Reliability and the Retrieve: Justifying the Ear Pinch?

[TuMicks]

I do believe that Janice Gunn's Lab is trained using a purely positive approach and no FF. He has his SH title and one leg toward his MH. She has other retrievers with field titles, but I think he's the only MH title so far. Her click and retrieve video is awesome and I highly recommend it! Granted, her dog has an amazing performance and field pedigree and she is a professional trainer. Point being, it is not impossible.

I would love for someone to make strides in this direction, just to see if it could bring more people to our sport. And if they do come up with such a program that produces high-end dogs, she'll sell a gazillion books and DVD's. Certainly there's a market for it.

[Sue]

I would love for someone to make strides in this direction, just to see if it could bring more people to our sport. And if they do come up with such a program that produces high-end dogs, she'll sell a gazillion books and DVD's. Certainly there's a market for it.

Being as you're also on RTF, I'm surprised you don't know about Bill Hillmann's training program. He does NOT use an ear pinch to train a force fetch. He does use an e-collar, after the dog is trained, but his is certainly a program that trains with trust and enthusiasm, beginning with the puppy months.

For the record, I'm not against the proper use of an e-collar, as long as it's used in a proper manner, and not as a punishment technique. I'd be hypocritical, since I use an underground fence to contain my dogs if I did.

[TuMicks]

You bring up an excellent point.

I do know about Bill and he has the bona fides to deserve a lot of respect. He is one of the finest trainers of young dogs around and has a superlative derby record. Over time his methods may prove out and over-take current training theories. It should be noted that whatever it is he's doing... his dogs are 100% reliable.

(For those who haven't watched his videos, it's a little tough to describe, but it's using every attentive moment a puppy and adolescent dog has to playfully toss the bumper into the dog's' mouth and offer much praise for his taking and holding it. Then later on, he uses very low intensity e-collar stimulation to firm the response up. I think I'm explaining it.)

It's not a method that would work for pros who may have a dozen young dogs in for FF and basics. I think modern FF is Bill's method in a more structured and compressed time period. It doesn't use pain so much as anxiety. But, to the point of the OP's article... what Hillmann's method and FF have in common is that it isn't about NO (don't spit that out) it's about GO. It's developing within the young retriever the habit of thought that nothing matters so much as bringing that bird back.

(I have worked with the pro that FF'd both RD and my older Master Hunter. It's difficult to describe exactly. It's about so much more than pick-this-thing-up-and-put-it-in-my-hand. Wish I could do a better job of putting the process into words. Evan is ever so much more gifted in that regard than I am.)

[windycanyon]

I do believe that Janice Gunn's Lab is trained using a purely positive approach and no FF. He has his SH title and one leg toward his MH. She has other retrievers with field titles, but I think he's the only MH title so far. Her click and retrieve video is awesome and I highly recommend it! Granted, her dog has an amazing performance and field pedigree and she is a professional trainer. Point being, it is not impossible.

Ummm, not until just very recently.

[windycanyon]

I'm sorry but there comes a time w/ adolescence (esp w/ males) where FF is essential to the "communication" between man and man's best friend. Believe me, it's not a shut down time for the dog. The dog actually has a come to Jesus moment and appreciates that we (stupid owners) are finally being clear w/ our instructions. Now this all assumes that WE know what the heck WE are doing. Just sayin.... All trainers are not considered equal.

[Labradorks]

Ummm, not until just very recently.

Which part?

[Labradorks]

I think there are different levels of compulsion available to us as trainers. There are some who are “positive only” who use just rewards and never any type of “force” to get the dog to do what they want. Personally, I find dogs trained this way to be much less reliable. There are some mostly old-school trainer who use primarily compulsion and force to get the dog to do what they want with few if any rewards or praise. I find these dogs can be good workers, but do not appear to be enjoying themselves in the least.

The way we train is probably a mix. Things are taught with luring/rewards etc., but once the dog does know the exercise if it chooses not to comply, then we do use corrections to make sure they know it is not optional, but the amount/severity of the correction depends on both the offense and the dog. For retrieving, I have never yet had to use an ear pinch. A simple collar pop to the dumbbell, glove, etc., with a firm “I said TAKE IT” is enough of a correction for mine (and only given once they know what “Take it” means. Since they naturally want to retrieve, we can teach the exercise too them very easily, without needing any force or compulsion. Where we train, the purpose of an ear pinch is for a dog who is adamantly refusing to even open their mouth to take the object. This is needed for some other dogs we train with (not retrievers) and for them, the instructor who is very experienced does do a forced retrieve to get them to understand what is wanted. The ear pinch is accompanied by tons of praise/rewards as soon as they open their mouths to take the object. Most need only one session of this before they get the point. Some will never learn to love retrieving, but they will at least learn to do it when asked.

The most aborted retrieves I have seen are with young FF'ed dogs (field work -- all retrievers) and one FF'ed obedience dog (a Sheltie). The least number of failed retrieves I have seen is with non FF'ed dogs in obedience. The papilons, borzois, aussies, shepherds, keeshounds, beagles, irish setters, etc. Very few retrievers -- hardly anyone around here shows retrievers. The dogs were trained to want the dumb bell, which is key. The more the dog dislikes it, the more he is trained to like it. Want to eat your dinner? Well, each bite equals a dumb bell retrieve. Want this piece of cheese? At least touch the dumb bell first. Classical conditioning at its finest!

