bye

You should've included reading the breed standard in your homework as that's covered in "color" ;)

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Breed%20Standard

what seems like a large white patch will get smaller as they get older and usually won't even be noticable..try and make sure everyone has the puppies spayed and neutered thats the most important thing ,there are too many Labs now and not enough good homes

bye

Oh my goodness they are SO CUTE!!!!! Please post photos as they get older and open eyes and look even cuter and cuter every day! Momma is a beauty, too. The white spot doesn't matter and it does not mean they are not full Lab. It is common to see a small white spot on some Lab puppies in my experience.

Enjoy them... they are so so cute!

PS I won't have an attitude, they are cute as can be.

If you do get into the breeding further, I WOULD suggest you have your adults' hips X rayed. Even if they look fine on the outside, they could have a slight hip malformation, and pups could have it worse. It's a good idea to test for all the genetic conditions just to be safe. And I don't say that to be rude at all. It's just what I have learned studying the Labrador breed over the years.

More pics!!!! :)

Please please please hook yourself up with a professional breeder as you call it. Go to a dog show, find a lab breeder and ask advice. Find out about hip and elbow dysplasia and all the other testing that needs to be done. You call it simple so I guess that means this breeding has gone well, but please remember all the things that can go wrong. And as for ensuring spaying and neutering... please take a stroll down the aisles of your local dog pounds. There are more labs out there than anyone can handle. There is more to breeding than two pretty labs and they money you could make off them. Please do more research and definitly get together with a good lab breeder for advice.

I have read alot of these fourms and it seems alot of people want to attack the non-pro breeders I can understand the competitiveness, heck do a search on buy lab and the net is flooded. Most people dont want mutts its either a status quo thing or ? but with a pure breed I have found I have people standing in line for a choc. lab or yellow lab. blacks are the dominate gene pool. and way more common glad we had none.

Dom, actually, that has nothing to do with someone asking you to do your research. Labs are a dime a dozen and unfortunately, when well meaning people like yourself perpetuate "just a dog" by allowing them to reproduce without proper clearances, it does nothing for our beloved breed. There are far too many nice dogs dying in shelters to turn a cheek at people who breed to get a third.

But to answer you about the color, if you would have color tested your dogs, you would have found out which of your dogs carries for yellow, and you would have found out that you may have had blacks. The color genes of the parents dictate the color.

Here is a link that would explain the coat color inheritance in labradors:

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

It's highly unlikely that the white will go away in your puppies. My chocolate boy has always had a white spot on his front chest. He's now 5.

Glad the puppies are healthy; however, I would hope that you would reconsider sending out the puppies on spay and neuter contracts.

Thanks for the color info I see it is allowed for show and akc registration but that I am not worried about I still can not find info on what causes it.

A gene causes it. I'm not sure the mode of inheritance is known, but clearly one or both of your dogs carry this gene.

As for making sure the new owners get the dogs fixed is not my decission to make that will be upto the new owners most are my fishing buddies from over the years and family.

You brought these puppies into the world and it absolutely IS your decision whether or not you send them out on spay neuter contracts.

I read you can breed dad with daughter (not mom with son) I have 5 excellent girls they are perfect.

You don't understand how you got white on chests and you're thinking about breeding father to daughter??? I can pretty much garauntee you'll be seeing a lot more white chests.

I did post on CL looking for someone to breed my stud with and for 2 years everytime I put it up it would get flagged

There are plenty of beautiful labrador studs out there who have been proven in the show ring and field (with titles) as well as have the proper health clearances...you're really suprised that no one jumped at the opportunity to breed to your unregistered dog with no health clearances and no proof that it can add anything to the breed??

I'm sorry if you find this harsh, but you have a LOT more research to do before anyone who cares about this breed will take you seriously and you should NOT be breeding these two dogs. What do you plan on saying if one or more of your good buddies come complaining that their puppy has hip or elbow dysplasia? Or goes blind at a young age from PRA? Starts having seizures? EIC? TVD? CMN? These things can be avoided if you do the proper clearances AND have a clue about what lies behind your dogs.

Please spay and neuter your dogs.

Hey all, we could go on and on about this "lack of research" but the deed is done the pups are born and they all have homes.

Dom, if you want a step by step for future reference regarding what is proper and acceptable regarding breeding including all the necessary clearances (and why they are important) just drop me a PM.

Regarding the white patch, it's common, don't need to worry about trying to research about WHY that happens. It just does. It doesn't mean the labs aren't purebred, it doesn't mean anything. It just happens. The spot won't go away. It will most likely remain the same size and as the pup grows, it will appear smaller. Two of the pups in my recently litter had a tiny line of white on their chest, just like Grace had as a pup. It was like 20 hairs then and looked huge, but on her full grown, it's barely noticable. She also passed on the bolo pads to a number of her pups (white hair in the front pads and on the back of the wrists).

