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  1. #71
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I read the blog and found it very interesting. The author makes the point that time will tell, and that performance speaks louder than philosophy. I don't want to say it cannot be done. But there are also some issues I'd like to raise in response:

    I think his point about training methods in the UK and the US is very provocative (in the good sense of that word.) But our hunting is different and has been since... well, since there was hunting on this side of the pond. (The result of a long list of cultural, legal and societal differences between the two continents.) Additionally, I think there is the Yankee notion of "top dog"... who has bragging rights, whose dog is best on that particular day... that might mark us as fundamentally different sorts of dog competitor. Consequently, our trials/HT's reflect those differences... which in turn cause our training to be different and reflect our type of trials/HT's... which then drives the types of dogs we breed... which once again impacts the standards judged in our trials/HT's which once again, in turn, influences our training methods... and on around it goes. (I am not a sociologist. So, no research based knowledge is reflected here.)

    IF the positive training methods can equal or supplant the current methods, then I feel sure, the FT/HT community will beat a path to this person's door. I truly believe that. At the same time, I want to suggest that nothing is completely binary. There is some aversion in our current training methods. No doubt about that. But the methods, are not completely aversive. Failure to understand this, muddies the way we look at what we are doing.

    Principle among the things that are often missed (indeed completely misunderstood) is the unbelievably potent reward value of the retrieve (especially of duck/pheasant/pigeons) to the well-bred field lab. It is difficult to describe. Yes, most BYB or conformation bred labs love feathers. They get real joy out of picking up something and carrying it around, and they especially enjoy retrieving birds. But the field-bred dog (heavily FC-NFC-CFC-AFC-etc lines) actually crave the bird-retrieve more than they crave life and breath. *Think about that verb... to CRAVE.* Even I did not appreciate this until Rocket Dog came into my life. Her passion just friggin' amazes me. And I thought I understood this. But I. Never. Dreamed... how strong the drive could be.

    If we were laboring under the assumption that the nick/burn/zap or ear-pinch, or pain was true aversion, then we'd miss this. Understand, for Rocket Dog, the worst thing I could possibly do to her has nothing to do with a #6-HIGH. Oh, no. The absolute worst thing I can do to her is put her back on the truck after she's seen a bird go down. That, for her, is true agony.

    Conversely, the most POWERFUL reinforcement I can give her is to let her get the bird-retrieve. In between those two extremes (back on the truck vrs. a freshly shot duck in her mouth) is teaching her how to increase the positive and decrease the negative in her retrieving experience.

    Do you see how what we are doing is hardly "aversive" or "negative" training verses any alternative?

    Did Rocket Dog get FF'd? Yes. Did she blast through her lessons? Yes. Why? Not because the pressure was so painful, but because getting the retrieve was more positive than the pressure was painful/negative/aversive. As she is learning, she is getting more and more positive, more ducks, more marked retrieves. As she is learning, she is getting fewer nicks, fewer failures. Her positive is increasing, her negative decreasing.

    AND... as the blog suggested, doing this incrementally is a key to success. She never gets pressure for that which she doesn't know or understand. Every concept is added step by step.

    Let me cut to the chase...

    As the methods of the positive trainers meets with increasing recognition in terms of titles, as their techniques (as applied specifically to retrievers) become more refined, I believe that there will come to be a blending of the two schools.

    There has been a big, big evolution in retriever training since the days of James Lamb Free and Rex Carr. It's been informed by a lot of behavioral science and borrowed from the various dog disciplines. I am sure it will continue to do so.
    The guy who wrote the post is in Colorado. It was picked up by Victoria Stilwell's blog or website, not because of geography, but the positive aspect of the training. I'm assuming, by your post, you think it's written from the perspective of someone on the other side of the pond?

