I'm new here on the site. Just rescued a 2-3 year old yellow Lab and I am dealing with a few food issues, nothing too major, but in general I wanted some tips on diet.
My whole experience with Dogs has been to feed them the kibble that was cheapest or whatever the dog preferred. But two nights ago a good friend of mine came shopping with me to pick out a dog. He explained to me that almost all the dog food had a main ingredient of corn and how dogs cannot digest it properly. So we searched high and low and ended up finding a kirkland brand lamb and rice dog food with no corn or soy whatsoever.
Surprisingly, Bailey my new Lab, loves the food, even more than his purina one lamb and rice which has corn as one of the first three ingredients.
So is this true about the corn and it not being the right thing to feed dogs?
I also got treats that are corn free and no raw hides. I was also informed that raw hides damage the dogs teeth so I should stick with real bones and knuckles that have the tendons and marrow still present on and in the bones.
The problem I am having now is Bailey loves people food and the adoptive parents were giving him salad dressing and gravy on his kibble. Whenever I am cooking or eating with my fiance Bailey is sure to be right there and as attentive as can be to what we are eating. I don't feel comfortable leaving him out alone in the house because he is always sniffing the counter tops.
How do you break a dog of the people food habit? Is it just repetition over time, not allowing him to have any?
Thanks for your advice!

Your friend is right about the corn.
My lab Jewel has a corn allergy and lots of other allergies.

Thank you for rescuing a lab !!!!!!! & Congrats :D

The Pet Food Industry sprang up to handle waste product from the processing of human food ..Pay to ship it and dump it.. or make something from it..

So all we look at now is how fresher the "garbage "is... Any doubt check out the Animal Rendering TV episode of "Dirty Jobs"..only a small rendering company would allow filming...

Example : Salmon Meal... How is it made...?

At the Human grade canning plant all parts for human consumption get canned..The manufacturer is left with skin, bones , guts, heads... That is stored and picked up by a Rendering firm..The renderer grinds it all up into a bloody mess , boils it , removes the fats that float to the top, then sends it to dryers that make a "Protein Powder" called Salmon meal...That is sold to Pet Food manufacturers. That is very high quality..because it is a single source protein meal..made from fresh caught Salmon..

For all the other meals the same happens at the Beef Processing, Chicken etc..

If you see Fresh Chicken.. not a meal..Don't be fooled that they take a supermarket grade chicken and put it into your dogs food...What happens there is at places that sell Breast meat, cuts, the skeleton (carcase) of the chicken with Cartilage, ligament,gets sold with chickens that are bruised and not able to be sold for human consumption..The skeleton, meats , cartilage,is then processed as fresh meat into the dog food with its water content of 80%..In the end you have less meat from fresh cuts because the kibble is dried to around 10 % moisture.

The Giants in the industry like Purina, Iams,Pedigree, have huge contracts with the Giants of the Human Food Processing and in most cases own the Human side too..so they don't have to buy ingredients..

Getting to Corn... it is even cheaper to use as an animal feed after processing it into Corn gluten..but the dog gets it blood sugar spiked and the protein is not as well utilized as meat protein.. Corn is about price.. All cheap Dog food contains corn.. Even expensive Diets like Pro Plan add corn... only benefit is the profit line to the company.. So Purina ONE is actually a better buy...

In the last decade as the Public became more aware of the Pet Food Industry companies like Natura, Orijen brand, Wellness, Eagle Pack Brand, popped up to reach a market of consumers that would pay more for better kibble...

So if you see Corn in your dogs food, just think of it as the bottom level of dog food.. Your dog can eat it.. be happy, live a long life.... but not all dogs do... Some who don't have a strong constitution will suffer from bad coat, bad breath, hot spots, and allergies. Good food helps those dogs the most..

There is a lot of misinformation around about dog chow. Much of it comes from those marketing premium brands. Before all the stuff about dog chow was on the internet, I was very familiar with a large, highly successful, professionally managed program that fed corn based Purina for a long time before switching to Pro Plan which still contains some corn and other ''bad ingredients''. Once I started reading how bad Pro Plan was, I started looking around at other similar programs. They were all equally successful feeding other common brands mostly Iams, but science diet and purina 1.

