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  1. #21
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Different dogs require different handling techniques. Is Linus your older dog? If so, maybe it's due to holes in foundation training. My Nov A dog was Gala... she started training w/ competition dogs when only ~6 mos old and started competing for her CD a month or so before her 2nd bday. Her mom was 5.5 yrs old at the time, and so I decided if Gala could do it, Winnie needed to also. Winnie was a tougher dog because she had not had the same polished training as a pup, and in fact, had been taught to "heel" on the right for my ex husband. That was a chore to undo after 5.5 yrs, let me tell you. She thought I was the most unfair stupid person in the world, I'm sure. And Stay (as in group sits) really just meant stay in that location, so she'd lay down... Needless to say, she didn't "enjoy" obedience (again, we had no rally back then), for that first year or so. My goal was a CD, which she earned, but it was pretty apparent she didn't like to heel, etc. I had to use her frisbee game as the reward there, and that helped a lot. Then after I 'retired' her, I saw how jealous she'd get of my attention to Gala in training for CDX so I'd take her out for 5-10 min and did a retrieve exercise one day. A few days later, showed her the broad jump, etc. All in fun, just to appease her. So guess who finished the CDX before her daughter? So here was a dog that hated obedience because I "moved her cheese" after 5 yrs and it was probably pretty confusing to her, but between doing the CD and JH, she learned that the training time w/ mom WAS fun and that changed her whole attitude. She was indeed a very difficult dog to motivate compared to her daughter (more food/ toy motivated), but once I figured it out, she was a very happy worker. I'm pretty sure she'd have thought Rally was dumb at the time too.

    Little Ruby did pretty well last night at her rally class, though I had to pull her off group heeling exercises half way thru as she was starting to fade on me. I think that's where some people burn out their pups... not knowing it's okay to read your dog and quit while you still have some attention. She was pretty pooped by the time class was done!
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  3. #22
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    Different dogs require different handling techniques. Is Linus your older dog? If so, maybe it's due to holes in foundation training. My Nov A dog was Gala... she started training w/ competition dogs when only ~6 mos old and started competing for her CD a month or so before her 2nd bday. Her mom was 5.5 yrs old at the time, and so I decided if Gala could do it, Winnie needed to also. Winnie was a tougher dog because she had not had the same polished training as a pup, and in fact, had been taught to "heel" on the right for my ex husband. That was a chore to undo after 5.5 yrs, let me tell you. She thought I was the most unfair stupid person in the world, I'm sure. And Stay (as in group sits) really just meant stay in that location, so she'd lay down... Needless to say, she didn't "enjoy" obedience (again, we had no rally back then), for that first year or so. My goal was a CD, which she earned, but it was pretty apparent she didn't like to heel, etc. I had to use her frisbee game as the reward there, and that helped a lot. Then after I 'retired' her, I saw how jealous she'd get of my attention to Gala in training for CDX so I'd take her out for 5-10 min and did a retrieve exercise one day. A few days later, showed her the broad jump, etc. All in fun, just to appease her. So guess who finished the CDX before her daughter? So here was a dog that hated obedience because I "moved her cheese" after 5 yrs and it was probably pretty confusing to her, but between doing the CD and JH, she learned that the training time w/ mom WAS fun and that changed her whole attitude. She was indeed a very difficult dog to motivate compared to her daughter (more food/ toy motivated), but once I figured it out, she was a very happy worker. I'm pretty sure she'd have thought Rally was dumb at the time too.

    Little Ruby did pretty well last night at her rally class, though I had to pull her off group heeling exercises half way thru as she was starting to fade on me. I think that's where some people burn out their pups... not knowing it's okay to read your dog and quit while you still have some attention. She was pretty pooped by the time class was done!
    Linus is younger and Sam is the one with holes in his foundation training, if I had to pick one. Actually, same trainer for the same amount of time. Different dogs. Linus loves to work. He asks to work. No, he BEGS to work. If I take a break from class, he gets a granuloma on his foot -- it's happened twice and goes away within two weeks of starting class again. In training he is brilliant. In the ring not so much. He is solid in his exercises and could get his CD easily, but it's not the picture I want to present nor do I feel comfortable asking my dog to perform when he's clearly so stressed. He is not drilled -- I've never believed in it even as a teenager training and showing horses. Saw first hand how they can sour. We do field work for fun and have been for nearly a year. He is very well trained and very easy to train. The dog has a great life and his training is thoughtful. He is motivated by food, toys, play, pets, talking, anything really. Just loves to work, just not Rally.