    I get what you're saying, but I guess this creates a whole other argument in that we are breeding these dogs NOT for hunting but for competition, for our own benefit, to win. Not to go grab a bird we shot for dinner, like they were originally expected to do. I think it has been discussed before that you don't need a high-octane, insane, on all the time, prey-drive to hunt. If you take a normal, well-bred Lab, he should be able to do what he was originally created to do without an ear-pinch or an e-collar, with the right training and exposure, of course. But if you're gonna beat the next guy at a trial, then perhaps you do need a bird-crazy dog and the tools to deal with not only that temperament but the competition. Some of these dogs don't even make good pets for the average dog owner, and breeding them so out of standard and in some cases not paying attention to health or temperament, for the sake of a good competition hunter, is just not right. BUT, that can be said for most, if not all, competition animals, including all dog sports. And then, yes, there are the conformation animals that humans have, in many cases, created monsters out of. I suppose it is just human nature...

  2. #72
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    I have taken a bit more of the Hillman approach by accident w/ my 13 mo old, only because she had such a great concept of Stay at a young age. I keep thinking I still need to FF her and I will, though probably not until after our local obed trials next month where I hope to do RA and BN titles. I have experimented w/ pressure w/ her since she's been CC'd to Here, and by golly, when I had the opportunity last weekend to do some field training w/ an obedience trainer who was here for a workshop, that kid demo'd to me that she really did "get it" about turning the pressure off. We were heeling down the field toward the "line" (had wingers set out), and she saw her friend Barbara and her Golden.. and started to forge ahead. I nicked her and said Heel, and guess what? She promptly got her little tail into heel position w/o any distress. So though I've not FF'd her, I have used a progression in my training starting w/ good solid foundations in obedience which transfer very well to the field. This pup (unlike her mom) is quiet AND steady on the line. Is it all genetics? Or is it the place board training that started early? Or did that prong collar I used at 4.5 mos when she started her first Rally class just convince her that heel is a better place? Or is it the ultimate rewards she gets (the treats, the play, the birds, etc) for doing things right? If they don't ever learn a consequence to a "wrong" behavior, could I trust that dog offlead on our walks etc along the big canal and orchard or at some of my work places where I am allowed to bring a pup (dangers in many places)?

    I guess the bottom line is we all have different goals and needs in life. I've lost a couple dogs prematurely to things out of my control... one just 11 wks ago. That hurts so badly but I can't even imagine if I didn't equip my dogs to deal w/ every day dangers, how I'd feel to lose one. To me, safety is the bottom line. If the dog is always going to be in a fenced enclosure or on leash, no, you probably don't need all the FF, the ecollars etc, but to see dogs not be able to handle any pressure and run from their owners during obed training after too many reps or whatever, is sad. One of my friends/instructors is dealing w/ this right now. Her girl had a hard time just dealing w/ a butt grab or having someone restrain her lightly for a recall and the dog is 5 yrs old now. The field trainers such as Dobbs, Graham, Hillmann and Lardy have a TON of GREAT ideas that are useful in every day life. One doesn't have to be brutal... and even the ear pinch doesn't have to be brutal. I probably use more of a squeeze myself since my dogs are softer. What I'm reading here w/ the Stillwell article is that ANY kind of pressure makes you a terrible person and/or trainer. My question back is how successful has this Thomas Aaron been in the competition world? A quick search by name on Entry Express brings up nothing. Maybe TuMicks or AlexS or someone else knows? Maybe he's just a companion hunter trainer and if so, I can't tell you how many of those types are perfectly happy w/ far less than I am (eg no delivery to hand, munched on birds, etc).
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    IntCH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX RA JH OA OAJ CC (14.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Ruby Pink BN CD RA CC (4.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Kanzi BN CDX RE JH (5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon ItsOnlyMoneyHoneycrisp BN RN CC (16mos)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Pippin BN RI CC (2.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Envy CDX RE JH CC (10.5 yrs)
    IntCH HIT WindyCanyon's Kiku A Fuji Too CDX RE JH CC (10 yrs)







