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  1. #31
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    Tumicks - You asked a pretty simple question that for me has a pretty complex answer. So here goes. And keep in mind I don't hunt anymore, and haven't for a long time.

    Yes, I would want a dog that could tirelessly work cover for a day of hunting upland game. And yes, I want to see some drive and enthusiasm when sent for downed game. I want to see a dog who will indeed fearlessly and enthusiastically enter and work heavy cover, cold icy water, mud, muck and any of the myriad of things you could encounter during a day in the field. But what I want to see more than anything, is a dog that is completely under control of it's handler. I want to see team work.

    Personally I don't think using the word intensity is a bad word to describe how a dog is working in the field (or show ring, obedience ring, etc). Brooks is pretty intense, he leaves the line like a rocket propelled grenade when I send him on a retrieve. One lady I train with laughs every time I send Brooks, because she can't believe a dog his size can go that hard. Brooks is NOT a big dog, he's well within the standard both height and weight. He just looks big when you see him next to some of the field bred dogs we train with on a regular basis. IRISHWHISLTER has used them "stylish" to describe Brooks working in the field.

    I will admit that I am struggling bit with Brooks intensity, specifically with line manners. He can be pretty vocal when he gets amped up, and has displayed that behavior at the hunt test we've done. He can also be on a hair trigger ready to launch, again worse when he's amped up. Normally not an issue training, but at tests, and live flyers, it can be a problem. All things we are working on, and if you could see how he was even 6 months ago compared to now, you'd be amazed how far we've come. That being said, he's still not close to where I want/need him to be as far as being totally under control, and working with me.

    So in a nutshell, I want to see a driven, motivated, and yes, some intensity in a working retrieve, but I want it controlled.
    I could not agree with you more. (And I totally feel your pain.) I think it's great to have a hard-charger. It's easier to teach self-control than to try to put desire into a slug. And as you've observed, that drive really catches the eye. It's appealing to anyone who is watching the dog work. NOW, the hard part... how can we get our dogs in the conformation ring to display some of that? OR... maybe as dxboon suggests, how do we get conformation ring judges to watch for it.

    Is there ANY way we can get the body of sporting dog judges out to a HT? Is there any way they can dialogue with high point FT and HT judges? As you probably know, HT judges must score the dog on STYLE which basically means intensity. I went to the AKC Judges Seminar and we were told that STYLE is not speed, it's simply "does this dog look like he is enjoying the work."

    Wouldn't it help if the sporting group judges could see labs in their native habitat, so to speak? The LRC standards give the framework for a solid working Labrador. But if the ring judges never see these dogs work...???

  2. #32
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    BTW... on my trip to Texas prior to all this cancer mess, I was lucky enough to meet the number one breeder of Field Labs (as measured by FC's AFC's and NFC's NAFC's.) For years the number one kennel was Candlewoods Kennel in WI. Now it's Watermarks in TX. They won't breed way out of standard, but they are certainly not anal about phenotype either. Would the top field breeder take a chance on a conformation-style Lab if he'd demonstrated superior marking, trainability and courage? Maybe. Not sure.

  3. #33
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Actually, getting the judges out to watch hunt tests (and field trials if available) is part of the Judges' education committee at LRC nationals. Our parent club firmly believes in the whole package.

    And yes, there is a Conformation Certificate (CC) program that we hold at Nationals, certain hunt tests & field trials where we can have reps there who can run / judge it. Labrador Retriever Club Conformation Certificates It's a great program that I've been involved w/ for 18 yrs or so since its inception!!!!!!!!

    So you'll laugh but this coming weekend I'm going to a hunt test w/ my regional club. As is typical, it sounds like I'll be wearing the marshal cap and providing test dog (waiting for confirmation on that). I'm sitting here trying to decide between the ever predictable/ professional acting Kanzi or her mom, Envy. Many of the judges LOVE Grammy Envy because she reveals all the dangers out there if they are present (at which point, they will and have re-set tests!) but holy cow, I'd much rather run Kanzi! Now that Honey is bigger (not terribly big but almost 5 mos), I do have to plan a bit more as to how many of my girls I can take so I was planning to take the younger set for the environment. POOR ENVY if so. She's almost 10 but everyone last yr at hunt tests were asking me how old my "puppy" was that I was running as test dog. LOL.


