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX RA JH OA OAJ CC (14.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Ruby Pink BN CD RA CC (4.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Kanzi BN CDX RE JH (5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon ItsOnlyMoneyHoneycrisp BN RN CC (16mos)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Pippin BN RI CC (2.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Envy CDX RE JH CC (10.5 yrs)
    IntCH HIT WindyCanyon's Kiku A Fuji Too CDX RE JH CC (10 yrs)







  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to windycanyon For This Useful Post:

    Annette47 (08-13-2018), barry581 (08-13-2018)

  3. #12
    Chief Pooper Scooper JenC's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,598
    Thanked: 2588
    For as much as I love my labs, they are kind of the "generic" DOG to me. They are perfectly plain. That's not a bad thing. Get the perfectly balanced bitch and she is exquisite.

  4. #13
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,947
    Thanked: 2421
    While Labs are killing it in the field (though not Labs bred to standard and in some cases, not very Lab-like Labs) I was disappointed in the AKC numbers that came out a couple weeks ago. Goldens are really kicking our butts in obedience and many other sports... I think Labs are doing well in nosework in addition to field work. We still have some top Labs doing well, thank goodness. Flashy heeling is really popular and the Labs are not as good at it as the Goldens and other breeds. I think that's part of it...

  5. #14
    Senior Dog
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    2,603
    Thanked: 2277
    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    While Labs are killing it in the field (though not Labs bred to standard and in some cases, not very Lab-like Labs) I was disappointed in the AKC numbers that came out a couple weeks ago. Goldens are really kicking our butts in obedience and many other sports... I think Labs are doing well in nosework in addition to field work. We still have some top Labs doing well, thank goodness. Flashy heeling is really popular and the Labs are not as good at it as the Goldens and other breeds. I think that's part of it...
    Part of why Goldens are doing so well is there are many more of them competing, at least around here. The Labs around here (the few, the proud!) can certainly hold their own against the Goldens and the Border Collies and it’s got nothing to with flashy heeling. Goldens tend to be an “easier” dog to work with than Labs as they (as a breed, obviously there are exceptions) tend to be more forgiving of bad handling. They keep trying even when the handler is inconsistent while Labs have more of a mind of their own, which when you get them to apply it makes them excellent workers (I would argue that a good Lab is even “flashier” than most Goldens) but they are more easily distracted into not giving it their all unless managed properly.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

    Hidden Content

  6. #15
    House Broken
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mn
    Posts
    201
    Thanked: 147
    I have to agree with Annette - the reason that goldens are kicking lab butt in obedience is due to the # competing. There simply aren't many labs showing in obedience. I live in a very busy area for obedience and I often have the only lab at the trial, especially true if you are looking at the upper level classes.

    I do think golden breeders do a better job breeding for versatile working ability. There is a higher demand for working goldens than labs. They still have a huge split in the breed but in general, I feel like their dogs are more accomplished in performance venues than many of the labradors. Of course, that applies to non-field sports Our labs still rule there, no question!

    There are some awesome working labradors out there, just not many compared to the number of goldens in the sport.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to indybindy For This Useful Post:

    Annette47 (08-13-2018)

  8. #16
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,947
    Thanked: 2421
    Quote Originally Posted by indybindy View Post
    I have to agree with Annette - the reason that goldens are kicking lab butt in obedience is due to the # competing. There simply aren't many labs showing in obedience. I live in a very busy area for obedience and I often have the only lab at the trial, especially true if you are looking at the upper level classes.

    I do think golden breeders do a better job breeding for versatile working ability. There is a higher demand for working goldens than labs. They still have a huge split in the breed but in general, I feel like their dogs are more accomplished in performance venues than many of the labradors. Of course, that applies to non-field sports Our labs still rule there, no question!

    There are some awesome working labradors out there, just not many compared to the number of goldens in the sport.
    I mean, yeah. More Goldens = better numbers. But that means that people are choosing Goldens over Labs. Which is the root of the...problem?...not sure that is the right word.