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  4. #73
    House Broken AlexS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    I have taken a bit more of the Hillman approach by accident w/ my 13 mo old, only because she had such a great concept of Stay at a young age. I keep thinking I still need to FF her and I will, though probably not until after our local obed trials next month where I hope to do RA and BN titles. I have experimented w/ pressure w/ her since she's been CC'd to Here, and by golly, when I had the opportunity last weekend to do some field training w/ an obedience trainer who was here for a workshop, that kid demo'd to me that she really did "get it" about turning the pressure off. We were heeling down the field toward the "line" (had wingers set out), and she saw her friend Barbara and her Golden.. and started to forge ahead. I nicked her and said Heel, and guess what? She promptly got her little tail into heel position w/o any distress. So though I've not FF'd her, I have used a progression in my training starting w/ good solid foundations in obedience which transfer very well to the field. This pup (unlike her mom) is quiet AND steady on the line. Is it all genetics? Or is it the place board training that started early? Or did that prong collar I used at 4.5 mos when she started her first Rally class just convince her that heel is a better place? Or is it the ultimate rewards she gets (the treats, the play, the birds, etc) for doing things right? If they don't ever learn a consequence to a "wrong" behavior, could I trust that dog offlead on our walks etc along the big canal and orchard or at some of my work places where I am allowed to bring a pup (dangers in many places)?

    I guess the bottom line is we all have different goals and needs in life. I've lost a couple dogs prematurely to things out of my control... one just 11 wks ago. That hurts so badly but I can't even imagine if I didn't equip my dogs to deal w/ every day dangers, how I'd feel to lose one. To me, safety is the bottom line. If the dog is always going to be in a fenced enclosure or on leash, no, you probably don't need all the FF, the ecollars etc, but to see dogs not be able to handle any pressure and run from their owners during obed training after too many reps or whatever, is sad. One of my friends/instructors is dealing w/ this right now. Her girl had a hard time just dealing w/ a butt grab or having someone restrain her lightly for a recall and the dog is 5 yrs old now. The field trainers such as Dobbs, Graham, Hillmann and Lardy have a TON of GREAT ideas that are useful in every day life. One doesn't have to be brutal... and even the ear pinch doesn't have to be brutal. I probably use more of a squeeze myself since my dogs are softer. What I'm reading here w/ the Stillwell article is that ANY kind of pressure makes you a terrible person and/or trainer. My question back is how successful has this Thomas Aaron been in the competition world? A quick search by name on Entry Express brings up nothing. Maybe TuMicks or AlexS or someone else knows? Maybe he's just a companion hunter trainer and if so, I can't tell you how many of those types are perfectly happy w/ far less than I am (eg no delivery to hand, munched on birds, etc).
    I certainly understand what your saying. I use an e-collar anytime we are working or running around outdoors. I use to have more control while they are off leash. Also for their safety. A lot of it is as well is people go with what has worked for them in the past which I certainly understand. While I agree with e-collars I am just not a fan of the FF ear pinch. Actually recently have done research on shed hunting and looked at quite a bit with Jeremy Moore who also teaches a hold command without a FF. To each their own. I am not going to say one is better then the other, but people should realize their are other methods to try.

  5. #74
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Alex... fabulous photo!

    I had one dog that was line bred on River Oaks Rascal. (FT historians will recognize that Rascal was a very successful son of the legendary River Oaks Corky.) I could NOT force fetch him. Know why? He wouldn't wait for any pressure. I went through every step, and whenever I said fetch... he was all over it. I did everything to give myself the opportunity to get any sort of correction or pressure in... no luck. I gave up. He was solid from his exit from the womb until the day he died (too early, unfortunately.)

    Labradorks, I think you are absolutely correct about what the competition standards have done to the lines that we are breeding. Rocket Dog is a crazy wild thing. But it's proven a tremendous asset, because she will take a correction and won't fold. (My older MH... much softer. It is really hard to work on tough set-ups with her because she quits and sulks.) The reason I sought to get a dog like RD is because I found dealing with Bridget was very frustrating. (I love her... she's smart, birdy, a sweetheart. But just frustrating.)

    It was a risk to go to those lines. I didn't know if I would get a dog I couldn't live with, one that was ON all the time. But happily, she is learning to be a sweety around the house. She has had to learn her manners because she can be very rude to the older dogs. So she's gotten corrected for that and is getting more mellow.

    I have a friend who has a Rocket Dog in spades, a big guy who has spent 4 YEARS learning to be steady. Wow... when this dog runs a blind, he RUNS a blind. At top speed. He's awesome. But he is crazy. His owner could have just shrugged and let the dog live in a kennel and go about his career on a pro's truck. That's what most people would have done and probably what his litter-mates are doing. But she (the owner) was determined to make him relax, and learn to live in the house. She was the person who turned me onto Control Unleashed. She has helped me a whole lot with RD.

    But... there is one other reason for using the e-collar that may not have been addressed here and that is the physical limitations of the owners. I have had my knees replaced and am doing better, but there was a time when it was tough to walk beside my dog over uneven ground. I couldn't have a dog that was bouncing or surging, or anything on a leash but staying quietly at my side. Certainly, I couldn't run after my dog if they bolted or otherwise got out of control. Doing a brisk Ob heeling routine would have been difficult for me. So the ability to get small quick corrections in was and is very useful to me. (Think how you might snap a lead slightly to tell the dog he was out of position. That's what I am talking about.) So, when RD is creeping on a mark, I can get a buzz-"HEEL" correction, without a big thrash or any risk to myself and my stability.

    One more thing:

    It is counter-intuitive, but Mike Lardy has made the point that proper understanding of dog behavior, and the development of the infinitely variable e-collar has actually made the breeding pool of field dogs DEEPER. The reason is that the new training methods are NOT as heavy handed as in the old days when only the toughest dogs could reach the FC-NFC levels of achievement. So a dog that would have washed out years ago for being too soft, can now be brought along with proper training and use of the e-collar.

    So there's that. I will happily and whole-heartedly celebrate the handlers and trainers that one day run the Master National on a foundation of positive only training. I am not one who thinks it can't be done. We're just waiting to see if it can. And if Mike Lardy is correct that the modern e-collar has broadened the gene pool of winning labradors, how much more will the advent of the positively trained MN qualifiers do the same.

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  7. #75
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    I have taken a bit more of the Hillman approach by accident w/ my 13 mo old, only because she had such a great concept of Stay at a young age. I keep thinking I still need to FF her and I will, though probably not until after our local obed trials next month where I hope to do RA and BN titles. I have experimented w/ pressure w/ her since she's been CC'd to Here, and by golly, when I had the opportunity last weekend to do some field training w/ an obedience trainer who was here for a workshop, that kid demo'd to me that she really did "get it" about turning the pressure off. We were heeling down the field toward the "line" (had wingers set out), and she saw her friend Barbara and her Golden.. and started to forge ahead. I nicked her and said Heel, and guess what? She promptly got her little tail into heel position w/o any distress. So though I've not FF'd her, I have used a progression in my training starting w/ good solid foundations in obedience which transfer very well to the field. This pup (unlike her mom) is quiet AND steady on the line. Is it all genetics? Or is it the place board training that started early? Or did that prong collar I used at 4.5 mos when she started her first Rally class just convince her that heel is a better place? Or is it the ultimate rewards she gets (the treats, the play, the birds, etc) for doing things right? If they don't ever learn a consequence to a "wrong" behavior, could I trust that dog offlead on our walks etc along the big canal and orchard or at some of my work places where I am allowed to bring a pup (dangers in many places)?

    I guess the bottom line is we all have different goals and needs in life. I've lost a couple dogs prematurely to things out of my control... one just 11 wks ago. That hurts so badly but I can't even imagine if I didn't equip my dogs to deal w/ every day dangers, how I'd feel to lose one. To me, safety is the bottom line. If the dog is always going to be in a fenced enclosure or on leash, no, you probably don't need all the FF, the ecollars etc, but to see dogs not be able to handle any pressure and run from their owners during obed training after too many reps or whatever, is sad. One of my friends/instructors is dealing w/ this right now. Her girl had a hard time just dealing w/ a butt grab or having someone restrain her lightly for a recall and the dog is 5 yrs old now. The field trainers such as Dobbs, Graham, Hillmann and Lardy have a TON of GREAT ideas that are useful in every day life. One doesn't have to be brutal... and even the ear pinch doesn't have to be brutal. I probably use more of a squeeze myself since my dogs are softer. What I'm reading here w/ the Stillwell article is that ANY kind of pressure makes you a terrible person and/or trainer. My question back is how successful has this Thomas Aaron been in the competition world? A quick search by name on Entry Express brings up nothing. Maybe TuMicks or AlexS or someone else knows? Maybe he's just a companion hunter trainer and if so, I can't tell you how many of those types are perfectly happy w/ far less than I am (eg no delivery to hand, munched on birds, etc).
    I respect what you have to say, I really do, and I understand these methods work for you and have for a long time. But, respectfully speaking, there is a way to teach positive reinforcement that results in a very confident dog and one that is as reliable as a dog can get, and yes, even to the upper levels or in real world situations. There is a method to the training and like anything, done incorrectly it's not going to work or it's not going to work well. While positive reinforcement dog training sounds easy, I do believe, like any type of training, there are good and not so good trainers and good and not so good methods, and good trainers are hard to find. There is no doubt that a FF/e-collared dog can have results. However, I personally prefer the results I have seen in positive trained dogs and, the biggie for me is, why would I use those methods when I don't have to? Regardless of your preference, it's awfully short-sighted to believe that your way is the only way and other ways are unsafe or unreliable or unsuccessful.

    We could compare notes all day long and never get anywhere. I've never seen the dogs I know of who are 100% positive trained leave a ring because we condition them to love the ring. I've never seen one run from their owner, either. We do not have the issues you speak of in your post. Not one bit. My trainer and her students do awesome at trials, are high scoring, lots of HITs at the big shows (not just the breed shows, but at our big obedience shows), etc. Many of the dogs hike, go to the beach, definitely spend time outside of a fenced yard or training facility, hunt, herd, agility, track, barn hunt, lure course, show conformation, therapy dog work, rescue stuff (the Newfie), etc. and are regularly out in the real world.

    Keeping in mind that I am a novice, as you pointed out, and that my dogs are not bred for obedience, Linus (20 months) has a wonderful heel without ever so much as a choke chain let alone a prong or e-collar, can sit in blinds all day while guns are going off and birds are falling out of the sky, is steady on the line (he is in a hurry getting there, but he doesn't pull me), got his BN on his first birthday and his RN a week later -- all first places with a high obedience score of 195.5 and a high rally score of 97. We never trialed on home turf. In fact the first time ever in the ring (both of us!) was a dirt floor horse arena with pigeons flying all over and surrounded by busy open and utility rings. On Sam's first try (my second time in the ring) in the horse arena, we came away with a 99 in RN under a tough judge. Sam made the invite list to Rally Nationals last year while Linus barely missed it. I can walk my dogs off-leash and if I want them to come back, if a person with a dog is walking toward us, I can call them back, no problem. And, as far as safety, they are trained not to leave the doorway or the gate and even when my door blew open in December when I wasn't home, they stayed in the house. I do not have a fence in the front yard. Linus also delivers to hand and doesn't munch birds.

    That said, my dogs are not perfect. There are things we work on all the time because they are not so great at them, little quirks who make them who they are and remind me that they are dogs, not robots. But, those things in no way compromise their safety and despite their imperfections, they are doing just fine. And, I don't think I am special and while I do think my dogs are special, in the scheme of things, they really are not. Take from it what you will, but in my opinion, it tells me that what we are doing is working.
    Last edited by Labradorks; 04-26-2015 at 10:47 AM.

  8. #76
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Labradorks... it will be wonderful when we see the positive training methods currently used successfully in obedience/rally and many other venues translate to Master National, and Field Champion levels. It really will. No doubt about it.

    I may not hear about it in my circles (out west, just hanging with my HT buddies) but hope that you will keep us aware of anything along this line that shows promise. I'm always willing to learn new things.

  9. #77
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Labradorks, you also need to realize that your pups are probably MUCH mellower than those handled at most upper field levels as TuMicks is referring to. It's great those methods are working for you in your living situation. This is like talking religion or politics, however. Keep up the great work w/ your pups though. Anne
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    IntCH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX RA JH OA OAJ CC (14.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Ruby Pink BN CD RA CC (4.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Kanzi BN CDX RE JH (5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon ItsOnlyMoneyHoneycrisp BN RN CC (16mos)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Pippin BN RI CC (2.5 yrs)
    IntCH WindyCanyon's Envy CDX RE JH CC (10.5 yrs)
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  10. #78
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Labradorks... it will be wonderful when we see the positive training methods currently used successfully in obedience/rally and many other venues translate to Master National, and Field Champion levels. It really will. No doubt about it.