    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I could not agree with you more. (And I totally feel your pain.) I think it's great to have a hard-charger. It's easier to teach self-control than to try to put desire into a slug. And as you've observed, that drive really catches the eye. It's appealing to anyone who is watching the dog work. NOW, the hard part... how can we get our dogs in the conformation ring to display some of that? OR... maybe as dxboon suggests, how do we get conformation ring judges to watch for it.

    Is there ANY way we can get the body of sporting dog judges out to a HT? Is there any way they can dialogue with high point FT and HT judges? As you probably know, HT judges must score the dog on STYLE which basically means intensity. I went to the AKC Judges Seminar and we were told that STYLE is not speed, it's simply "does this dog look like he is enjoying the work."

    Wouldn't it help if the sporting group judges could see labs in their native habitat, so to speak? The LRC standards give the framework for a solid working Labrador. But if the ring judges never see these dogs work...???
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  5. #34
    Senior Dog Shelley's Avatar
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    I think you are missing the point Trumicks.


    The Labrador Retriever was never supposed to be a hot, hard charging, 300 - 400 yard field trail dog sent after marks in a non realistic hunting situation. They were developed as an English hunting companion, in group situations, to be quiet and calm and obedient for their own safety (so they weren’t shot). They were trained to sit, and wait, until told to retrieve, then to sit and wait again, and bring all the birds back efficiently. The conformation of the Labrador Retriever is not made for running full speed that far with that intensity, it was never supposed to be, yes they can work all day, in a real hunting scenario.
    With the advent of competition and the E collar and other tools for training, that were not around when they breed was developed, the current field trial was born, unrealistic as it is. The competition dogs were selected not for conformation, but for drive and intensity, and slighter body style. Field trials in the UK are far far different and more in line for how the breed was developed to hunt, than what is happening here.


    So a dog with "intensity" does not fit the Labrador Retriever breed standard as it is written and would not be acceptable temperament in the show ring either way. The flashier coated breeds that are made to run in the Sporting group is the issue, it’s not that good Labradors are not brought to the ring, but like several have said before in this post, the flashier breeds are easier and safer for the judges to put up. The dogs are judged against the breed standards, and an excellent Labrador lovely as they can be, just arent being chosen, and thats OK.




    This is from AKC: Retriever Field Trials History
    "1931 saw the organization of the Labrador Retriever Club, with Mrs. Marshall Field as its first president. On December 21 of that same year, it put on the first field trial for Retrievers in America on the eight-thousand acre Glenmere Court estate of Robert Goelet in Chester, New York-deliberately holding it on a Monday so that it would not attract a gallery. The George Foley Dog Show Organization of Philadelphia managed the event for the few dozen wealthy competitors.
    Although the program states that it was held under AKC and Labrador Retriever Club rules, the accounts of the trial indicate clearly that it was run under British rules. Mr. and Mrs. Field took first and second placements respectively in the Open All-Age Stake. W. Averell Harriman won the American-Bred Stake. The trials that followed continued through the 1930s in the hunting tradition of the British rules until increased entries and the development of sophisticated training methods assured the impracticality of British trialing procedure in America. Controlling the dogs by whistle, voice, and hand commands (handling) revolutionized the sport, starting in the 1940s. Today’s trials for Retrievers, in spite of the dictates of the AKC rules, no longer represent practical hunting situations."


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  7. #35
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    Actually, getting the judges out to watch hunt tests (and field trials if available) is part of the Judges' education committee at LRC nationals. Our parent club firmly believes in the whole package.

    And yes, there is a Conformation Certificate (CC) program that we hold at Nationals, certain hunt tests & field trials where we can have reps there who can run / judge it. Labrador Retriever Club Conformation Certificates It's a great program that I've been involved w/ for 18 yrs or so since its inception!!!!!!!!

    So you'll laugh but this coming weekend I'm going to a hunt test w/ my regional club. As is typical, it sounds like I'll be wearing the marshal cap and providing test dog (waiting for confirmation on that). I'm sitting here trying to decide between the ever predictable/ professional acting Kanzi or her mom, Envy. Many of the judges LOVE Grammy Envy because she reveals all the dangers out there if they are present (at which point, they will and have re-set tests!) but holy cow, I'd much rather run Kanzi! Now that Honey is bigger (not terribly big but almost 5 mos), I do have to plan a bit more as to how many of my girls I can take so I was planning to take the younger set for the environment. POOR ENVY if so. She's almost 10 but everyone last yr at hunt tests were asking me how old my "puppy" was that I was running as test dog. LOL.
    Would love to see pix of your old gal showing the young whippersnappers how it's done! Still funny to see a yellow in your group photo! Good looking gang. Hope the weather is nice for all of you this weekend.