A correction for a dog who adamantly refuses to do something he is undoubtedly trained to do, and trained correctly to do, including proofing, is one thing. A FF for a dog before it's trained, and trained correctly including proofing, before it's even had a chance to refuse, is something else entirely.

[Labradorks]

I'm sorry but there comes a time w/ adolescence (esp w/ males) where FF is essential to the "communication" between man and man's best friend. Believe me, it's not a shut down time for the dog. The dog actually has a come to Jesus moment and appreciates that we (stupid owners) are finally being clear w/ our instructions. Now this all assumes that WE know what the heck WE are doing. Just sayin.... All trainers are not considered equal.

A C2J with one dog is not the same as a C2J with the next dog though. If I ever have a C2J with Linus, it'll go something like this, "No." *wagging a finger in dog's face*

And, like I said in a previous post, a correction for a trained, and trained properly dog, is different than a FF on an untrained dog.

[Annette47]

The most aborted retrieves I have seen are with young FF'ed dogs (field work -- all retrievers) and one FF'ed obedience dog (a Sheltie). The least number of failed retrieves I have seen is with non FF'ed dogs in obedience. The papilons, borzois, aussies, shepherds, keeshounds, beagles, irish setters, etc. Very few retrievers -- hardly anyone around here shows retrievers. The dogs were trained to want the dumb bell, which is key. The more the dog dislikes it, the more he is trained to like it. Want to eat your dinner? Well, each bite equals a dumb bell retrieve. Want this piece of cheese? At least touch the dumb bell first. Classical conditioning at its finest!

A correction for a dog who adamantly refuses to do something he is undoubtedly trained to do, and trained correctly to do, including proofing, is one thing. A FF for a dog before it's trained, and trained correctly including proofing, before it's even had a chance to refuse, is something else entirely.

The classical conditioning you mention can only be done AFTER the dog understands it is to pick up the dumbbell and deliver it to hand. The FF our trainer uses is to teach the dog to pick up the dumbbell, and is often done as a last resort after other methods, such as luring with food, shaping, etc., have failed to work. Once the dog understands retrieving isn’t optional, it is made more desirable by the things you mentions (doing it before meals, etc.), but if the dog will not retrieve in the first place, then linking it to meals, treats, etc., will not work. You need the behavior in the first place.

And I’ve seen plenty of aborted retrieves among both natural retrievers and those who were FF - usually because there is something near the dumbbell/glove/article that the dog is afraid to approach. The desire to do the retrieve has to be stronger than the fear of whatever it is, and sometimes, for some dogs, FF is the most effective way to achieve that. For others, such as my labs, their natural desire to retrieve is strong enough that a little encouragement can get them past their trepidation, but if the retrieve desire is not there, more compulsion becomes necessary. The other time I have seen aborted retrieves is when we deliberately set up distractions in class such as another handler sweet talking the dog out near the dumbbell (that one usually suckers Chloe, LOL), and in that case compulsion is warranted as the dog is deliberately blowing off the handler.

[Labradorks]

The classical conditioning you mention can only be done AFTER the dog understands it is to pick up the dumbbell and deliver it to hand. The FF our trainer uses is to teach the dog to pick up the dumbbell, and is often done as a last resort after other methods, such as luring with food, shaping, etc., have failed to work. Once the dog understands retrieving isn’t optional, it is made more desirable by the things you mentions (doing it before meals, etc.), but if the dog will not retrieve in the first place, then linking it to meals, treats, etc., will not work. You need the behavior in the first place.

And I’ve seen plenty of aborted retrieves among both natural retrievers and those who were FF - usually because there is something near the dumbbell/glove/article that the dog is afraid to approach. The desire to do the retrieve has to be stronger than the fear of whatever it is, and sometimes, for some dogs, FF is the most effective way to achieve that. For others, such as my labs, their natural desire to retrieve is strong enough that a little encouragement can get them past their trepidation, but if the retrieve desire is not there, more compulsion becomes necessary. The other time I have seen aborted retrieves is when we deliberately set up distractions in class such as another handler sweet talking the dog out near the dumbbell (that one usually suckers Chloe, LOL), and in that case compulsion is warranted as the dog is deliberately blowing off the handler.

I agree with much of this. Though we don't use a FF in any circumstances. There may be other forceful types of training with the dumb bell, such as physically putting it in the dog's mouth then click and reward. I'm working on the hold and before I closed my dog's mouth around the dumb bell, I clicked and rewarded holding his muzzle shut -- softly, more like keeping it shut if that makes sense -- without the dumb bell so that it was a good thing. That's just an example.

That said, the FF of the field trainer or even in obedience (I'm sure it's done), before the dog is trained, is something entirely different.

Dog behavior is really interesting to me and I love seeing the progress with different types of training with different types of dogs. I would love to see people training their dogs as individuals, striking up a true partnership versus a master/slave type of arrangement, and seeing dogs loving their work. Your Chloe is a lot like my Linus in that her biggest fear is being wrong. To train those types of dogs with ear pinches, heeling sticks, and other harsh corrections, would have destroyed their positive attitudes and their love of work, don't you think?