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  1. #1
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    Another take on overweight show dogs

    When I was in the UK last March, I met a young lady from Switzerland who has a Dog from Bruce's litter. We've been in touch by email and she sent me this in a recent email. We discussed the issue of fat dogs when we were sitting ringside at Cruft's watching the judging. Both of us were in agreement that many of the dogs shown were not in anywhere close to working condition, some bordering on outright obesity. I had told here in a recent email that I was contemplating showing Bruce, but was reluctant as I didn't want to have fatten him up to show him. I XXXXed out the judges name. Evidently the judges at the European shows must fill out a report on each dog shown.

    She emailed me today, and had this comment:

    "Yes, the showing is everywhere the same! I do not understand, why the Labradors must be FAT! In the Scandinavian Countries and now also in Switzerland they printed a new section on the Report-Form. It is called FIT for FUNCTION. The judge must tell whether the dog is still fit to do the job which he was formerly bred for. Last weekend I was ringsteward at the international dog show in Geneva and while I wrote the reports I learned quite a lot. The judge was from Belgium Mr. XXXXXXXX. He did not like the Labradors shown, since most of them were far too heavy. Most upset was he with the Working Class since only one of all them looked like she was used regurarly for hunting. The rest he named "once only workers". Many breeders are torn between having healthy dogs and successful show dogs. Many do feed them up for the shows. It is still believed that judges prefer fat dogs!"

    I thought this was a very interesting perspective.

  2. #2
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    You won't have to fatten Bruce up for UKC or Intl' shows. Some of the dogs that show and do well or win best of breed in these venues don't even look like Labs. I would guess that you could take Bruce to a show right this second without so much as brushing him and he would do very well. It is a whole different world as compared to AKC. It's like local beauty pageants at Holiday Inn vs. the one on TV. I wouldn't worry about it at all.

    It's amazing to me how much weight a conformation Lab can put on before he is actually really fat. Sam has gotten up to 110 (he is 80 now) and while he was chunky, he was not even close to being a walking coffee table and he was still very active. Linus got up to 96 at a year old and he, too, is now 80. He was never what I'd call fat and he was doing field work at that weight.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    It's amazing to me how much weight a conformation Lab can put on before he is actually really fat. Sam has gotten up to 110 (he is 80 now) and while he was chunky, he was not even close to being a walking coffee table and he was still very active. Linus got up to 96 at a year old and he, too, is now 80. He was never what I'd call fat and he was doing field work at that weight.
    How are you defining “actually really fat”? Were you still able to easily find their ribs at those weights or was it more that they didn’t “look” fat to you? I think it is very easy to fool the eye (in both directions - some dogs that look “fat” may just have a more abundant coat, while some that don’t look too fat are covered in excess padding), so the only thing I really like to rely on when judging the fitness of a dog is both putting my hands on the dog and watching them work to see how heavily they are breathing after a run, etc.

    That said, while at a Lab Specialty a couple months ago, I noticed that while many of the breed dogs were still heavier than I like to keep mine, I do feel like they were (as a group) in much better condition than even a few years ago, so I feel like the trend towards putting excess weight on conformation dogs may (hopefully) be reversing.
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  4. #4
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    At Potomac each year (the show with the greatest number of Lab entries worldwide), often times several of the judges are from overseas. Each year they are complimentary about our American dogs. Everyone thinks we have all these "fat" Labs, but the truth is some segment of breed specialists keep heavy or overdone dogs, but the rest are fit for function. The judges' notes reflect that. They indicate that some in the breed need to take weight off, but they find much to love about the Labs bred here, which is reflected in the fact that breeders in Lab programs worldwide are importing OUR bloodlines into their kennels.

    If you think Bruce has merit, and would be a credit to the breed, get him out there. You do NOT have to fatten him up. There are plenty of judges who like a moderate dog, including knowledgable all-rounders at all breed shows. If you are a competent handler, or have a competant handler, you get out to enough shows, and your dog is a good example of breed type, you WILL get points. I am not armchair quarterbacking here -- I have first-hand knowledge of this, because the dog I am currently showing is moderate. When he is in coat, he might seem like more, but he's not fat, has good length of leg, neck, and a correct head/muzzle. He is also a great pickup dog, although we haven't been trying to get titles in hunt tests yet, and I am always gone at Potomac during my local test weekend.