I also took a skeptical, but open mind to the websites pushing the premium chows and alternative diets looking for proof of their claims. Did I find any studies backing them? What I found were distortions, half truths, outright lies, anecdotes, junk science, and emotional ranting a raving. The internet is dominated by it. One of the few places you will find much balanced, rational discussion is at http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/images/nutrition-off.jpg As near as i can tell, they aren't selling dog chow, just dogs. Most of my info comes from people that aren't selling anything, just giving away dogs they spent the price of a car raising and training.

You friend has been taken in by clever marketing. People love their dogs and there is good money to be made pushing people's buttons and selling them expensive chows. I don't know about the bottom end stuff, but the large, common brands have a fine history of producing healthy, long lived dogs.

well well. your friend is right. corn isnt necessary or good for dogs. it's a filler. crap, actually. kirkland is a decent chow-i use it myself. not the very best but very decent quality. and yes, chow does matter. depends who you listen to but read . read everything you can. read woodhavenlabs stuff and then google and read more.
there are dogs who do perfectly well on the cheapest crap out there. and then there are others who dont. i wouldnt eat garbage so i dont feed my dogs garbage.
most of my info, actually all of it, comes from having dogs for many many years. one very allergic dog, before i knew what i was doing and feeding. he suffered because of the garbage i fed him. i also had other dogs that could tolerate less than perfect food .
learn and read up. then make your own informed decision.

I think you have made a good choice in both food and friends! Your friend definitely gave you sound advice and your new dog will greatly benefit from it.

It might take awhile to break the begging habit, but if you never reward him for doing it, he will eventually become less interested. When I am cooking the dogs are not allowed in the kitchen and when we sit down to eat, I tell my dogs to go lay on their beds during mealtime. Establish a habit like this to help eliminate the begging. You may not get rid of it entirely since Labs are SO food motivated, but at least you'll get some peace while preparing meals and while eating them.

Now that we are on the subject of corn, can anyone explain the difference between "ground yellow corn" and "corn gluten meal" ? I have noticed that some diets do contain corn gluten meal instead of ground yellow corn. What is the difference when consumed by our pets? Is one worse than the other??

corn gluten meal is not as easily digestible and ground yellow corn is just that.
you dont need either.filler garbage.

On the Woodhaven site I mentioned, one page explains what each common ingredient is.

Now, can somebody explain how dogs do just fine on chow with large amounts of corn? It is true dogs don't digest it completely and the more of it in their chow the larger and softer the stools.

While is is quite easy to fine websites condeming its use, it is impossible to find any proof behind them.

well well. your friend is right. corn isnt necessary or good for dogs. it's a filler. crap, actually. kirkland is a decent chow-i use it myself. not the very best but very decent quality. and yes, chow does matter. depends who you listen to but read . read everything you can. read woodhavenlabs stuff and then google and read more.
there are dogs who do perfectly well on the cheapest crap out there. and then there are others who dont. i wouldnt eat garbage so i dont feed my dogs garbage.
most of my info, actually all of it, comes from having dogs for many many years. one very allergic dog, before i knew what i was doing and feeding. he suffered because of the garbage i fed him. i also had other dogs that could tolerate less than perfect food .
learn and read up. then make your own informed decision.

Couldn't agree more.

Here is a link that dispels some myths (http://www.nestle.com.sg/purina/Dog/myths.htm) about dog food ingredients, including corn (easy reading :) ).

Here is another link, Technical Report, Corn in Pet Foods (http://www.royalcanin.us/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=84,40,34,6,1,Documents&MediaID=1228&Filename=Corn_in_Pet_Food.pdf), says about the same thing as above link, quote below taken from this link.


However, it is important to understand that either rejecting or accepting a pet food based on the ingredient list is
an oversimplification at best, and more likely evidence of lack of nutritional understanding. There is no single
protein or carbohydrate source that is ideal. Each ingredient has its advantages, and so combinations of ingredients
allow us to construct formulas with very specific features. Some manufacturers would have our customers believe
that using certain ingredients is an attempt to cut costs, and that using those ingredients is choosing profit over
quality. Not only is this incorrect, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of dog and cat physiology.