    I have a video from the Denise Fenzi workshop. He is at his home training facility but the ring is different, there are speakers, there's a strange lady, and there are about 100 people in chairs around the ring, staring, not to mention movement as people take their dogs out, use the bathroom, get water, etc. He was brilliant and I could not emulate his ring behavior. Denise thought he was great and I can't tell you how many compliments I received, people walking up to me asking me where I got him, complimenting his style, performance, attention, enthusiasm, willingness, and heart. All die-hard obedience people. I was actually a bit overwhelmed. I later sent Denise a video of him in the ring. I also sent the two videos to a few other famous professional trainers as well as to my own trainer (I have not trialed him since I started working with her), my trainer's trainer, and respected friends in obedience, including a pair who have been training and showing Labs for 20+ years and practically can't leave a trial without HITs with their Labs plus are animal behaviorists at ivy league colleges on the east coast (they work with Connie Cleveland). Same response from everyone who replied (the majority): Trialed too soon for the dog. Stressed in the ring.

  4. #23
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Interesting you mention Connie Cleveland as she firmly believes in conditioning dogs to stress. That includes e-collar, ear pinch, pinch collar etc. I do the FF program as a matter of course here, though have only done the very basic components (as much if not more than most obed folks would--- just not the water force or force to pile for the field yet). IOW, my dogs know how to "turn off" pressure and learn that at a relatively young age. I see the benefit of it all too, because if a dog learns not to melt to applied pressure, they can handle the rest much better. She also does "motivational collar pops" that some think are negative but they are actually the opposite if the dog is conditioned to them. My dogs love the process of being roughed up-- I do it routinely in play w/ my youngsters.

    Just as an aside, the Early Neurological Stimulation program (ENS, aka Super Puppy) is also touted to help w/ immune development and tolerance to external stimuli. I've been doing that w/ my litters for ~15 yrs now from day 3 or 4 thru ~day 16 of the puppies' lives. I think all of the above are good things to help prevent ring stress, and of course, training in multiple locations, indoors and out are key. I just got back from an obed committee mtg and we are planning a rotational type training class where we will travel to different parks each week so we get different distractions. My desire is to design a new class just for focus and distraction training that would help everyone at any competition level. So many things to do, and so little time to do it w/ these young dogs. Off to a Novice/ Open class w/ Kanzi tonite where we'll work inside due to the extreme heat.
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  5. #24
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    Interesting you mention Connie Cleveland as she firmly believes in conditioning dogs to stress. That includes e-collar, ear pinch, pinch collar etc. I do the FF program as a matter of course here, though have only done the very basic components (as much if not more than most obed folks would--- just not the water force or force to pile for the field yet). IOW, my dogs know how to "turn off" pressure and learn that at a relatively young age. I see the benefit of it all too, because if a dog learns not to melt to applied pressure, they can handle the rest much better. She also does "motivational collar pops" that some think are negative but they are actually the opposite if the dog is conditioned to them. My dogs love the process of being roughed up-- I do it routinely in play w/ my youngsters.

    Just as an aside, the Early Neurological Stimulation program (ENS, aka Super Puppy) is also touted to help w/ immune development and tolerance to external stimuli. I've been doing that w/ my litters for ~15 yrs now from day 3 or 4 thru ~day 16 of the puppies' lives. I think all of the above are good things to help prevent ring stress, and of course, training in multiple locations, indoors and out are key. I just got back from an obed committee mtg and we are planning a rotational type training class where we will travel to different parks each week so we get different distractions. My desire is to design a new class just for focus and distraction training that would help everyone at any competition level. So many things to do, and so little time to do it w/ these young dogs. Off to a Novice/ Open class w/ Kanzi tonite where we'll work inside due to the extreme heat.
    Funny you should mention it. I called my friends after the WC to catch up and asked if they FF or CC. They told me they have never FF'ed an obedience dog and out of the five dogs they have titled in field (they go up to JH presently) -- they are only about 10 years into field work -- they have FF'ed two because the dogs started to refuse. They have used e-collars on one for various reasons (in the field). My friend told me that all of these dogs that were FFed and CCed were her husband's dogs and he trains a little differently than she does. Otherwise, just flat-buckle collars, definitely not prongs. I honestly do not personally know anyone who FFs who currently does obedience. Linus has been turning off pressure since he stepped foot in my house, I just choose to do it in other ways that do not involve physical pain. Free shaping, withholding, proofing, all create pressure. They also make the dog problem solve under stress. Same philosophy as the FF, right? He never walks away from the pressure, either, or lays down and gives up or looks like he's been beaten. I was just teaching him to sit on a platform using free shaping and he pulled all his tricks out of the bag trying to figure it out. It does not intimidate him in the least bit.