  5. #5
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    My almost 10 mo old, Ruby, is most likely going to be shown in AKC conformation next year and will probably not look too far out of place in the puppy classes at least. She has the most gorgeous/ proper coat (even my field friends have wowed it...), so despite keeping her on the lean side, she should still fit in and according to the stud owner who saw her a couple months ago, she should do well.

    What I've noticed w/ many of the show lines is they have different places to put that weight that the old fashioned or field labs don't. Many of the show labs from the winning lines out here are quite deep bodied (I always think Newf/ Saint body structure-- very rectangular looking from the side-- just a side point, but that Newf in the dog show yesterday was to die for, imo, btw!!!!). Anyhow, a lot of extra weight can be stored right there. The dog I bred to (Ruby's sire) is quite "broad" in his back also. So there you have more room to add fat that isn't visible or palpable in many cases. Some of the dogs are carrying a significant amount of fat in the chest and shoulder area--- and this IS palpable in most cases, and I think it is visible on the move in most of these dogs too. However, there are some Lab lines w/ a lot of extra skin too, so that is confusing to many who think their dog is lean if that skin isn't "full". Hope that makes sense.... Anne
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  6. #6
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Working retriever people have also commented on how conformation labs are looking more fit and less fat. (I guess the breed club sent a letter to AKC judges about the issue.)

    What I find really appealing in a working lab is the well developed musculature of back end and chest. Should this not be the measure of a FUNCTIONING sporting dog? What I notice in dogs that are not worked is flat or even concave appearance over the bicepts femoris area. But a dog that is in the water... especially sprinting after a marked retrieve, they develop deltoids and tricepts that make the chest wider and deeper.

    Don't judge Pete (FC AFC River run's True North) by conformation standards. I know most of you would fault him in many ways. That's OK. I only put his picture here to show you that muscle on a working dog really stands out and can be striking.

    Instead of putting fat on dogs to make them appear to have more "substance" wouldn't it be better to actually work the dog, and build them up performing that for which they were bred? I realize that a plush coat might obscure the muscle mass, but a good judge would be able to palpate it.

    Working retrievers get trained daily. I don't see why conformation labs couldn't also.

    (Pete is Rocket Dog's sire.)
    Last edited by TuMicks; 11-27-2015 at 01:15 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Working retriever people have also commented on how conformation labs are looking more fit and less fat. (I guess the breed club sent a letter to AKC judges about the issue.)

    What I find really appealing in a working lab is the well developed musculature of back end and chest. Should this not be the measure of a FUNCTIONING sporting dog? What I notice in dogs that are not worked is flat or even concave appearance over the bicepts femoris area. But a dog that is in the water... especially sprinting after a marked retrieve, they develop deltoids and tricepts that make the chest wider and deeper.

    Don't judge Pete (FC AFC River run's True North) by conformation standards. I know most of you would fault him in many ways. That's OK. I only put his picture here to show you that muscle on a working dog really stands out and can be striking.

    Instead of putting fat on dogs to make them appear to have more "substance" wouldn't it be better to actually work the dog, and build them up performing that for which they were bred? I realize that a plush coat might obscure the muscle mass, but a good judge would be able to palpate it.

    Working retrievers get trained daily. I don't see why conformation labs couldn't also.

    (Pete is Rocket Dog's sire.)
    We have discussed this before. A Lab with a correct coat and the same muscling as a thinner-coated field-type dog is not going to look the same. How do you know the show dogs you are seeing aren't made of muscle vs. fat? How do you know people aren't working their conformation dogs daily? We can find fault at every end of the spectrum. Everyone has their preferences.

  8. #8
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    -duchy-moose-jpg-jpg Because the poses are so different, it's impossible to compare the two dogs. But I've put some contrast into this picture to highlight two things. First, where there should be a bulge at the bicepts femoris, there is a somewhat prominent divot. But you can see a roll that begins behind the dog's neck and extends to behind his elbows. I don't think this roll is plush fur. I think it's adipose.

    You often can discern absence of well developed muscle by visual inspection. To compare muscle mass on two labs with thick coats... yes. I think the judge would have to palpate to put dog A up over dog B.

    We have indeed explored many things about field labs and conformation labs. This is not a better/worse discussion. It was about form and function. I am not arguing for field bred dogs.

    You can't tell by looking at Pete's picture, whether or not he has a rich undercoat. But you could absolutely add coat to that dog and you'd still see the mass of muscle he developed in field work.