    I had such a hard time finding a Lab litter that had strong bitch lines AND a sire that was more than conformation with a JH and a CD. I nearly got a Golden and there were so many GREAT breeders and litters to choose from. They do a great job of being successful in many venues. It was not hard to find an OTCH/MH/CH sire AND bitch litter. My next dog may very well be a Golden, but I want to do more research and figure out the lines I really like (temperament AND health because the cancer thing is bad) before going there.

    In regards to forgiveness, yes, that is something that we don't necessarily have with the Labs. On the other hand, working with a dog that is TOO forgiving has it's own set of issues and requires a different type of management.

  9. #17
    House Broken
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mn
    Posts
    201
    Thanked: 147
    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I mean, yeah. More Goldens = better numbers. But that means that people are choosing Goldens over Labs. Which is the root of the...problem?...not sure that is the right word.

    I had such a hard time finding a Lab litter that had strong bitch lines AND a sire that was more than conformation with a JH and a CD. I nearly got a Golden and there were so many GREAT breeders and litters to choose from. They do a great job of being successful in many venues. It was not hard to find an OTCH/MH/CH sire AND bitch litter. My next dog may very well be a Golden, but I want to do more research and figure out the lines I really like (temperament AND health because the cancer thing is bad) before going there.
    Exactly - finding labradors like your new puppy (or any versatile working dog) are hard to find. Near impossible!

    Goldens are more popular in obedience for many reasons - but availability of nicely bred working dogs has to be a big part of that.

    I took a chance and bought a well bred field trial dog. The dog's parents/relatives have never done obedience, agility, etc but I figured that as long as the dog had the brains/work ethic to do a job, then I could train the rest. Just doing my part to create a versatile labrador, haha

    AND, now I realize that we are totally off topic as to why labradors are not winning against other breeds in the conformation ring. But it is similar to what we are seeing in other venues, I guess!

  10. #18
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,366
    Thanked: 1096
    I'm sorta struggling here to express my thoughts because I obviously know little about this. I'm crazy about Ram Jet Rocket Dog but she's a conformation disaster. She has one thing, though, that I wish you could see in Labs in the conformation ring and maybe obedience. And that is intensity.

    We all know how Border Collies are super intense when you see them in agility. That is the look of a well-bred field lab when they're on line, the guns are going off and the birds are going down. They are electric. Wowsers, when RD comes back with the go bird and is all a-tremble trying to get me to take the bird from her so she can focus on the flier... when she lines up to blast off, she has a laser eye on where she's going, she is oozing energy from every pore, contained... but ready to explode. I would NEVER suggest anyone breed a dog that looks like her. But that attitude, it's super appealing.

    First, you'd have to have a dog with winning conformation that has the DRIVE of a field dog. Coiled energy. Bright expression, head up looking for the action. Then you'd have to have a pro handler that knows how to ilicit that attitude in the ring. (And with the right training... it's not that hard!) The handler has got to do more than trot around at a pace to ilicit the right gait.

    I am not sure how you would go about it, but I think it could help to have labs that have obvious DRIVE and intensity in the conformation ring. It is the sporting group, after all, and I think that's maybe why we're being held back and not doing well beyond the Breed Ring

    PS: Not sure what year of Crufts it was... but there was an Italian bred Lab that won the Sporting group... Loch More Romeo. I think he had a little more fat on him than I'd like (but what do I know!) He took Reserve Best In Show. But I gotta say that his owner handler had him looking really excited and just on the verge of being a little out of control. I liked the way he showed the dog. They were both having a great time.
    Last edited by TuMicks; 08-16-2018 at 05:57 PM.

  11. #19
    Senior Dog Shelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,226
    Thanked: 1739
    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I'm sorta struggling here to express my thoughts because I obviously know little about this. I'm crazy about Ram Jet Rocket Dog but she's a conformation disaster. She has one thing, though, that I wish you could see in Labs in the conformation ring and maybe obedience. And that is intensity.