Regarding your yellow pup (it will have the liver pigmentation, not the proper black that a yellow should have), it only happens when both chocolate parents carry the yellow gene. It's not a color trait that reputable breeders breed for.

bye

Sorry for the rant I just think the "Should have done more research" was a dig I did everything to insure my pups would be healthy and have good homes before I bred but instead of a good job I get the sarcastic tude


Did you do everything to insure that your pups would be healthy? Did you have both dogs hips and elbows x-rayed? Did you get a CERF eye exam on both parents? How about a heart exam? If you didn't do these things then you can't insure that your pups will be healthy even though they look cute now. What if a year or two down the road all your friends start calling you up (devastated and heartbroken) and tell you that their pups have hip dysplasia? What if they need an operation that cost thousands of dollars or they will be crippled? What if some of them go blind in the prime of their life? What are you going to do?

Since the OP doesn't have papers on his dogs then the people that he sells them to won't have papers on their dogs and having a spay/neuter contract won't do any good unless the OP threatens to take the dogs back and that will never happen. Usually withholding registration papers is what keeps people from breeding as a non-papered dog can't sell for the price of a registered one.

Why don't you have papers on your dogs? How do you know they are pure bred?

If you had x-rays done they why don't you have them sent to OFA and have them certified?

Worming...there are different protocols. Some do it every 2 weeks starting at 2 weeks of age until the pups go home. I did it 2x at 4 and 6 weeks, and then the owners do the final worming as recommended by their vets. I used something called Nemex-2 (pyrantel pamoate) which you can normally get at an animal supply store (not pet store) or online. I wormed my keepers a 3rd time today. I wouldn't use what you get at Wal-Mart unless it's just a different brand of pyrantel pamoate.

Shots...there is more information out there now that states that the shot that was normally given at 6 weeks isn't really effective, so many are doing a course of 3 shots, starting a bit later. We did the first shot at 7 weeks (a 5 way) and then the buyers were instructed to check with their vets on the next ones. It's usually 3-4 weeks apart. I'll do my keepers at 10 weeks, then 13, and cap it off by having the vet do rabies at 16 weeks.

Food...you want a decent quality food 26-28% protein for puppies. If you can get Canidae, which is all life stages, that's a good one to put them on and they can stay on it for life. Stay away from the grocery store brands of food, they really aren't that good. I started weaning mine at 3 weeks with mush made of kibble, goats milk, yogurt and baby cereal. They were on straight mushy kibble by 6 weeks.

Please read the stickies in this section concerning breeding. You should do some reading in the health section too and see how heartbreaking, devastating, expensive and common these problems can be. Some problems can crop up even though you have done the best you can to avoid them. Having an x-ray done on one of your dogs isn't all there is to it. You need to check the bloodlines behind the dogs that you intend to breed. Besides health issues there are behavioral issues that prompt many people to turn their pets into a shelter and breeders breed for disposition too.

I understand that you are trying to learn as you go but this process could result in many dogs with serious problems before you understand a way to lessen them. Finding a knowledgeable lab breeder to mentor you will be a good start.

I'm hoping that these pups grow up to be healthy and that you learn more before you attempt another breeding.

Good Luck and welcome to the forum.

A vet giving a dog a clean bill of health in no way constitutes healthy breeding stock.

Please understand why we are saying this about hip, elbow, eye and heart clearances.

Have you ever had a dysplastic dog, a blind dog, a TVD dog? It is heart breaking and something every reputable breeder strives to avoid by doing all health clearances on their breeding stock.

Please do not consider breeding your stud to his daughter. I don't know where you got the info not to breed mother to son but its okay to breed father to daughter. This is simply not true.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to become a breeder of any breed of dog. However, you must find a mentor, educate yourself extensively and do all clearances for that particular breed in order to be doing it properly for the wellfare of the breed, the pups you produce and are responsible for, and for the buyers of your pups.

As for coat color DNA. It is only $85. per dog.

I hope you will consider asking the new owners to spay and neuter.

As to vaccinations and feeding - you should have researched this prior (sorry there are those words again). Some give first shots at 6 weeks and than 4 more series 3-4 weeks apart. I give first at 8 weeks and 2 more series 4 weeks apart. 4 weeks after that I give rabies.

Here is a link with a lot of info on whelping/vaccinating/worming,etc. and may include info on feeding as well. I start feeding gruel around 3 to 3 1/2 weeks. It all depends on the bitch and the pups and the size of the litter.

http://www.debbiejensen.com/

Please take the time to learn and find a mentor before continuing breeding. And get your dogs hips and elbows OFA'd, eyes Optigened/Cerfed. Not to mention heart clearances by a canine cardiologist.

I pray your pups live long and healthy lives - because you took a real gamble here with their health and long term outcome.

bye

You might "mean no harm" but you're not doing anything right either. If you had any clue, you'd realize that those of us breeding responsibly are nowhere near "making a killing". Feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss the costs I have into my current breeding...

I really hope this section gets closed down soon because these are the types of threads/bybs that it's going to attract.

Nicole, whether this guy (or those like him) write in this section or the Fire Hydrant, the post will still show up on the board. Just because we get rid of the "Breeder" section doens't mean they won't be on here....