    What you're not understanding is that the dog is fine outside of a ring. Literally. I can heel around the outside of a ring and he's brilliant. When we step inside he shuts down. Inside a barn that we've never been to? Fine. Outside in the grass? That's fine, too. Five rings with dogs jumping and retrieving cool stuff? That works! Expo center? Cool with that. Horses, cows, goats, chickens, ducks? Not a problem. Kids, dogs, strollers, wheelchairs? Fine. We do proofing in class. Trainer pets and talks to him while he's in a sit stay before a recall and won't break. Stand for exam and she pulls his collar a little? Doesn't move. Waves a treat in his face while he's sitting at heel? Doesn't even bother to look at her. Etc. Etc. Etc.

    I've got plenty of exercises I need to do to help the situation. As this is so common, there are many avenues to take. The one thing that reassured me is that everyone said, "yeah, that's normal" and when I asked if it could be fixed they said, "yep, we do it every day". And, I've been reassured that it's a mistake nearly everyone will make in their obedience "career". Hearing that, I don't feel so bad, but it sure does suck!

  6. #25
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    Funny you should mention it. I called my friends after the WC to catch up and asked if they FF or CC. They told me they have never FF'ed an obedience dog and out of the five dogs they have titled in field (they go up to JH presently) -- they are only about 10 years into field work -- they have FF'ed two because the dogs started to refuse. They have used e-collars on one for various reasons (in the field). My friend told me that all of these dogs that were FFed and CCed were her husband's dogs and he trains a little differently than she does. Otherwise, just flat-buckle collars, definitely not prongs. I honestly do not personally know anyone who FFs who currently does obedience. Linus has been turning off pressure since he stepped foot in my house, I just choose to do it in other ways that do not involve physical pain. Free shaping, withholding, proofing, all create pressure. They also make the dog problem solve under stress. Same philosophy as the FF, right? He never walks away from the pressure, either, or lays down and gives up or looks like he's been beaten. I was just teaching him to sit on a platform using free shaping and he pulled all his tricks out of the bag trying to figure it out. It does not intimidate him in the least bit.

    What you're not understanding is that the dog is fine outside of a ring. Literally. I can heel around the outside of a ring and he's brilliant. When we step inside he shuts down. Inside a barn that we've never been to? Fine. Outside in the grass? That's fine, too. Five rings with dogs jumping and retrieving cool stuff? That works! Expo center? Cool with that. Horses, cows, goats, chickens, ducks? Not a problem. Kids, dogs, strollers, wheelchairs? Fine. We do proofing in class. Trainer pets and talks to him while he's in a sit stay before a recall and won't break. Stand for exam and she pulls his collar a little? Doesn't move. Waves a treat in his face while he's sitting at heel? Doesn't even bother to look at her. Etc. Etc. Etc.

    I've got plenty of exercises I need to do to help the situation. As this is so common, there are many avenues to take. The one thing that reassured me is that everyone said, "yeah, that's normal" and when I asked if it could be fixed they said, "yep, we do it every day". And, I've been reassured that it's a mistake nearly everyone will make in their obedience "career". Hearing that, I don't feel so bad, but it sure does suck!
    Honestly, you need to step back and re-evaluate. Your dog is stressing, which to me says he DOES NOT know how to turn off pressure well enough. YES, you can FF w/ different tools. AND NO!!! Dammit!!!!! IT DOES NOT INVOLVE PHYSICAL PAIN! Sorry but I am SO sick of you trying to tell ME (who btw has had SEVERAL VERY SENSITIVE LABS) that I'm killing my dogs by FFing them. ARghhhhh. You have 2 dogs who have earned entry level (sub novice) titles that many of us really don't even care to count to be honest. I'm on my 6th generation, 14th puppy here. Come back and lecture me when you are there. I'm really done w/ the holier than though lectures from you. You seem to know it all but can't get a CD yet, so I smell a rat.
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  7. #26
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Btw, one of the Poodle breeder / owners told me at the class tonite that she was SOLD on my early training protocol. She has a 7 yo who is miles behind 14 mo old Kanzi in his confidence and level of training. She's been following my training regimen since last fall when Kanzi was a whopping 6mos old and had already handily (w/o stressing) earned her RN. She already had a solid hold and formal retrieve at 16 wks and that's what we used as our "trick" for the Halloween Party (I don't "do" trick training). So tell me how my "physical pain" is making my dogs so fun, outgoing and yet steady/ compliant? How else do you think I was able to bounce this pup from stress over a Newf (who attacked her in the ring at class) to getting a 97 in RN when I only had a minute to do so? I'm no wonder trainer, just a common sensed balanced trainer w/ decent dogs to work with. Sorry to the rest but I'm really sick of being lectured at by someone w/ very limited exposure to the whole training world.

