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  1. #61
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Well... that is an important issue. We've had two dogs who have suddenly not wanted to pick up a bird when they had heretofore been very, very dependable. In both cases they had abscesses. I can say in all honesty, that my two dogs are 100% reliable, though sometimes, if it's a bumper, Rocket Dog will roll it in her mouth. She just needs to be told "hold" and she stops. In the case of the young golden, it requires a good trainer to put her behavior in context. She was being sullen generally because she'd been put under pressure for other acting out behaviors. So... maybe she was having a bad day, but it was one of her own making. (She was much better today.)

    Still, if we're being literal, I'd have to say that the golden's behavior is the exception that proves the rule. We ran 20 dogs today (!!! Three marks and two blinds. Long morning that started very early.) Of those 20, some of whom are pups who are just out of basics and beginning field work, none of them had any reluctance to pick up birds or bumpers and deliver to hand.

    Is it possible that 100% dependable means different things to different people? I don't know.

  2. #62
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    That is where you need to ask pro handlers but I can pretty much guess most of their answers at this point...

    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Well... that is an important issue. We've had two dogs who have suddenly not wanted to pick up a bird when they had heretofore been very, very dependable. In both cases they had abscesses. I can say in all honesty, that my two dogs are 100% reliable, though sometimes, if it's a bumper, Rocket Dog will roll it in her mouth. She just needs to be told "hold" and she stops. In the case of the young golden, it requires a good trainer to put her behavior in context. She was being sullen generally because she'd been put under pressure for other acting out behaviors. So... maybe she was having a bad day, but it was one of her own making. (She was much better today.)

    Still, if we're being literal, I'd have to say that the golden's behavior is the exception that proves the rule. We ran 20 dogs today (!!! Three marks and two blinds. Long morning that started very early.) Of those 20, some of whom are pups who are just out of basics and beginning field work, none of them had any reluctance to pick up birds or bumpers and deliver to hand.

    Is it possible that 100% dependable means different things to different people? I don't know.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Is it possible that 100% dependable means different things to different people? I don't know.
    Most likely, but don’t forget that these are living creatures, just like us. For me, saying my dog is 100% dependable would mean that they do it every time unless they have a darn good reason (most likely something physical) causing them not to, but others may look at it differently. I would never say “100%” though because as I said, they are living creatures and I don’t think ANY living being can be perfect at all times.

    Incidentally, Chloe has never been through the kind of formal FF field trainers use, but the day she severed the tendon in her leg, she started to come out of the water without her toy she’d been doing fun retrieves with and all I said was “where’s your toy?” (so not even a real correction) and she turned around, swam out and got it ... and came out of the water holding her leg up with blood everywhere. Now that’s what I call dependable!
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  5. #64
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Just at a HT over the weekend. Previously reliable dog brought in a duck very gingerly, dropped it at the handler's feet and then wouldn't pick it up. Flummoxed the handler. Talked to him afterwards and it turns out the dog is taking an inordinately long time to eat her dried kibble. The guy said he was going to call the vet that Monday.

    Sometimes by the end of a weekend, the ducks are really nasty. You can tell the dogs don't particularly like holding them. But they almost always do. (They don't make it out of Junior if they don't.)

  6. #65
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Just at a HT over the weekend. Previously reliable dog brought in a duck very gingerly, dropped it at the handler's feet and then wouldn't pick it up. Flummoxed the handler. Talked to him afterwards and it turns out the dog is taking an inordinately long time to eat her dried kibble. The guy said he was going to call the vet that Monday.

    Sometimes by the end of a weekend, the ducks are really nasty. You can tell the dogs don't particularly like holding them. But they almost always do. (They don't make it out of Junior if they don't.)
    Happens sometimes but at this time of the year, not normally a case of rotten birds.. I'd look for a health reason if all other issues check out.
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  7. #66
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I had never met the man or his dog before. BUT, the day before, the dog had dropped the bird but when told, did pick it up and delivered to hand. On Sunday, she would not pick it up. I think it was physical.