Obviously this guy doesn't want to learn why we are saying vets don't do health clearances on labs, and obviously he's not doing all the necessary things, because if he thinks he's making a killing selling the pups at $350 a pop something isn't getting done along the line.

Heck, just the comment about saying pups are cheap because the mom feeds them atests to how little he really knows. I spent a load of money just making sure my babies were fed properly. I spent ALOT of money making sure Grace ate well before and after the whelping, and when she was having a hard time feeding 11 on her own, I started supplementing. I think I spent over $100 just on goats milk alone.

I think all we can do is try to shed light on what's being done wrong, and hopefully someone who WANTS to learn to breed labs the RIGHT way will read this and learn from our posts.

Dom, we answered your questions, but please understand you still have alot to learn if you do another litter. Please do not inbreed your next litter because you are running the risk of seriously passing on any hereditary issues you are unaware of because you aren't doing the clearances properly. Inbreeding magnifies serious faults....

bye

WOW! Besides breeding your pet labs with no papers or clearances you are also breeding pet labs with bad temperaments. :(

bye

inbreeding of itself is not nessacarily a bad thing but since you don;t have papers ,the dogs you have already may be result of inbreeding or closely related so it may be a really bad idea

inbreeding of itself is not nessacarily a bad thing

:eek:

inbreeding of itself is not nessacarily a bad thing

Do you breed?

people have been inbreeding dogs for years a lot of the stimga associated with it comes from a moral perspective of humans ,it occurs in the wild all the time there are countless articles written on it and there are pros and cons as with an outcross breeding http://www.welshcorgi.com/lists/archive15.html http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/demyst.html

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html Phyliss Giroux had a beautuful inbred father/daughter Lab he had all the clearences and was titled shes a repro Vet and a Trainer

Most of the articles you referenced are actually talking about line breeding, when the sire & dam share ancestors but they are not brother to sister, father to daughter, or mother to son.

If the litter of English Setters I'm hoping for is conceived this week and whelped in July I may be doing a tight line breeding of my boy Logan to a niece from said litter. Uncle to niece is about as close as I'll breed.

As for the registration "PAPERS" lets be honest I live in California the most exspensive state there is to live in in the good ol USA (Originally from Grand Prairrie,Tx) The lab pups out here run 600.00-1000.00 bucks for a dog with papers. I am a thinking man and did alot of research and searching before I got "Chipper Dog" and what I found was nothing is for certain the percentage of labs sold by professional breeders only to later develope problems later in life was above 33%. The kicker was most dont warranty the dog for life and all the fine print, etc....

See, I was thinking maybe this was going to be an innocent thread until this part of your post. Well bred labs ARE more expensive, that is true. Now, let me tell you why they are. A properly bred lab from a reputable, and RESPONSIBLE breeder is an expensive endeavor. Paying for clearances (hips, eyes, cardiac, elbows, optigen) is a hunk of money. Training your dog, titling and expenses traveling to and from shows is a hunk of money. Paying a stud fee for the best matched dog for your girl (and not just one you have in the house) is a lot of money. Paying for progesterone testing, pregnancy care of the bitch and the proper whelping equipment is expensive. You were lucky. Your girl seemed to have an easy whelp, but what would you have done if she would have gone into distress and needed a c-section? Finally, microchipping, vaccinations, a healthy vet check and worming is expensive. After you add all of that up and divide that by how many pups in a litter, no reputable or responsible breeder ever makes any money.

And you have a wrong idea about labs. They are NOT protection dogs. You have an aggressive lab, sir, and that is a trait that should NOT be perpetuated through breeding.

So, I am sorry you feel attacked, but it's been clearly shown that you didn't do any homework and it's unfortunate that there are new innocents that have been brought into the world that probably shouldn't have in the first place. good luck though.

We are to educate- one attracts more flies with honey...

Let us embrace these new beautiful puppies that are here, and welcome them to the world and the forum.

Let us befriend our new Lab forum member, and let us share our views and knowledge. Who knows where it can lead?

:)

And another thing if the breeders would drop the price and quit being so greedy I understand what it cost but if I was to sell my pups for 350.00 apiece I would still make a killing.

It kind of sounds like the oil companies saying no dont buy gas anywhere else but from us but on the other hand they want to gouge us on the price. People are going to cut corners plain and simple. But then again this is all my crazy thinking and just my opinion. 11 days old and she is perfect If I do decide to breed again in a the next couple of years for profit it will be with my stud chipper and her after the investment of checking her all out.

:eek::eek::eek: I am speechless. And confused....Is he comparing his breeding and bringing living, breathing beings into this world with selling oil??

And breeding sister and father??? I'm no breeding expert by any stretch, but I can't see that being a good thing.........Especially considering you do not know the lineage of your current dogs.

PLEASE, sell your current litter of puppies with a spay/neuter contract. You are responsible for their lives and any lives they create by failing to do so.

Good luck with your pups--They are beautiful!

Hey Dom .... I also live in CA and many, many counties and cities within CA require mandatory spay and neuter for all dogs and cats at 4 months of age.