    Despite my work keeping me busy 110 days straight every fall, then following that by 2 if not 3 litters in the winter, I have still managed to put 5 generations of CDX JH +++ titles on my dogs. I must be doing SOMETHING right. And no one, NOT ONE person who knows me will ever say my dogs are anything but happy. I do know about ring nerves. Had one... and guess what? Part was genetic, but most was inadequate pressure conditioning w/ her. IOW, my screw up. That was 10-12 yrs ago, so had a lot to do w/ my current training protocol. To some, it really doesn't matter but to me as a breeder, I'd rather know where my weaknesses are so I can breed accordingly w/o sugar coating the problems.
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  8. #27
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but there are other methods and they work as well, sometimes better, sometimes not. Your way is not the only way. This is not my opinion, it's a quantifiable fact. And just because someone doesn't agree with you, is that really a reason for a personal attack? I don't claim to know it all; I am working alongside professionals who are very successful -- even more successful than you are with dozens of students also more successful than you, since we're measuring these things here -- and I respect their methods which is why I chose them for trainers. I never asked you to tell me what you think is wrong with my dog or our training methods. Yet, you critisized everything without knowing anything. In any case, I don't think the answer to my problem is a forced fetch and a shock collar.

    You're right, I don't have my dog's CD, but why should that make everything I've learned irrelevant? Did I compete and fail? Did I lose? Did I just start training yesterday -- oh but wait, none of that matters because I haven't tried to trial? I know people using the Koehler methods are more titled than anyone on this board combined, but I would not call them successful. I know we'd qualify for our CD, but I choose not to trial at the moment because I'm not sticking my dog in a ring to satisfy my own ego, and my goal isn't just to quality or just to title. How does that make me a rat?

    ETA: I've had these same conversations with old school breeders, field people, people who haven't shown obedience since the 1990s, 80 year old ladies who have always shown obedience, you name it. I am at dog events literally every weekend, I am on boards, I belong to clubs, etc., so plenty of dog training conversations to be had. And while a few are die-hard, "You can't even throw a ball for your Lab without a FF!" most are more than willing to have these conversations. Sometimes we agree to disagree and sometimes one of us goes back and says, "That's interesting. I'll have to look into that more/try that method on my dog." Sometimes, like in the case of the WC, I receive compliments on how I handle my dog and these people are shocked that I do not FF or CC because they thought that was the only way. The fact that they were not aware of other methods is sad, regardless of which they chose to go with. No one has ever been disrespectful to me because I haven't had as many dogs or whatever. An intelligent conversation is an intelligent conversation. No need to get defensive and nasty. That said, at least now I know!
    Last edited by Labradorks; 06-10-2015 at 02:23 AM.

  9. #28
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Go look in the mirror. Why sabotage everyone elses' positive posts just because you think they aren't doing it the right way (even though you've not done it yet). Personal attack by me? No, by YOU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I'm sorry, but there are other methods and they work as well, sometimes better, sometimes not. Your way is not the only way. This is not my opinion, it's a quantifiable fact. And just because someone doesn't agree with you, is that really a reason for a personal attack? I don't claim to know it all; I am working alongside professionals who are very successful -- even more successful than you are with dozens of students also more successful than you, since we're measuring these things here -- and I respect their methods which is why I chose them for trainers. I never asked you to tell me what you think is wrong with my dog or our training methods. Yet, you critisized everything without knowing anything. In any case, I don't think the answer to my problem is a forced fetch and a shock collar.

    You're right, I don't have my dog's CD, but why should that make everything I've learned irrelevant? Did I compete and fail? Did I lose? Did I just start training yesterday -- oh but wait, none of that matters because I haven't tried to trial? I know people using the Koehler methods are more titled than anyone on this board combined, but I would not call them successful. I know we'd qualify for our CD, but I choose not to trial at the moment because I'm not sticking my dog in a ring to satisfy my own ego, and my goal isn't just to quality or just to title. How does that make me a rat?
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  10. #29
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    Go look in the mirror. Why sabotage everyone elses' positive posts just because you think they aren't doing it the right way (even though you've not done it yet). Personal attack by me? No, by YOU.
    By "everyone else's positive posts" you mean this one thread of yours, right?

    I am sorry you feel that way, it was not my intention. Especially since it had nothing to do with you. If I had to do it over, I would have started a new thread. I have no doubt, however, that you would have chimed in and this same discussion would have taken place.

    So, while I apologize for sabotoging your thread, I certainly did not attack you.

  11. #30
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Thanks. And yes, start a new thread before running someone's successful breeding/ training program into the dirt on a public forum in the future. Calling my methods "Physically painful" when you have NO personal experience with advanced training, yes that is attacking. You don't even know me, so don't you dare accuse me of abuse. You have NO idea about my relationships w/ my dogs, Julie, and quite frankly you have a lot of balls if you consider what I've gone thru w/ my losses these past 4 mos. Thanks a bunch for just shitting on my one little brag since then.
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