  8. #36
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    Tumicks - My Bruce actually had a Champion/Master Hunter in his line, Ch. Naiken Indian Temple MH. He was imported into the US by a breeder in California. Google him and you'll see some pics of a very nice dog.

    FWIW - I worked at several British field trials put on by the Labrador Retriever Club when I lived there. Yes, I know it's a whole different ball game over there, but those dogs went pretty hard, and it was great fun to watch. You could tell they truly loved their work.

  9. #37
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Hahaha, don't you DARE call Envy an Old gal!!! I wish some of the pros etc were here as they'd laugh big time. She's NUTS when it comes to live birds on water esp!
    Fortunately for me, she's a super easy girl to live with-- has that off switch.
    Btw, Envy is who I think is shining thru in Kanzi's litter-- Honey the yellow has a LOT of go when it comes to birds etc. Will be a fun ride!



    Quote Originally Posted by dxboon View Post
    Would love to see pix of your old gal showing the young whippersnappers how it's done! Still funny to see a yellow in your group photo! Good looking gang. Hope the weather is nice for all of you this weekend.
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  11. #38
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    Tumicks - My Bruce actually had a Champion/Master Hunter in his line, Ch. Naiken Indian Temple MH. He was imported into the US by a breeder in California. Google him and you'll see some pics of a very nice dog.

    FWIW - I worked at several British field trials put on by the Labrador Retriever Club when I lived there. Yes, I know it's a whole different ball game over there, but those dogs went pretty hard, and it was great fun to watch. You could tell they truly loved their work.
    Spencer was a great boy. He’s behind my chocolate boy in my sig. Grateful to his owner for bringing him to California.

  12. #39
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    Hahaha, don't you DARE call Envy an Old gal!!! I wish some of the pros etc were here as they'd laugh big time. She's NUTS when it comes to live birds on water esp!
    Fortunately for me, she's a super easy girl to live with-- has that off switch.
    Btw, Envy is who I think is shining thru in Kanzi's litter-- Honey the yellow has a LOT of go when it comes to birds etc. Will be a fun ride!
    Excited for you! You’ve got some good things going in your program!

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  14. #40
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    The Labrador Retriever was never supposed to be a hot, hard charging, 300 - 400 yard field trail dog sent after marks in a non realistic hunting situation. Shelly... I could not agree with you more!

    They were developed as an English hunting companion, in group situations, to be quiet and calm and obedient for their own safety (so they weren’t shot). They were trained to sit, and wait, until told to retrieve, then to sit and wait again, and bring all the birds back efficiently. I get that... that's why we're classified as "Non-Slip Retrievers." But I would argue that birds that are not killed cold in flight become running cripples and/or divers. (Happens a lot.) It's humane to have a dog that powers out after such a bird.

    The conformation of the Labrador Retriever is not made for running full speed that far with that intensity, it was never supposed to be I don't see that in the standard, and I can't visualize why it's of benefit to the hunter. Again, in a real-life hunting scenario... British or North American... upland or water fowl... the dog really needs to get the cripples. AND, needs to bring the bird to hand quickly because there will be additional birds going down. Sometimes...often... multiple birds are dropped at the same time. This only amplifies the value of a dog who runs out and scoops them up. So, I guess I don't see the value of a "plodder" (I apologize for the pejorative.)

    Field trials in the UK are far far different and more int line for how the breed was developed to hunt, than what is happening here. I agree with your assessment of US/Canadian FT's. And your read on how they've evolved with modern training systems. But even though UK FT's are very different, their FT dogs are almost indistinguishable (physically) from ours.

    Today’s trials for Retrievers, in spite of the dictates of the AKC rules, no longer represent practical hunting situations." I suppose I disagree. Our trials are different mostly because our hunting is different. Over here, it's a sport engaged in by middle class folks, not the rich. (God bless the Fields and Harrimans. We needed the elite to get the thing initiated... but hunting is not an elite sport, so the Lab pretty soon was the dog for the Every-man.) We have public lands instead of estates and driven shoots. We do a lot of water fowl hunting and so our trials reflect that. Not sure what you mean by "AKC rules". We follow the AKC rule book(s) very carefully otherwise we wouldn't be licensed to hold events. We've had AKC representatives at our HT, so I know how careful we are.

    So I agree with a lot of your views on FT's. (The Hunt Test movement was an absolutely needed corrective.) But I'm still lost on the whole intensity thing.

 



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