If you or your buyers live in areas where this is the case, you will need to disclose this to your buyers as they will not be able to keep their puppies intact (unaltered) after they reach 4 months old. It is the law. Los Angeles County requires that you notify with Dept of Animal Services with the names and addresses of your puppy buyers. (Buyers meaning whoever adopts your puppies whether or not they actually pay for them.) Since the L.A. Co ordinance is the model most other cities and counties have followed, you will need to familiarize yourself with your local animal control laws with regards to this litter. Violations are not taken lightly. Non-altered licenses require an application process and approval for you to be allowed to keep your dogs intact. You must agree to a Breeders Code of Ethics (which your current litter would fail), belong to an approved breed club, and exhibit your dog in approved registry show at least once per year. Breeding or keeping our pets intact is no longer left up to us as their owners. Breeding is now restricted to people who will produce litters to improve the breed through proper health screening and who have a long term goal in mind for their dogs.

*IF* you live in any of these mandatory spay and neuter jurisdictions, you have already violated the law by breeding dogs that do not have approved registry status. Merely the fact that your dogs do not have AKC registration is a violation.

And if you live in an area where you are not affected by these laws, I guess you escaped it this time. Just wait, if the law isn't in your city/town/county yet, it will be soon. It's the wave of the future.

...11 days old and she is perfect


You don't know that! If you want to keep the best pup in this litter then you should try to find a breeder that can evaluate them at 8 weeks old. This is something that breeders shouldn't do for themselves. If you can't do that then get a copy of Pat Hastings DVD called Puppy Puzzle (http://www.amazon.com/Puppy-Puzzle/dp/B00004XP7T) to help you in your decision. If anything this DVD will help you understand what is involved in picking a puppy.

Darwin'smom

You are right I dont know everything all I know is what I have read and i have read so much over the years that most of the time I get confused if my Vet charged for phone time I would have made her rich by now LOL

I think you mean well and I think we both want the same thing and thats not to have defective dogs or dogs with no loving home. I am not perfect but so far I have made no mistakes the health is cleared and all doing well. As for the registration "PAPERS" lets be honest I live in California the most exspensive state there is to live in in the good ol USA (Originally from Grand Prairrie,Tx) The lab pups out here run 600.00-1000.00 bucks for a dog with papers. I am a thinking man and did alot of research and searching before I got "Chipper Dog" and what I found was nothing is for certain the percentage of labs sold by professional breeders only to later develope problems later in life was above 33%. The kicker was most dont warranty the dog for life and all the fine print, etc....

Now your argument is going to be thats becuase of people NOT doing the test,etc... before they breed and I give you that but the point is why drop a 1000.00 on a dog with the percentage of bad dogs out there. I think if you take that 1000.00 and invest in a free pure breed like I did shots,test,etc... you would be better off
Alot of times people dont think about a dog as a family member if somthing happens and they have to make that trip to the vet they are amazed at the cost of health care for a dog and therefore the dogs health goes down hill becuase they dont have or wont spend the money to have a healthy dog.

And another thing if the breeders would drop the price and quit being so greedy I understand what it cost but if I was to sell my pups for 350.00 apiece I would still make a killing. (Not doing that just an example) the money is invested into the mom and dad over time who is a part of your family anyways the pups are cheap I am having all my puppies shots done for 150.00 bucks the mom feeds em for weeks and they are gone at 8 weeks old.

It kind of sounds like the oil companies saying no dont buy gas anywhere else but from us but on the other hand they want to gouge us on the price. People are going to cut corners plain and simple. But then again this is all my crazy thinking and just my opinion.

I apprecieate and understand your concern but please know I mean no harm and feel I have taken every percaussion, as for my buddy coming back to me well thats why I am giving em away and not selling them and even with a clean bill of health from my vet I am alittle worried about that but I can not control what God lays out.

Chelsea is getting fixed as soon as my vet says its a good time(she just had pups) I am giving away 7 of the eight and already got my eye on this cute chubby girl

11 days old and she is perfect If I do decide to breed again in a the next couple of years for profit it will be with my stud chipper and her after the investment of checking her all out.

So all is well you have a great day and again thanks for the advice.

Dom

Dom, this is the most naive posts I have ever read. It's people like you and your lack of ethics that give the PETA people all the ammunition they need to go to Sacremento and insist on a STATE LAW that will make what you are doing a crime. Of course, this same law will be an umbrella law and affect ethical and reputable breeders in California as well.

One bad seed... and all that.

OMG, for those of us who have crippled dogs at home who seemed to be "perfect" puppies (but whose parents weren't properly certified- x-rayed AND sent to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals in order to get passing results for hips AND elbows), I can only sigh and shake my head at what the thought process is here.

A vet looking at x-rays is NOT ENOUGH...the x-rays have to be read by radiologists certified by OFA, and if they don't pass, those dogs should never be bred as they would be doing the breed a disservice by continuing to produce puppies that eventually end up crippled.

Orthopedic diseases not only cripple these dogs that we love so much, putting them in unnecessary lifelong pain and discomfort, but they also cripple the checkbooks of puppy buyers (who, like me, may have to spend thousands of $$$ on surgeries on their puppy in order to hopefully help his/her quality of life). :( It is a good thing you aren't charging for your puppies...those puppy owners need to save their money for things that could very well happen (based on lack of knowledge of internal health of the parents) in the future.