    We all know how Border Collies are super intense when you see them in agility. That is the look of a well-bred field lab when they're on line, the guns are going off and the birds are going down. They are electric. Wowsers, when RD comes back with the go bird and is all a-tremble trying to get me to take the bird from her so she can focus on the flier... when she lines up to blast off, she has a laser eye on where she's going, she is oozing energy from every pore, contained... but ready to explode. I would NEVER suggest anyone breed a dog that looks like her. But that attitude, it's super appealing.

    First, you'd have to have a dog with winning conformation that has the DRIVE of a field dog. Coiled energy. Bright expression, head up looking for the action. Then you'd have to have a pro handler that knows how to ilicit that attitude in the ring. (And with the right training... it's not that hard!) The handler has got to do more than trot around at a pace to ilicit the right gait.

    I am not sure how you would go about it, but I think it could help to have labs that have obvious DRIVE and intensity in the conformation ring. It is the sporting group, after all, and I think that's maybe why we're being held back and not doing well beyond the Breed Ring

    PS: Not sure what year of Crufts it was... but there was an Italian bred Lab that won the Sporting group... Loch More Romeo. I think he had a little more fat on him than I'd like (but what do I know!) He took Reserve Best In Show. But I gotta say that his owner handler had him looking really excited and just on the verge of being a little out of control. I liked the way he showed the dog. They were both having a great time.

    No where in the Breed Standard is there mention of "Intensity", they are supposed to be a calm gentleman's hunting companion, not an overly energetic Border Collie type temperament.

    Taken from the Breed Standard:
    "Temperament: True Labrador Retriever temperament is as much a hallmark of the breed as the"otter" tail. The ideal disposition is one of a kindly, outgoing, tractable nature; eager to please and non-aggressive towards man or animal. The Labrador has much that appeals to people; his gentle ways, intelligence and adaptability make him an ideal dog. Aggressiveness towards humans or other animals, or any evidence of shyness in an adult should be severely penalized."

    This is also in the general comments about the breed, "the character and quality to win in the show ring; and thetemperament to be a family companion." Still no intensity.

    Romeo had/has no extra weight on him at all, he was shown in excellent condition and weight for a working gundog, as described in the Standard.

    Just sayin'.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Shelley For This Useful Post:

    windycanyon (08-16-2018)

  13. #20
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    C. WA
    Posts
    1,624
    Thanked: 1235
    TuMicks,

    I think everyone falls in love w/ particular dogs w/ particular looks or actions. It's okay, but necessarily correct. I remember the AKC hunt test field rep describing that same "itchin to go" personality, but he was actually describing what he liked in a Chesapeake at the time.

    It may be a hard pill to swallow, but the standard is the standard. As I said before, I think both ends of the spectrum are guilty of some sins. We do have some pretty labs who quite frankly, look to struggle thru a down and back and go around... it's boring. Then you've got the breaking fool labs at the tests that imo, would not be fun to hunt with. Somewhere there has to be a middle ground on temperament and energy level. How else is it that the Lab is the chosen service dog for so many organizations?

    Do you have any of the old Labrador breed books? Actually if you were to buy just one, my favorite publication because it covers all aspects of the breed (field, show, service etc), its history, compares standards between countries, etc, is "The Versatile Labrador" by Nancy Martin. https://www.amazon.com/Versatile-Lab.../dp/0944875432
    Hidden Content
    The WindyCanyon Girls (taken Summer 2018)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX RA JH OA OAJ CC (14.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Ruby Pink BN CD RA CC (4.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Kanzi BN CDX RE JH (5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon ItsOnlyMoneyHoneycrisp BN RN CC (16mos)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Pippin BN RI CC (2.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Envy CDX RE JH CC (10.5 yrs)
    IntCH HIT WindyCanyon's Kiku A Fuji Too CDX RE JH CC (10 yrs)







 



Not a Member of the Labrador Retriever Chat Forums Yet?
Register for Free and Share Your Labrador Retriever Photos

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •