Originally Posted by
TuMicks
I read the blog and found it very interesting. The author makes the point that time will tell, and that performance speaks louder than philosophy. I don't want to say it cannot be done. But there are also some issues I'd like to raise in response:
I think his point about training methods in the UK and the US is very provocative (in the good sense of that word.) But our hunting is different and has been since... well, since there was hunting on this side of the pond. (The result of a long list of cultural, legal and societal differences between the two continents.) Additionally, I think there is the Yankee notion of "top dog"... who has bragging rights, whose dog is best on that particular day... that might mark us as fundamentally different sorts of dog competitor. Consequently, our trials/HT's reflect those differences... which in turn cause our training to be different and reflect our type of trials/HT's... which then drives the types of dogs we breed... which once again impacts the standards judged in our trials/HT's which once again, in turn, influences our training methods... and on around it goes. (I am not a sociologist. So, no research based knowledge is reflected here.)
IF the positive training methods can equal or supplant the current methods, then I feel sure, the FT/HT community will beat a path to this person's door. I truly believe that. At the same time, I want to suggest that nothing is completely binary. There is some aversion in our current training methods. No doubt about that. But the methods, are not completely aversive. Failure to understand this, muddies the way we look at what we are doing.
Principle among the things that are often missed (indeed completely misunderstood) is the unbelievably potent reward value of the retrieve (especially of duck/pheasant/pigeons) to the well-bred field lab. It is difficult to describe. Yes, most BYB or conformation bred labs love feathers. They get real joy out of picking up something and carrying it around, and they especially enjoy retrieving birds. But the field-bred dog (heavily FC-NFC-CFC-AFC-etc lines) actually crave the bird-retrieve more than they crave life and breath. *Think about that verb... to CRAVE.* Even I did not appreciate this until Rocket Dog came into my life. Her passion just friggin' amazes me. And I thought I understood this. But I. Never. Dreamed... how strong the drive could be.
If we were laboring under the assumption that the nick/burn/zap or ear-pinch, or pain was true aversion, then we'd miss this. Understand, for Rocket Dog, the worst thing I could possibly do to her has nothing to do with a #6-HIGH. Oh, no. The absolute worst thing I can do to her is put her back on the truck after she's seen a bird go down. That, for her, is true agony.
Conversely, the most POWERFUL reinforcement I can give her is to let her get the bird-retrieve. In between those two extremes (back on the truck vrs. a freshly shot duck in her mouth) is teaching her how to increase the positive and decrease the negative in her retrieving experience.
Do you see how what we are doing is hardly "aversive" or "negative" training verses any alternative?
Did Rocket Dog get FF'd? Yes. Did she blast through her lessons? Yes. Why? Not because the pressure was so painful, but because getting the retrieve was more positive than the pressure was painful/negative/aversive. As she is learning, she is getting more and more positive, more ducks, more marked retrieves. As she is learning, she is getting fewer nicks, fewer failures. Her positive is increasing, her negative decreasing.
AND... as the blog suggested, doing this incrementally is a key to success. She never gets pressure for that which she doesn't know or understand. Every concept is added step by step.
Let me cut to the chase...
As the methods of the positive trainers meets with increasing recognition in terms of titles, as their techniques (as applied specifically to retrievers) become more refined, I believe that there will come to be a blending of the two schools.
There has been a big, big evolution in retriever training since the days of James Lamb Free and Rex Carr. It's been informed by a lot of behavioral science and borrowed from the various dog disciplines. I am sure it will continue to do so.