Not to mention tearing out your heart when you have to put a dog to sleep at only 6 years of age because s/he can no longer get up and has poor quality of life because of hip dysplasia.

I know what's done is done, but obviously the research hasn't been done or all of this would have been determined prior to breeding. The *minimums* to do in order to prevent entire litters of crippled or blind puppies down the road (obviously you wouldn't see the results for months to even years) are OFA hips and elbows, and CERF exams annually. Heart testing and Optigen testing (to eval for another gene that can cause blindness, usually around age 4-8) are secondary.

Father-to-daughter breedings can also bring all health problems that these dogs could be carrying in their genes, from epilepsy to elbow dysplasia, to the surface in the puppies they produce. NOT a good idea in this case- an idea that should only be pursued by people who have fantastic understanding of the genetics/pedigrees behind their dogs...doubling up on underlying diseases that you *may* not see could be absolutely devastating. You need to know about the families here...what if you have one puppy out of a litter who is fine, but every other littermate had severe hip dysplasia before the age of 2? That "fine" puppy would likely be a big-time producer of hip dysplasia in his/her puppies just because of his/her genetic predisposition to this.

I think instead of "professional breeder" (which may be used to describe a puppy mill, since their "profession" is to breed), you're instead referring to a "reputable breeder" (one who produces puppies for a specific reason, usually to keep one themselves while improving on the lines, who does all of the necessary health tests on their breeding stock, and who will take puppies back for 15 years if need be, if the owners cannot keep them for some reason...including if their health costs because of life-long anti-seizure medications, etc. become too great).

I'm sorry if any of these posts come across as harsh, but too many of us have dogs with serious diseases who are results of improper health clearances and careless breedings between two dogs in the same household. Most of us have been burned bigtime by this situation. Just look at the health section sometime...lots of "...was diagnosed with hip dysplasia!" threads. :(

Breeding horses and the health clearances required for breeding horses is all much, much easier. ;) Well, except for HyPP or "Impressive Disease" in quarter horses (my breed of choice- I grew up breeding/competing with my QH's) or neonatal isoerythrolysis that can be a problem with various arabian, etc. breedings.

bye

Bless the beasts and the children for they have no voice...they have no choice.

How utterly disheartening.

More legal mumbo jumbo for you Dom ... check it out. You are now a 'pet dealer' according to CALIFORNIA CODES HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION 122125-122220. That means the puppies you place will be covered by the so called "Puppy Lemon Law" and I quote, "(ii) The dog has no known congenital or hereditary condition that adversely affects the health of the dog at the time of the sale or that is likely to adversely affect the health of the dog in the future." The dog meaning the puppy you place in a new home.

Time to familiarlize yourself with the details of this law and how long it will affect the lives of your puppies and what it means to you if one of your buyers decides to use this law against you. Oh, and by law, you must provide a copy of the code and sections to each and every buyer. Disclosure, disclosure, disclosure.

Good thing so many responses to this thread quoted the OP's "wisdom" within the reply because he went through and deleted all his posts. :confused:

Hey Dom .... I also live in CA and many, many counties and cities within CA require mandatory spay and neuter for all dogs and cats at 4 months of age.

If you or your buyers live in areas where this is the case, you will need to disclose this to your buyers as they will not be able to keep their puppies intact (unaltered) after they reach 4 months old. It is the law. Los Angeles County requires that you notify with Dept of Animal Services with the names and addresses of your puppy buyers. (Buyers meaning whoever adopts your puppies whether or not they actually pay for them.) Since the L.A. Co ordinance is the model most other cities and counties have followed, you will need to familiarize yourself with your local animal control laws with regards to this litter. Violations are not taken lightly. Non-altered licenses require an application process and approval for you to be allowed to keep your dogs intact. You must agree to a Breeders Code of Ethics (which your current litter would fail), belong to an approved breed club, and exhibit your dog in approved registry show at least once per year. Breeding or keeping our pets intact is no longer left up to us as their owners. Breeding is now restricted to people who will produce litters to improve the breed through proper health screening and who have a long term goal in mind for their dogs.

*IF* you live in any of these mandatory spay and neuter jurisdictions, you have already violated the law by breeding dogs that do not have approved registry status. Merely the fact that your dogs do not have AKC registration is a violation.

And if you live in an area where you are not affected by these laws, I guess you escaped it this time. Just wait, if the law isn't in your city/town/county yet, it will be soon. It's the wave of the future.

Good information, I don't live in CA and didn't know this. Welcome to the board! :thumb4:

Hey Dom .... I also live in CA and many, many counties and cities within CA require mandatory spay and neuter for all dogs and cats at 4 months of age.

