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  1. #1
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I don't get it...

    I need someone to explain to me how conformation titles work. (I only know what I see on TV every year with the WKC. )

    Once you put a CH on the dog, why would you continue to exhibit/show him or her? Isn't it a done deal at that point?

    The reason I ask is this: We have some dogs in our club who are completely show-bred and used primarily in the conformation ring. That's cool... to each his own. And these dogs are kept really porky. I can see why... the owners know what works for them and what they need to do to reach the conformation levels they want to achieve.

    But my understanding is that one of these dogs had gotten titled (at a Specialty??? I guess the win has to be against just labs, or something. It's very byzantine to me.) Anyhow, I thought this dog had all the titles and wins he needed. But 2 years later, and several elbow surgeries later, the dog is still really heavy.

    What is it that I'm missing? Is there something else this dog needs to do in the ring to accomplish some pinnacle in his show career? Please educate me.

  2. #2
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    Well, after the CH they have recently created another title, that of “Grand CH”. I’m not sure exactly the requirements other than continuing to amass points by beating other dogs. Some people do retire the dog after they have achieved the title, but some don’t. Of the ones that do, it is often because they have another dog they want to put the time/money into. But continuing to be out on the show circuit a) gives the owner the fun of wins/showing, especially if they don’t have another dog ready to campaign and b) provides good marketing, especially in the case of a stud dog - the more people that seem him out there winning, the more that will be interested in using him, or in the case of a bitch, the more that might be clamoring for her puppies.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  3. #3
    Senior Dog Meeps83's Avatar
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    It's also a competition. Just like you wouldn't necessarily stop hunt trials after you get a JH, the same goes with the CH title.

  4. #4
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    OK. Makes sense. If my chosen dog sport was conformation, you better believe I'd do what it takes to win... because I'm a competitive and driven person. (I'd like to think I wouldn't deliberately put my dog's health at risk...)

    So... being brutally honest, I've compared Rocket Dog to the breed standard. (It's not a pretty sight) but also done the same with show champions I have known or seen. Here is my analysis FWIW (and you may decide that's not very much.)

    She fails on almost every aesthetic criteria. But... she excels on almost all (but not all) the performance based criteria. We probably are witnessing sub-breeds, no less so than the way smooth and curly coated fox hounds are classified. Same breed, but not. Quod erat demonstrandum

    Breed Standard Rocket Dog Show Champions
    Strongly built Like an Olympic miler (rather than a Kenyan Marathoner) Like an NFL defensive tackle
    Medium sized No. Too lanky Yes
    Short coupled No. All leg and long in the body. Yes
    Sound, athletic See above (built like a track athlete) NO. Absolutely not. Unless the athlete is a Sumo Wrestler
    Well-balanced All 4 feet touch the ground (or I’m not sure what this means) OK.
    Substance and soundness Absolutely More substance, not so sound
    … to hunt waterfowl or upland game for long hours under difficult conditions Absolutely… retrieve after long retrieve. NOT. Gets short of breath easily.
    Character and quality to win in the show ring NOT on your life Absolutely
    Temperament to be a family companion Depends upon the family Yes
    Physical features and mental characteristics to be an efficient retriever of game Absolutely with the emphasis on “efficient” Absolutely not
    Stable temperament suitable for a variety of pursuits beyond the hunting environment Not so much if it requires a great deal of self control. Yes. As long as it doesn’t involve jumping
    Short dense weather resistant coat Short but no undercoat Yep. Lush undercoat
    An otter tail Yes. It just unfortunately curls over her back… a bit Yes
    Clean cut head Yes Yes
    Broad back skull Yes Yes
    Moderate stop Yes Yes
    Powerful jaws Yes. Jaws large and long enough to retrieve an adult goose. Yes. Strong enough to retrieve and crack walnuts.
    Kind, friendly eyes expressing character, intelligence and good temperament Yes Yes

    In terms of temperament... the conformation labs probably are gaining ground on the seriously field bred labs. You may see fewer and fewer FC/AFC/NFC etc. bred dogs in the Ob ring. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

    Conformation bred labs can be physically conditioned to overcome some physical shortcomings, they just can't do it while winning in the ring (until judging changes... and it should.) My $0.02
    Last edited by TuMicks; 04-26-2015 at 06:37 PM.

  5. #5
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    I think you’re stereotyping the show champions to a large degree. While they do tend to be built with a different build than the field dogs, and while SOME get out of breath easily (mostly because they are not properly conditioned rather than due to genetics), and while SOME shouldn’t be doing much jumping there are others that are quite athletic, capable of jumping and capable of hunting either in a days hunt or competing in hunt tests ... witness the ever increasing numbers of CH/MH’s in the breed. Note I’m not saying that they are capable of being successful at field trials, but that’s not what the standard is describing. And I’m by no means saying that all show CH’s meet the performance based parts of the standard, but quite a few do.

    How many actual conformation shows have you been to? If you attend a Lab Specialty, you will see a wide variety of show-bred dogs with builds ranging from sumo wrestler (big, fat and strong) to gymnast (short and muscular). I’ve been involved with Labs for 19 years and in that time have seen the pendulum swing from moderate to extreme and starting to swing back towards a more moderate dog. I still prefer the types of dogs that were winning in the late 1990’s when I first became involved in the breed, but I don’t think that the dogs I’ve seen winning in the past couple years are anywhere near as extreme as they were say 10 years ago.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  6. #6
    Chief Pooper Scooper JenC's Avatar
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    My 90# show bred chocolate boy (he has 4 CH points but unfortunately won't go the distance in the long run) is as thin as I can get him without him starting to look "too thin". He's just not built like that. If he were to have the proper coat, you'd probably think he were closer to 110# if you couldn't actually touch him.

