I'm going to say some unpopular things here to some. The show breeders have been guilty, along w/ the field breeders, of parting ways from the STANDARD. I mean really, have ya'll seen some of the heads, coats and bodies lately in both venues?
It's a cluster****. I just had my 18 mo old in for a rabies vax this past week. My vet used to breed / show / do obed etc Labs. She mentioned wanting to do a CC w/ her 5 yo (I think, maybe 7- 8 now, lol!). Very nice conformation but... like my Kanzi, under height (actually smaller than Kanzi) so will be DQd. She was a little surprised that the CC judges will wicket-- yes, out here in the NW if our NW LRC rep (who we all love and respect) is a judge, you betcha! What ticks me off is Kanzi is the same size as so many bitches being shown currently in the ring!
So as Shelley said above, many judges (sorry Shelley but the specialty/ breeder types are even worse!) aren't judging by the LRC standard, though I am seeing a slight turn around in preferences. Why else are so many of the BOB, BOW's coming from the puppy classes?
And the HEADS on both ends of the extreme spectrum, sorry but SO incorrect!!!!! We have Labs looking like freaking Mastiffs w/ weird shaped eyes (appear both entropic and ectropic at the same time), w/ heavy jowls, tons of bone, and huge dripping coats (very much NOT an easy keeper for a hunter) winning the points. And then there are the field dogs w/ round, light "doe" eyes, NO front (pointer like straight), no double coat as the whippet tail would show.
It is what it is... JMO and I'm sticking to it.
PS, So glad the chemo is treating you okay!!!!!! Been keeping you in my prayers though I'm not on that often!
Last edited by windycanyon; 08-12-2018 at 07:20 PM. Reason: added a ps to TuMicks
Hidden Content
The WindyCanyon Girls (taken Summer 2018)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX RA JH OA OAJ CC (14.5 yrs)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Ruby Pink BN CD RA CC (4.5 yrs)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Kanzi BN CDX RE JH (5 yrs)
IntCH WindyCanyon ItsOnlyMoneyHoneycrisp BN RN CC (16mos)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Pippin BN RI CC (2.5 yrs)IntCH WindyCanyon's Envy CDX RE JH CC (10.5 yrs)
IntCH HIT WindyCanyon's Kiku A Fuji Too CDX RE JH CC (10 yrs)
For as much as I love my labs, they are kind of the "generic" DOG to me. They are perfectly plain. That's not a bad thing. Get the perfectly balanced bitch and she is exquisite.
Jen
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While Labs are killing it in the field (though not Labs bred to standard and in some cases, not very Lab-like Labs) I was disappointed in the AKC numbers that came out a couple weeks ago. Goldens are really kicking our butts in obedience and many other sports... I think Labs are doing well in nosework in addition to field work. We still have some top Labs doing well, thank goodness. Flashy heeling is really popular and the Labs are not as good at it as the Goldens and other breeds. I think that's part of it...
Part of why Goldens are doing so well is there are many more of them competing, at least around here. The Labs around here (the few, the proud!) can certainly hold their own against the Goldens and the Border Collies and it’s got nothing to with flashy heeling. Goldens tend to be an “easier” dog to work with than Labs as they (as a breed, obviously there are exceptions) tend to be more forgiving of bad handling. They keep trying even when the handler is inconsistent while Labs have more of a mind of their own, which when you get them to apply it makes them excellent workers (I would argue that a good Lab is even “flashier” than most Goldens) but they are more easily distracted into not giving it their all unless managed properly.
Annette
Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009
And remembering:
Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015
And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014
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I have to agree with Annette - the reason that goldens are kicking lab butt in obedience is due to the # competing. There simply aren't many labs showing in obedience. I live in a very busy area for obedience and I often have the only lab at the trial, especially true if you are looking at the upper level classes.
I do think golden breeders do a better job breeding for versatile working ability. There is a higher demand for working goldens than labs. They still have a huge split in the breed but in general, I feel like their dogs are more accomplished in performance venues than many of the labradors. Of course, that applies to non-field sports Our labs still rule there, no question!
There are some awesome working labradors out there, just not many compared to the number of goldens in the sport.
Annette47 (08-13-2018)
I mean, yeah. More Goldens = better numbers. But that means that people are choosing Goldens over Labs. Which is the root of the...problem?...not sure that is the right word.
I had such a hard time finding a Lab litter that had strong bitch lines AND a sire that was more than conformation with a JH and a CD. I nearly got a Golden and there were so many GREAT breeders and litters to choose from. They do a great job of being successful in many venues. It was not hard to find an OTCH/MH/CH sire AND bitch litter. My next dog may very well be a Golden, but I want to do more research and figure out the lines I really like (temperament AND health because the cancer thing is bad) before going there.