    And I am not sure what conflict you're suggesting in your critique. Any lab of any breeding can be muscled out. My only point is that it would be an admirable metric if judges were to apply it in the show ring.
    Last edited by TuMicks; 11-27-2015 at 02:07 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    -duchy-moose-jpg-jpg Because the poses are so different, it's impossible to compare the two dogs. But I've put some contrast into this picture to highlight two things. First, where there should be a bulge at the bicepts femoris, there is a somewhat prominent divot. But you can see a roll that begins behind the dog's neck and extends to behind his elbows. I don't think this roll is plush fur. I think it's adipose.

    You often can discern absence of well developed muscle by visual inspection. To compare muscle mass on two labs with thick coats... yes. I think the judge would have to palpate to put dog A up over dog B.

    We have indeed explored many things about field labs and conformation labs. This is not a better/worse discussion. It was about form and function. I am not arguing for field bred dogs.

    You can't tell by looking at Pete's picture, whether or not he has a rich undercoat. But you could absolutely add coat to that dog and you'd still see the mass of muscle he developed in field work.

    And I am not sure what conflict you're suggesting in your critique. Any lab of any breeding can be muscled out. My only point is that it would be an admirable metric if judges were to apply it in the show ring.
    I don't understand your argument. Just because someone keeps their conformation Lab fat or judges like fat dogs, that doesn't mean that it was bred fat. If you believe that a dog can be muscled out regardless of breeding, then it's not a breed thing, it's an animal husbandry thing.

    In any case, Pete clearly does not have a conformation Lab coat and you would lose much of the muscle definition if he did. Being that he is black, it would shore more than a yellow dog, however. Pete is also a completely different body type than a conformation Lab. Much like a pointer or a greyhound many field Labs are muscular regardless of the type of workouts they receive. And, we go back to the argument that Labs were not meant to compete in the types of field trials they are currently competing in. For a dog to go hunting, he does not require intense daily workout sessions.

    How many conformation type dogs have you spent a good deal of time around?

  10. #10
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I don't understand your argument.Seriously... I don't have an argument. Just because someone keeps their conformation Lab fat or judges like fat dogs, that doesn't mean that it was bred fat. If you believe that a dog can be muscled out regardless of breeding, then it's not a breed thing, it's an animal husbandry thing. Exactly so. If you run your dog and swim him almost daily... you get a dog with more defined musculature, which may or may not stand out visually... but could most certainly be palpated. I think we can agree on that.

    In any case, Pete clearly does not have a conformation Lab coat. Probably not and you would lose much of the muscle definition if he did. Doubtless. Being that he is black, it would shore more than a yellow dog, however. Pete is also a completely different body type than a conformation Lab. No argument from me. He is. Much like a pointer or a greyhound many field Labs are muscular regardless of the type of workouts they receive. Here you're wrong. A field bred lab that doesn't work, is just a leggy, high-energy dog. Not a muscular or fit one. And, btw... I'd go so far as to say that dogs whose purpose is to cover a lot of ground all day, one that is hunted behind on horseback, these dogs are muscled and put together very differently than labs. It's the difference between an Olympic athlete who runs the marathon vrs. one that runs the 440. Labs have more explosive athleticism... the game is already down, his job is to get it in a hurry, because more than one bird will be down. You see it in gluts and bicepts. Not to mention swimming muscles. And, we go back to the argument that Labs were not meant to compete in the types of field trials they are currently competing in. This isn't what the OP began discussing. For a dog to go hunting, he does not require intense daily workout sessions.

    How many conformation type dogs have you spent a good deal of time around?
    Here is the pertinent part of the breed standard. This is straight from their website. My ONLY point was that a useful metric in judging the standard is to examine the dog for muscle mass. That's it. My purpose in putting Pete's picture up was to demonstrate how the lab can muscle out when it is in working trim. The issue of coat is not what we're talking about. A useful discussion for other threads, but not the point here.

    Substance and bone proportionate to the overall dog. Light,"weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect; equally objectionable are cloddy lumbering specimens.
    Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition, well-muscled and without excess fat.

    I am not suggesting that labs can ONLY be muscled by being trained for the field. I am making NO point about field work at all. I just don't know how a judge can examine a dog for "well-muscled" without looking/feeling for muscle. Road the dog. Swim the dog. Put the dog on a tread mill. Whatever.

    Just as the trend is apparently righting itself away from chubby labs (per the OP) so, perhaps one day, the judges will look for muscle.

    Look at the black lab on the LRC website. Presumably a good coat. You can see the definition of muscle in his rear end.

    Last edited by TuMicks; 11-27-2015 at 05:23 PM.

 



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