If you or your buyers live in areas where this is the case, you will need to disclose this to your buyers as they will not be able to keep their puppies intact (unaltered) after they reach 4 months old. It is the law. Los Angeles County requires that you notify with Dept of Animal Services with the names and addresses of your puppy buyers. (Buyers meaning whoever adopts your puppies whether or not they actually pay for them.) Since the L.A. Co ordinance is the model most other cities and counties have followed, you will need to familiarize yourself with your local animal control laws with regards to this litter. Violations are not taken lightly. Non-altered licenses require an application process and approval for you to be allowed to keep your dogs intact. You must agree to a Breeders Code of Ethics (which your current litter would fail), belong to an approved breed club, and exhibit your dog in approved registry show at least once per year. Breeding or keeping our pets intact is no longer left up to us as their owners. Breeding is now restricted to people who will produce litters to improve the breed through proper health screening and who have a long term goal in mind for their dogs.

*IF* you live in any of these mandatory spay and neuter jurisdictions, you have already violated the law by breeding dogs that do not have approved registry status. Merely the fact that your dogs do not have AKC registration is a violation.

And if you live in an area where you are not affected by these laws, I guess you escaped it this time. Just wait, if the law isn't in your city/town/county yet, it will be soon. It's the wave of the future.

This is great! Why aren't other states doing this :confused:

Good thing so many responses to this thread quoted the OP's "wisdom" within the reply because he went through and deleted all his posts. :confused:
Something tells me Dom continues to visit this thread even after deleting his posts. I certainly hope so. There is much to learn and it is obvious he needs guidance. Of course, that would mean he'd have to bring an open mind to the table and be willing to learn the lessons. Admitting he has made a huge mistake allowing this litter to happen would be a good place to start. Doing right by the puppies and enforcing a spay/neuter contract on each one would be another act of good faith on his part. Dom, the ball is in your court.

cute
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u257/Domb1972/LabPups10daysold002.jpg

We Thank you

You know you are all right I did this all wrong guess I should just uthinize all the pups and be done with it dont want to get in any legal trouble I will call my vet today to have all 8 put down. Thanks, yall single handedly killed 8 pups hope yall are happy with yourselfs and guess what its legal and nothing you can do about it.

I asked for help and I get all this heck the way yall are talking the pups are better off dead. I will post proof from my vet (bill) of the uthinizations soon as the deed is done
will make an appointment today.

Thanks

Grow up. No one said to do that. They merely asked you have the pups under a spay/neuter contract. Holy drama queen batman.

Here is a very good article from Kelrobin Labradors (formerly Woodhaven) regarding pricing of labs.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/paying.html

You know you are all right I did this all wrong guess I should just uthinize all the pups and be done with it dont want to get in any legal trouble I will call my vet today to have all 8 put down. Thanks, yall single handedly killed 8 pups hope yall are happy with yourselfs and guess what its legal and nothing you can do about it.

I asked for help and I get all this heck the way yall are talking the pups are better off dead. I will post proof from my vet (bill) of the uthinizations soon as the deed is done
will make an appointment today.

Thanks

Get your head out the sand and act like a man. Raise those pups with love, choose their homes carefully and ENSURE each one of them is spayed or neutered.

You know you are all right I did this all wrong guess I should just uthinize all the pups and be done with it dont want to get in any legal trouble I will call my vet today to have all 8 put down. Thanks, yall single handedly killed 8 pups hope yall are happy with yourselfs and guess what its legal and nothing you can do about it.

I asked for help and I get all this heck the way yall are talking the pups are better off dead. I will post proof from my vet (bill) of the uthinizations soon as the deed is done
will make an appointment today.

Thanks


My, aren't you a pleasant fellow!

You know you are all right I did this all wrong guess I should just uthinize all the pups and be done with it dont want to get in any legal trouble I will call my vet today to have all 8 put down. Thanks, yall single handedly killed 8 pups hope yall are happy with yourselfs and guess what its legal and nothing you can do about it.

I asked for help and I get all this heck the way yall are talking the pups are better off dead. I will post proof from my vet (bill) of the uthinizations soon as the deed is done
will make an appointment today.

Thanks

You are being way too sensitive - no one suggested you should euthanize the pups. Coming from someone who had to euthanize a dog yesterday, I am offended you think this is a solution :mad:. I would do just about anything to have her back!!

You asked for help and you were given it. If you had left your sarcastic comments out, I know you would have better responses.

It may not be a crime for you to euthanize the puppies, but do you have a conscience? You brought these babies in to the world and should feel obligated to find them homes. That is how I would handle things and I hope you make the right decision.

Who said anything about them being better off dead? I think they're adorable... and said so.

If you had left your sarcastic comments out, I know you would have better responses.



I agree, it's all in the attitude and it appears that you have a closed mind and we are talking to a wall. It's your responses that made people want to try different ways make you understand for the sake of any future puppies.

Dom, we all know you are not going to euthanize. Sarcasm just doesn't work well on this board - particularly in this thread.

I hope you have taken all comments - suggestions/education - and will act on them. Whether you will admit it to us or not.

There is nothing wrong with "giving away" your pups and still having new owners sign a spay/neuter contract. How about also putting into your contract that they are not allowed to re home pups at any time without contacting you first so you can find the right home or take the pup back. They will respect you for this - even without having done this breeding the proper way.