    Maybe the answer to the OP's question/issue is... when the dogs are 100% reliable, they're 100% reliable. And if there comes a time when they are not, look for the reason. To be honest, I worry more about the dog getting sticky than the dog spitting the bird.

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  9. #67
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Here's a good article from the Positive Gun Dog Training guy on Victoria Stilwell's blog. Might find it interesting.

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  11. #68
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I read the blog and found it very interesting. The author makes the point that time will tell, and that performance speaks louder than philosophy. I don't want to say it cannot be done. But there are also some issues I'd like to raise in response:

    I think his point about training methods in the UK and the US is very provocative (in the good sense of that word.) But our hunting is different and has been since... well, since there was hunting on this side of the pond. (The result of a long list of cultural, legal and societal differences between the two continents.) Additionally, I think there is the Yankee notion of "top dog"... who has bragging rights, whose dog is best on that particular day... that might mark us as fundamentally different sorts of dog competitor. Consequently, our trials/HT's reflect those differences... which in turn cause our training to be different and reflect our type of trials/HT's... which then drives the types of dogs we breed... which once again impacts the standards judged in our trials/HT's which once again, in turn, influences our training methods... and on around it goes. (I am not a sociologist. So, no research based knowledge is reflected here.)

    IF the positive training methods can equal or supplant the current methods, then I feel sure, the FT/HT community will beat a path to this person's door. I truly believe that. At the same time, I want to suggest that nothing is completely binary. There is some aversion in our current training methods. No doubt about that. But the methods, are not completely aversive. Failure to understand this, muddies the way we look at what we are doing.

    Principle among the things that are often missed (indeed completely misunderstood) is the unbelievably potent reward value of the retrieve (especially of duck/pheasant/pigeons) to the well-bred field lab. It is difficult to describe. Yes, most BYB or conformation bred labs love feathers. They get real joy out of picking up something and carrying it around, and they especially enjoy retrieving birds. But the field-bred dog (heavily FC-NFC-CFC-AFC-etc lines) actually crave the bird-retrieve more than they crave life and breath. *Think about that verb... to CRAVE.* Even I did not appreciate this until Rocket Dog came into my life. Her passion just friggin' amazes me. And I thought I understood this. But I. Never. Dreamed... how strong the drive could be.

    If we were laboring under the assumption that the nick/burn/zap or ear-pinch, or pain was true aversion, then we'd miss this. Understand, for Rocket Dog, the worst thing I could possibly do to her has nothing to do with a #6-HIGH. Oh, no. The absolute worst thing I can do to her is put her back on the truck after she's seen a bird go down. That, for her, is true agony.

    Conversely, the most POWERFUL reinforcement I can give her is to let her get the bird-retrieve. In between those two extremes (back on the truck vrs. a freshly shot duck in her mouth) is teaching her how to increase the positive and decrease the negative in her retrieving experience.

    Do you see how what we are doing is hardly "aversive" or "negative" training verses any alternative?

    Did Rocket Dog get FF'd? Yes. Did she blast through her lessons? Yes. Why? Not because the pressure was so painful, but because getting the retrieve was more positive than the pressure was painful/negative/aversive. As she is learning, she is getting more and more positive, more ducks, more marked retrieves. As she is learning, she is getting fewer nicks, fewer failures. Her positive is increasing, her negative decreasing.

    AND... as the blog suggested, doing this incrementally is a key to success. She never gets pressure for that which she doesn't know or understand. Every concept is added step by step.

    Let me cut to the chase...

    As the methods of the positive trainers meets with increasing recognition in terms of titles, as their techniques (as applied specifically to retrievers) become more refined, I believe that there will come to be a blending of the two schools.

    There has been a big, big evolution in retriever training since the days of James Lamb Free and Rex Carr. It's been informed by a lot of behavioral science and borrowed from the various dog disciplines. I am sure it will continue to do so.
    Last edited by TuMicks; 04-24-2015 at 11:52 PM.

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  13. #69
    House Broken AlexS's Avatar
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  15. #70
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
    Interesting article, thanks!

    On a related note, I suppose there is a reason why there are so many "Forced Fetch Rehab" training programs around.

 



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