I wouldn't rule out a dog food on the basis of corn but I wouldn't want it the first ingredient either. I have never had a lab that had problems with corn. Wheat and flax is a different story.

Now that we are on the subject of corn, can anyone explain the difference between "ground yellow corn" and "corn gluten meal" ? I have noticed that some diets do contain corn gluten meal instead of ground yellow corn. What is the difference when consumed by our pets? Is one worse than the other??


Corn gluten meal is a cheap spin off of Corn (adds protein to the guaranteed analysis).. Whole corn ground at at mill like Eagle Pack is nutritious.. Meaning having a food value..

Abady Pet foods believes corn gluten meal destroys the villa..( http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/esp/2002_general/Esp/folder_structure/ab/m4/s7/abm4s7_2.htm ) in the lining of the gut..http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/Itching.htm

and that causes mal-absorption of minerals and other nutrients.
Any proof of that.. it is interesting Corn Gluten Meal is being marketed as an herbicide..http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/?

A diet like Pro Plan Performance has Chicken then Corn gluten meal as a major ingredient, a 30/20 food.. and an un-named animal fat... perhaps the biggest rip off High end Pet Food..

Eagle Pack Power a 30/20 has Chicken Meal (much more animal protein than Chicken) and Ground Corn and Chicken fat(the best quality of all the oils used in pet food)

So reading the labels of Pet Food is a must..;) It is all about getting the most for your $$$ .. That is why I've been saying Taste of the Wild is such a good buy right know..

i would expect purina to say corn is ok. wouldnt you?

i would expect purina to say corn is ok. wouldnt you?


I would expect Purina to say anything is ok.

Uplander, your cited link does not say that "Abaday Pet foods believes corn gluten meal destroys the villa", in fact the word corn is only written once in the last paragraph. Your other link may be a short description of the anatomy of the small intestine but it does not support your idea that corn gluten destroys the villa and causes mal-absorption of minerals and other nutrients. I'm surprised you support dog food with potatoes. Have you ever compared the nutritional properties of potatoes to corn?

Here is a link that you may want to digest: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/short/132/6/1704S

If you would like to read more in depth studies I can recommend this book: Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, by the National Research Council (which advises the federal government).

Uplander, your cited link does not say that "Abaday Pet foods believes corn gluten meal destroys the villa", in fact the word corn is only written once in the last paragraph. Your other link may be a short description of the anatomy of the small intestine but it does not support your idea that corn gluten destroys the villa and causes mal-absorption of minerals and other nutrients. I'm surprised you support dog food with potatoes. Have you ever compared the nutritional properties of potatoes to corn?

Here is a link that you may want to digest: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/short/132/6/1704S

If you would like to read more in depth studies I can recommend this book: Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, by the National Research Council (which advises the federal government).

Here: another Abady preaching:
Link to quote:http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/how_to_choose.htm


Here is a typical example of food promoted as being chicken-based which, in reality, is gluten-based. Gluten is the protein of grain and has a nutritional value of zero, making it the worst source of protein in the industry. There are serious side effects associated with the inclusion of large amounts of gluten in a ration as well. Gluten destroys the villa that line the intestines through which nutrients are pushed into the bloodstream. The gluten filters into the villa and hardens when it dries, causing the villa to break off. Since the villa cannot regenerate themselves, the damage is irreparable and permanent.



The destruction of the villa can result in an inability to absorb nutrients because nutrient absorption is site-specific. If the sites at which specific nutrients are absorbed are nullified by effects of the gluten, the animal may not be able to absorb these particular nutrients – creating deficiencies that could be irreparable. The food described is promoted on the basis of its exclusion of by-products or by-products meals, implying that these ingredients are undesirable and that their avoidance makes their products superior.


Bottom line about Corn.. Dogs do not need it.. The oils from it may be helpful.. but dogs don't eat corn unless man cooks it for them..Rice also.. Carbs contain energy, but protein and oils(fats) as better utilized by our dogs but to make diets affordable and to keep the kibble hard and the shape it is made to a starch has to be added..