That was childish I admit just my anger coming out I would never hurt these pups or anything for that matter and I dont have a closed mind I have opinions and that was stated. You are right I am no expert I am a newbie to all this I did not think of henherited genes kind of thought GOD delt with that.

Both my dogs are in great health accoring to my vet no we did not do the clearence heck I did not even know about it and this should prove I had this litter for pick of the litter I did not ever intend on selling them.

I choose close friends and family to give the pups to who have know me iether all my life (family) or over 10 years (friends) I have fished with these friends for years every week I use to fish the Bass Tour here in Ca Chased that game for years. So if somthing does go wrong all the owners know the deal and accept it not one of them is going to sue me I know this for a fact.

So on a mature level I messed up I adm it that this litter is taken care of

but I would like to get the cleance on my dogs any way can yall point me in the right direction how do I do this, where do I go? Cost? whats involved ? again need more pos info keep the neg replies I really try to live a drama free life and hate drama.

I apoligize for offending anyone and for the mistake of not getting clearnce on my Dogs again I knew nothing about it I was more concerned with the well being of my bitch and her pups before,during and after birth that what i concentrated on thought I had all my bases coveredI am not new to the internet or fourms I am very well known in the bass cyber world thought I would come on here and get GET JOB you took all the steps to insure the pups will be healthy and go to good homes I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE CLEARENCE I am not a breeder as a matter afact this is the first litter in my whole life my wife, kids and myself were so amazed and happy everything went great all pups survived, But I did not look down the road "MY BAD"

Again I apoligize for loosing my cool I am a pretty laid back guy yall just made me feel stupid and now I will admit that becuase I know little about all this. But just like Bass fishing tournaments I was a rookie at one time before I gain the knowledge to go PRO

So help me become a PRO in this area.

Spayed/nuetured contracts I will do HOW? Is there a ca forum? website?

I need answers yall not critism

thanks Dom



And all I keep hearing is about a spyed/nuetered contract would someone like to explain how I go about this whats involved,etc... Damn people I asked for help giving me some pos info is more productive then lashing out at someone for a mistake and the only mistake I will admit to is not getting the clearance on my sire and dam and trufluly I did not know about it my dogs get checked out by my vet I told her my intentions and she never offered the info either not a matter of cash flow I got that it was just the lack of education.

and again I did do research on dog pregnacy,whelping, and the aftermath becuase I did not want anything bad to happen AGAIN NO I DID NOT READ BREEDING FOR AKC I AM NOT SELLING EM never planned on so why would I worrie about hip elbow becuase it never cross my mind.

No need for you to feel stupid, just ask your questions without sarcasm and I guarantee you will get helpful responses. This board is full of very intelligent people with alot of experience.

That was childish I admit just my anger coming out I would never hurt these pups or anything for that matter and I dont have a closed mind I have opinions and that was stated. You are right I am no expert I am a newbie to all this I did not think of henherited genes kind of thought GOD delt with that.

Both my dogs are in great health accoring to my vet no we did not do the clearence heck I did not even know about it and this should prove I had this litter for pick of the litter I did not ever intend on selling them.

I choose close friends and family to give the pups to who have know me iether all my life (family) or over 10 years (friends) I have fished with these friends for years every week I use to fish the Bass Tour here in Ca Chased that game for years. So if somthing does go wrong all the owners know the deal and accept it not one of them is going to sue me I know this for a fact.

So on a mature level I messed up I adm it that this litter is taken care of

but I would like to get the cleance on my dogs any way can yall point me in the right direction how do I do this, where do I go? Cost? whats involved ? again need more pos info keep the neg replies I really try to live a drama free life and hate drama.

I apoligize for offending anyone and for the mistake of not getting clearnce on my Dogs again I knew nothing about it I was more concerned with the well being of my bitch and her pups before,during and after birth that what i concentrated on thought I had all my bases coveredI am not new to the internet or fourms I am very well known in the bass cyber world thought I would come on here and get GET JOB you took all the steps to insure the pups will be healthy and go to good homes I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE CLEARENCE I am not a breeder as a matter afact this is the first litter in my whole life my wife, kids and myself were so amazed and happy everything went great all pups survived, But I did not look down the road "MY BAD"

Again I apoligize for loosing my cool I am a pretty laid back guy yall just made me feel stupid and now I will admit that becuase I know little about all this. But just like Bass fishing tournaments I was a rookie at one time before I gain the knowledge to go PRO

So help me become a PRO in this area.

Spayed/nuetured contracts I will do HOW? Is there a ca forum? website?

I need answers yall not critism

thanks Dom



And all I keep hearing is about a spyed/nuetered contract would someone like to explain how I go about this whats involved,etc... Damn people I asked for help giving me some pos info is more productive then lashing out at someone for a mistake and the only mistake I will admit to is not getting the clearance on my sire and dam and trufluly I did not know about it my dogs get checked out by my vet I told her my intentions and she never offered the info either not a matter of cash flow I got that it was just the lack of education.

and again I did do research on dog pregnacy,whelping, and the aftermath becuase I did not want anything bad to happen AGAIN NO I DID NOT READ BREEDING FOR AKC I AM NOT SELLING EM never planned on so why would I worrie about hip elbow becuase it never cross my mind.