    I may not hear about it in my circles (out west, just hanging with my HT buddies) but hope that you will keep us aware of anything along this line that shows promise. I'm always willing to learn new things.
    We (as in everyone involved in this thread) seem to vacillate between obedience and field. I have no doubt that 100% positive reinforcement works in obedience and for every day life. I see it all the time, including with my dogs, and in high-energy dogs (I have the only Lab in class, most of the dogs in my classes are Aussies who are also herders and agility dogs). In my area, those are the people to watch, the trainer's lists to get on. That said, I've come to realize that the field trials to the MN and field champion level are going to take some time to get there, not only because of some of the challenges that come with a dog bred specifically for this type of work, but also the culture. I am happy to see that the methods being used are less harsh than in the past. I would love to see more field folks put some obedience into their dogs rather than the kicking, jerking, smacking, yelling BS that I see at the picnic trials. I think it'll happen, and I think it may be happening now as field work has become more and more popular among the obedience folks looking for additional challenges and fun things to do with their dogs. I'm excited to see it happen!

    So, in full disclosure, yesterday at my field training session, we had some challenges and my trainer said that we might have to e-collar him to break him of those things. With Linus' habit of leg lifting and what we call dawdling on the way back with the bird, he'll be hard-pressed to go further in his field career. I never planned anything more than a WC and fun, but he's primed to at least get his JH in the near future, according to the trainer. What I love about this trainer was that we were was able to talk through the issue and come up with an plan. The trainer assumed he was flipping me the paw, but the reality is, I have not been treating field work like actual work, but rather a game, like fetch in a field. I get there and let him run around in the fields peeing and pooping all over, visiting, etc., and I don't get him in work mode. The truth is, we've never had to work on any of it; it's always just been a good time. He's got the obedience down already and I didn't have to train him to get the bird, have a great mouth, bring it back...it all just happened. And, frankly, had I known that I would be getting into this, I would have started him earlier (I started him when he was about 14 months old) and probably differently, baby steps. But, he took to it so quickly and naturally, I did not spend the time starting small as to nix any bad habits in the bud like I did for obedience. Lately he's able to find birds behind trees, in a wooded area, in shadows, etc. and his confidence is building. But the dawdling is an issue regardless of how perfect everything else is coming along and I do not want that to bleed into obedience. He does not know that he's supposed to bring the bird quickly and in a straight line without screwing around because it's never been taught. However, set him up like a formal recall and he's perfect. So, that's what we did, putting a dead bird in the middle of a 100 yard recall. He ran, picked up the bird, and booked it to me without even thinking of stopping to pee. We've got some work to do and future field training sessions will be more structured, and we'll take a few steps back, as well as coming up with additional methods to help him understand there are rules, it's not just fun and games out there.

  11. #79
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    Labradorks, you also need to realize that your pups are probably MUCH mellower than those handled at most upper field levels as TuMicks is referring to. It's great those methods are working for you in your living situation. This is like talking religion or politics, however. Keep up the great work w/ your pups though. Anne
    Right, and I addressed that. But we keep going back to safety and obedience, too. We are, admittedly, all over the place in this thread.

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    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    No worries! As it turns out, with our terrible drought, I may have to travel a LONG way to get to water. The place nearest that has retriever training is used heavily by people working to get their WC's. So I may be rubbing shoulders with more conformation dogs working on field work. I don't think anyone will be horrified by my use of the e-collar. It might prove to be very interesting.

    Rocket dog needs "Swim-by" work. My older dog needs to have reinforcement on DO-NOT-CHEAT because you know you're not supposed to hit shore until you get to the correct place and I know YOU know where that correct place IS!

    So, we desperately need water work.

    We'll see how it goes.

 



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