    Yes, there are many dogs that could stand to lose weight, but there are also many in shape big labs who are winning that people just think are fat because they don't know any different.

    Touchy subject. I look at some of the hunting dogs and wonder why people don't just give those dogs an extra cup of food.

  7. #7
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    As I said... I think some of the negatives I've mentioned about performance for the CH's could be fixed with physical conditioning, but not while those dogs are in the show ring under current judging criteria. I only know the show dogs I know and can view on line. But (and this is to be brutally honest about Rocket Dog and her ilk) you could do whatever you wanted to field bred dogs and they would still be... well, hmmmm how to say this gently... they would still be beautiful in their owners' eyes.

    I hear all the snarky comments made about show labs. But 85-90% of of the criticism relates specifically to the way those dogs are shown, not the dogs themselves. I have demonstrated how little I know about the conformation ring and I'd wager to say I know more than many FT/HT folks. But we can read and write. And when the standard says that a Champion labrador should "[be able to] hunt... game for long hours under difficult conditions" we aren't stupid. Those dogs as currently shown cannot meet that standard. To try to make them do so is cruel and physically damaging to them.

    So why am I beating this dead horse? One... I love the breed. Two... I see some people working their dogs on field work, and it doesn't look healthy at all. It honestly scares me sometimes. I look at the terrain and wonder if the heavy labs can handle the slope of the embankment, or make it over the next berm. (It's painful to watch, sometimes.) I am aware of the temperature and sun and worry that maybe this dog shouldn't try the third bird on that triple... I can see that they're coming in slower and slower with each retrieve.

    Nota bene: There's been a robust discussion on another thread about the consequences on the breed of the type of competition occurring in FT and Master Nationals. Are the high acheiving dogs throwing pups who are increasingly too driven, too spirited, often restless and without an "off-switch" (not to mention aesthetically too far from standard). Is it not always worth it to stop and weigh what we're doing to the breed?

    Yes, it's a touchy subject. But when FT got too extreme for the average hunter, they began the huge hunting retriever movement (which initially, AKC didn't want to touch. Until the UKC began having huge responses from the hunting community. Now the AKC acts like they invented it. Not so.) Yes, the heavily field bred dogs are being successfully run in HT's. But since dogs are judged against a standard, any competent BYB, or hunting lab can have his day in the sun.

    Are there comparable rumbles in conformation circles?

  8. #8
    Real Retriever Archie's Avatar
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    I'm no expert, but I was interested in conformation. So, I got to know a good breeder, went to some all-breed and lab specialty shows, asked lots of questions, and have ended up with a show bred puppy I plan to show in conformation.

    From what I've gathered so far, you can't paint all conformation labs with the same brush. You'll hear some show breeders calling other show breeders' labs "overdone." You can find a show breeder whose practices are more in line with what you value in a lab.

    Another thing that really surprised me was the genetic difference in structure. Archie is BYB field bred, Quinn is show bred. I couldn't believe even as a 10-week old puppy how differently she was built. And at that age, it has nothing to do with being fat or underconditioned - it's all genetics.

    Another thing that drives me crazy is the tendency to criticize show labs because they couldn't do a field trial.
    1. a lot can, and do.
    2. they weren't bred for field trials, they were bred for hunting. Speed was less important, endurance was less important. They had to be calm and patient, but able to do the job when necessary. Hunt "for long hours" doesn't mean they are hunting the whole time. A lot of that time is spent sitting and waiting, maybe in the rain and cold so they have to be tough with a great coat.

    That's my take, anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by JenC View Post
    Touchy subject. I look at some of the hunting dogs and wonder why people don't just give those dogs an extra cup of food.
    yes, I'd second this.
    Last edited by Archie; 04-27-2015 at 11:33 AM.
    Laura, Archie & Quinn
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  10. #9
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    If the AKC ever announces they are going to radically alter their standard... and all bets were off... like if one of their directors began smoking crack and wanted to make the standard follow the lines of Rocket Dog... I would be taking up your cause and demanding they NOT do it. She should not be the standard.

    I am crazy about her because I can tell she LOVES what she's doing. She's not mildly interested in it or finds carrying things in her mouth sort of fun... she lives for retrieving feathers. I am not making her do anything... that is such an incredible feeling. What a kick. Hard for me to express in words.

    RD would cause a riot at a dog show. She would have no dignity at all. OMG... it would be pure slapstick.

    So my dog could not do what yours do. Your dogs can retrieve and hunt. In fact they do. They could not do it on the level of RD or her progenitors... but some of their offspring do it very well for lots of hunters. Per my original post, my irritation is that your dogs are sometimes being asked to do it (field work) in the acquired (as in human-induced) phenotype that is demanded in the show ring and it's one that can only be functional in the show ring. Thus, it is unhealthful for these show competitors to try to train for meaningful field work in show-shape.

    I'm not scornful of your dogs, or your game in general. But the AKC should probably explain how they justify their conformation judging practices in light of their written standard.

  11. #10
    Real Retriever Archie's Avatar
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    My take on it is that field bred dogs are for a very particular purpose and need a very particular type of owner. Dogs and handlers are happy doing what the dog was bred to do, and that's great!

    The show bred lab is pretty much great for anyone else and is really versatile, great for pet owners, families, various sports, and yes, hunting.

    But like I said, you can find a show breeder who breeds moderate dogs. Not all show bred labs are the same physically. You breed what you like, according to your interpretation of the standard.
    Laura, Archie & Quinn
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