Welcome back, Dom. I admire and applaud your response. There was no question in my mind that you have your pups and their mom's best interest at heart. You are right. It is the long term that can come back to haunt you.

If you want to find out the orthopaedic health of the mother and father, you will need to have them x-rayed by a vet who knows how to position for OFA. Guidelines can be found here: www.offa.org (http://www.offa.org) You will need hip and elbow films submitted to OFA for both dogs. The films will be read (if your dogs are over two years of age) by three radiologists who will rate the health of their joints.

You should also have your dog's eyes examined by an ACVO. Information on finding a qualified canine opthamologist can be found here: http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html

Do I think your dogs should be bred again? No, I don't, even if they pass the above tests with flying colors. It is a disservice to breed without being able to prove (with AKC papers) that the resulting puppies are purebred. In fact, your keeper puppy and her parents should be spayed/neutered as well. Harsh yes, but a reality you have to face IF you really want to become a respected and reputable breeder.

I just googled "example of spay and neuter contracts" and got hundreds of hits. Find one that works best for you and apply that contract to each puppy's new home.

No one was out to make you feel stupid. Knowledge is power, but I guess you got a bit more than you bargained for.

Now fast forward ... you really want to play the game. Go to dog shows, read the AKC standard, join a Labrador Retriever breed club and become active in it, go to a hunt test, network with breeders and exhibitors/competitors in your area. With any luck since you really do seem to be a likeble guy, you will find a mentor to help you build a breeding program. Not from the stock you have now, no. You will have to vastly improve there, but in the meantime, do your homework so that you can be better informed and better connected to help you work towards that goal.

Thank you for your candor and apologies.

Find a Labrador club in your area - they often have health clinics where you can get your clearances at a discount. Other breed clubs do this as well - some are all breed clinics.

Go to http://www.infodog.com/showinfo/matches.htm to search for clinics in your area.

Optigen is a blood draw to prevent PRA (blindness) Around here it runs $25. for the draw at a clinic and you pay Optigen around $145 for the results. You have to go to www.optigen.com (http://www.optigen.com) to order the test. You print out the form from their site and take it with you to the clinic. Or if your vet does blood draw take it to the vet. At least one dog in any breeding must be Optigen A.

Eye Cerf must be done by a board certified canine ophthalmologist and runs around $80 here.

Hips and elbows can often be done at clinics as well. I pay around $125 - $150. for both x-rays. Sending into OFA for certs is $35. $40 if you want your x-rays returned to you. If you go to a vet rather than a clinic you must find a vet that is seasoned in positioning the dog properly for the x-rays. I doubt your vet would be since they did not even inform you of health clearances.

Heart must be done by a board certified canine cardiologist and runs around $300-$400. here. They also have this at some clinics for a discount. You want to be sure and get ausculation(sp) and echo. (called heart/doppler)

Hips/elbows - dog must be 2 years of age - one time test
Cerf should be done every year.
Optigen - one time test at any age
Heart - one time test - dog must be 1 year of age

Good luck.

You are even welcomed to email me and I'll send you a copy of the Puppy Sales Agreement I used that makes people sign stating they'll spay/neuter they pet.

All of our puppies are sold on non-breeding agreements and the forms come from the CKC and can be found here http://www.ckc.ca/aspweb/http/forms/pdf/101-05-05.pdf

Not sure if the AKC has simular forms or not :confused:

Jen or Patty could answer that for you.

If you look around the Optigen site (DNA for eyes) you can do the paperwork on-line for a discount and when I called them with some questions, they mailed me an additional discount coupon. My vet does blood draws for $5 and you bring in the paperwork, they mail the sample in. Some dog shows have clinics that offer discounts also (mentioned previously). This can be done at any age.

I had my girls CERF'd for eyes and hearts at a clinic put on by my training center, the cost was only $25 for each test! It's a yearly event for us. Eye CERF's can be done at any age and should be done yearly. Heart CERF's can be done after one year of age.

Since your loaded, lol, you may want to have a DNA color coat determination test. This isn't really necessary unless you are trying to avoid some colors (or liver colored noses). Prices around $65-$85. They send you a cheek swab and you send it back. This tells you what color genes your dog may carry. Did you know that it's possible for a chocolate to have black, yellow or chocolate pups (depending on the parents)? Here is a couple of places that do that:
http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html
http://vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html


Here is a coat color predictor chart that you might find interesting: http://www.vetdnacenter.com/files/coat-color-predictor.pdf

It sounds like you're on the right tract and getting some great information. Is your head exploding yet? It's a lot to sort out at first. Welcome back!

One more thing, are your dogs micro-chipped (for identification)? If not, you may want to have it done when your dogs are sedated for x-rays, that way they won't feel it. You don't need sedation for this but since your dogs are older and the needle is HUGE, this is a good option. You can have all your pups micro-chipped also.