Splitting the Breed

[JenC]

I think a big coat makes a dog look overweight. So many times when you see photos of some of the winning labs out there, many quickly jump to the "overweight" conclusion. Yet if you have had your hands on the dog, you know that there is a much smaller dog underneath there.

I know folks are usually surprised my black dog is only about 77#, but he carries ALOT of coat.

[Annette47]

Annette... I agree with you. Are you able to identify any FC's AFC's or MNC's (who might have photo's on line) who in your opinion trend toward the breed standard? I know there are tons that don't. That was why I brought Super Chief into the discussion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I love his face and expression. But also he had dual CH's in his pedigree. I'd be grateful for any examples of dogs you think have proven field performance and the look/build/characteristics that field people should strive for.

The problem is that whether or not a dog meets the breed standard is very open to subjective interpretation as it describes a dog in terms like “moderate stop” and “slightly longer than tall” rather than specified proportions and measurable angles. What I picture when I read the standard is most likely at least slightly different from what other people picture when they read it. And most likely none of us are completely wrong (unless we picture a poodle or yorkshire terrier, LOL). In terms of what I picture when I look at the standard, it’s mostly dogs that were winning in the 1990’s ... doesn’t mean they were necessarily more/less in tune with it than what is winning today or even the dual champions of yesteryear - they are just what I prefer.

In terms of evaluating top winning Field dogs today by looking at photos on line, one problem with evaluating how well they meet the standard is that they tend to be photographed sitting down, which doesn’t allow you to really evaluate their structure and proportions as well as a photo of a stacked conformation dog. If you are interested in dogs which meet both breed and performance, look at some of the many CH/MH’s that are out there. For an example of a dog I personally liked (he has since passed away), check out Kerrybrook Stud Services. “Pete” was Chloe’s great-grandfather on her mother’s side and he is behind some very nice dogs including his grandsons “Vince” HRCH UH CH Kerrybrook's Vince MH - About Vince, and “Goose” English Labrador puppies . Champion master hunter. who are dogs who both fit the standard and have proven ability in the field. There are other CH/MH’s as well ... those are just two of the ones I happen to be most familiar with.

[Labradorks]

For example, in my experience, field Labs get their knees blown out more often than conformation Labs. This may not actually be a statistic, but I personally have yet to meet a well-bred conformation Lab needing knee surgery.

I can't say you're wrong. On the other hand, think about two cadres of health high school kids. One group are bandsmen and chess team members, the other group plays varsity basketball and baseball. Field dogs are athletes.

I have never met a conformation Lab that would be classified as a bandsmen or chess team members. While they (generally speaking) may not need three hours of retrieving per day like a field type (again, generalities), it's not like they don't run, jump, pounce, play, wrestle, retrieve, and do all the things that field Labs do. See the dog in my avatar? He is a 96 lb conformation style Lab that loves his birds. I don't know how that is not an athlete? It's in what you do with your dog, not the style of dog you have that determines whether or not the dog is an athlete.

[Labradorks]

So, this dog runs 100 lbs when competing in field work and 110 lbs when showing conformation. I know because I know the owner and she told me. He is a CH and with little work, he is also a JH. They are planning on continuing with his field trial career, though slowly as it is not a priority. He is healthy, great temperament, birdy, amazingly calm, and technically speaking, has proper conformation.

Despite the fact that he is a very large conformation dog, he is an athlete. Right? Why do we need to go out of standard to get a field Lab? Why can't a Lab within the standard -- they are bred that way for a reason and that is to do the job they were bred to do -- be a field Lab? Not that I think we can snap our fingers and obtain that...but is it not possible to have a dog within the standard, with an appropriate temperament, who also makes a great bird dog (and by great bird dog I am not talking about an extreme example whereas the dog's overall temperament is at stake)? What is so wrong with this dog?

[indybindy]

So, this dog runs 100 lbs when competing in field work and 110 lbs when showing conformation. I know because I know the owner and she told me. He is a CH and with little work, he is also a JH. They are planning on continuing with his field trial career...

Uh....I wouldn't exactly call a JH test a field trial career. And compared to an Open stake at a trial, a JH is like playing with the chess team.... sorry.

And having a 110 lb dogs is way out of standard! I still don't understand why that part of the standard is so easily overlooked or ignored. Probably because people think a JH actually shows working ability :/

[indybindy]

And I totally appreciate that our breed has the variety it does. I also appreciate that labs don't need to run field trials to meet a working standard...

but i do think it's funny that so many people have convinced themselves that their dogs are athletes because they can retrieve four 75 yrd singles.... and some of the generalizations about field labs are just as ridiculous as those against the conformation labs. Really, you've never met a bench style lab with a cruciate injury???

[Annette47]

There are many ways to fail to adhere to the standard. The standard is supposed to describe a “medium-sized" dog. I just can’t fathom a dog that is 100+ lbs being described as “medium” under any circumstances.

[Berna]

What is so wrong with this dog?

Personally, if it were my dog, I'd get some pounds off of him!

I have a dog from conformation lines, and I am keeping him very slim. It's not that they have just bigger bones, nor is coat always the culprit, many specimens are, unfortunately, just plain FAT!

And yes, cruciate injuries happen in conformation lines too.

I agree with Indybindy, it's good to have a variety of types to choose from, de gustibus et de coloribus non disputandum est

[Labradorks]

I'm not saying that the dog is perfect or that I think he is perfect. Obviously some judges thought he was pretty great; it's not like it's easy to get an AKC CH title on a dog. And this dog is owner handled and was not heavily campaigned. I chose him as an example because he is everything that field people say cannot hunt or be athletic. Also, because I know him so no assumptions (though I do not claim to know everything as I am not the owner). He is really big and I've had my hands on him, and he is very large boned, tall, and solid. I'm also not saying the dog is the perfect athletic specimen of dogs, but he is capable. Sure, he only has his JH, but that doesn't mean he is not capable of more. We all know how much time and money it takes to work with a dog and title them, even if they do have natural ability. Which goes back to my question about why field folks feel the need to breed so out of standard. If the standard exists for a reason -- to support the dog's purpose and not for looks, personal preferences, etc. -- why wouldn't they just try to breed a birdier conformation Lab?

It's just a question, nothing more.

[Labradorks]

Uh....I wouldn't exactly call a JH test a field trial career. And compared to an Open stake at a trial, a JH is like playing with the chess team.... sorry.

And having a 110 lb dogs is way out of standard! I still don't understand why that part of the standard is so easily overlooked or ignored. Probably because people think a JH actually shows working ability :/

It's ok. We can compare all day! We could say that a half marathon runner is a band member compared to a tri-athlete, etc. But that does not make the half-marathon runner a non-athlete. And who is to say the half-marathon runner couldn't be a tri-athlete if they had the time and money? But my point was that field folks seem to think that conformation dogs are incapable of being athletic at all. And my question is, is that why some field Labs are bred so out of standard as to be detrimental to their health?