In regards to forgiveness, yes, that is something that we don't necessarily have with the Labs. On the other hand, working with a dog that is TOO forgiving has it's own set of issues and requires a different type of management.
Exactly - finding labradors like your new puppy (or any versatile working dog) are hard to find. Near impossible!
Goldens are more popular in obedience for many reasons - but availability of nicely bred working dogs has to be a big part of that.
I took a chance and bought a well bred field trial dog. The dog's parents/relatives have never done obedience, agility, etc but I figured that as long as the dog had the brains/work ethic to do a job, then I could train the rest. Just doing my part to create a versatile labrador, haha
AND, now I realize that we are totally off topic as to why labradors are not winning against other breeds in the conformation ring. But it is similar to what we are seeing in other venues, I guess!
I'm sorta struggling here to express my thoughts because I obviously know little about this. I'm crazy about Ram Jet Rocket Dog but she's a conformation disaster. She has one thing, though, that I wish you could see in Labs in the conformation ring and maybe obedience. And that is intensity.
We all know how Border Collies are super intense when you see them in agility. That is the look of a well-bred field lab when they're on line, the guns are going off and the birds are going down. They are electric. Wowsers, when RD comes back with the go bird and is all a-tremble trying to get me to take the bird from her so she can focus on the flier... when she lines up to blast off, she has a laser eye on where she's going, she is oozing energy from every pore, contained... but ready to explode. I would NEVER suggest anyone breed a dog that looks like her. But that attitude, it's super appealing.
First, you'd have to have a dog with winning conformation that has the DRIVE of a field dog. Coiled energy. Bright expression, head up looking for the action. Then you'd have to have a pro handler that knows how to ilicit that attitude in the ring. (And with the right training... it's not that hard!) The handler has got to do more than trot around at a pace to ilicit the right gait.
I am not sure how you would go about it, but I think it could help to have labs that have obvious DRIVE and intensity in the conformation ring. It is the sporting group, after all, and I think that's maybe why we're being held back and not doing well beyond the Breed Ring
PS: Not sure what year of Crufts it was... but there was an Italian bred Lab that won the Sporting group... Loch More Romeo. I think he had a little more fat on him than I'd like (but what do I know!) He took Reserve Best In Show. But I gotta say that his owner handler had him looking really excited and just on the verge of being a little out of control. I liked the way he showed the dog. They were both having a great time.
Last edited by TuMicks; 08-16-2018 at 05:57 PM.
No where in the Breed Standard is there mention of "Intensity", they are supposed to be a calm gentleman's hunting companion, not an overly energetic Border Collie type temperament.
Taken from the Breed Standard:
"Temperament: True Labrador Retriever temperament is as much a hallmark of the breed as the"otter" tail. The ideal disposition is one of a kindly, outgoing, tractable nature; eager to please and non-aggressive towards man or animal. The Labrador has much that appeals to people; his gentle ways, intelligence and adaptability make him an ideal dog. Aggressiveness towards humans or other animals, or any evidence of shyness in an adult should be severely penalized."
This is also in the general comments about the breed, "the character and quality to win in the show ring; and thetemperament to be a family companion." Still no intensity.
Romeo had/has no extra weight on him at all, he was shown in excellent condition and weight for a working gundog, as described in the Standard.
Just sayin'.
windycanyon (08-16-2018)
TuMicks,
I think everyone falls in love w/ particular dogs w/ particular looks or actions. It's okay, but necessarily correct. I remember the AKC hunt test field rep describing that same "itchin to go" personality, but he was actually describing what he liked in a Chesapeake at the time.
It may be a hard pill to swallow, but the standard is the standard. As I said before, I think both ends of the spectrum are guilty of some sins. We do have some pretty labs who quite frankly, look to struggle thru a down and back and go around... it's boring. Then you've got the breaking fool labs at the tests that imo, would not be fun to hunt with. Somewhere there has to be a middle ground on temperament and energy level. How else is it that the Lab is the chosen service dog for so many organizations?
Do you have any of the old Labrador breed books? Actually if you were to buy just one, my favorite publication because it covers all aspects of the breed (field, show, service etc), its history, compares standards between countries, etc, is "The Versatile Labrador" by Nancy Martin. https://www.amazon.com/Versatile-Lab.../dp/0944875432
Hidden Content
The WindyCanyon Girls (taken Summer 2018)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX RA JH OA OAJ CC (14.5 yrs)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Ruby Pink BN CD RA CC (4.5 yrs)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Kanzi BN CDX RE JH (5 yrs)
IntCH WindyCanyon ItsOnlyMoneyHoneycrisp BN RN CC (16mos)
IntCH WindyCanyon's Pippin BN RI CC (2.5 yrs)IntCH WindyCanyon's Envy CDX RE JH CC (10.5 yrs)
IntCH HIT WindyCanyon's Kiku A Fuji Too CDX RE JH CC (10 yrs)
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