I didn't entirely read your last cited article, it isn't signed (who wrote this?) and it doesn't include any references or footnotes to scientific studies backing up claims. I don't know much about The Robert Abady Dog Food Company except what I found in a quick search. The company was started in 1978 but "Related Market & Industry Reports for The Robert Abady Dog Food Company Ltd" starts in 2003. Robert Abady's title is president, they employ 2 people, they have one location in Poughkeepsie, NY with an estimated annual sales of $270,000. I don't know anyone feeding this food but I would bet that it's expensive.

If you believe the contents of this article then you must also believe this statement from the article: "Following the advice on nutrition of the Whole Dog Journal on nutrition will often steer you in the wrong direction. Their opinions generally are scientifically invalid and often lack basic common sense." You refer to the Whole Dog Journal like it was the bible of dog nutrition. Which one do you believe?

I don't care to argue with you as your ramblings are often based on opinion and should be stated as such.

I didn't entirely read your last cited article, it isn't signed (who wrote this?) and it doesn't include any references or footnotes to scientific studies backing up claims. I don't know much about The Robert Abady Dog Food Company except what I found in a quick search. The company was started in 1978 but "Related Market & Industry Reports for The Robert Abady Dog Food Company Ltd" starts in 2003. Robert Abady's title is president, they employ 2 people, they have one location in Poughkeepsie, NY with an estimated annual sales of $270,000. I don't know anyone feeding this food but I would bet that it's expensive.

If you believe the contents of this article then you must also believe this statement from the article: "Following the advice on nutrition of the Whole Dog Journal on nutrition will often steer you in the wrong direction. Their opinions generally are scientifically invalid and often lack basic common sense." You refer to the Whole Dog Journal like it was the bible of dog nutrition. Which one do you believe?

I don't care to argue with you as your ramblings are often based on opinion and should be stated as such.

The quote "Dogs do not need corn" is not an opinion... it is a FACT. Citing completely biased links from Purina is not exactly fair. Of course Purina is going to stick by their products.. what kind of marketing would they have if they didn't?

And all your links come from unbiased sources? Who funds all these sites by groups I have never heard of?

I agree dogs do not need corn. It is touted as a source of protein by some dog food companies. It is a poor source of protein as compared to meat or fish and a lot cheaper for the company.

And it is a fact that there are many dogs that can not tolerate corn. I had one and it was awful and not easy in those days to find a food without corn.

It was stated above that carbs contain energy. For humans yes. But, not for dogs. Dogs draw their energy from fat.

I agree with Bett. I won't eat poor quality food (garbage) and won't feed it to my dogs either. The better we and our dogs eat the healthier we will be and longer we will live IMO.

The quote "Dogs do not need corn" is not an opinion... it is a FACT.

Dogs don't need meat either as there are many dogs that live on a vegetarian diet. To say that dog food containing corn is bad or harmful, that corn has no nutritional value and is not digested is wrong.

ya know what-if you (whoever you might be)want to feed kibble with corn and grains, and your dogs are ok, great. if not, so be it. we all know folks who have fed dogs table scraps, cooked bones-chicken and meat bones, and all sorts of other "stuff" and the dogs thrived. (or so the owners felt). yet , there are others who wouldnt dream of doing it. to ask for footnoted writings, and cite sources as if this is a doctoral dicitation is absurd. (sorry but it is silly, in my opinion only) anyone who wants to can google their brains out and most (i have no documentation on this folks other than i read much) tell you that grains can (dont have to but can)cause issues and corn is basically worthless to a dog. but going round and round about corn and grains is tiresome and doesnt prove squat.
corn is just not a good "choice" for dogs.

That is exactly right... dogs do not draw energy from grains... they draw it from fat and protein. (If they draw it from carbs... why would my raw fed dog run around like a nut case?)

Dogs are CARNIVORES... there is no way around that... so why someone would want to feed a CARNIVORE a corn, grain or vegetable based diet is beyond me.

And BTW, Labman, I haven't posted a link, so how my "link" comes from sources you've never heard of is beyond me.

I feel the same way, it's an individual decision. If you want to feed foods with or without corn so be it. I don't think all posts require scientific backing but some statements are opinions and are presented as scientific fact. If someone on a budget is feeding a food with corn in it (with no problems) and then after reading some of these posts comes to the conclusion that it's a harmful and useless ingredient, how do you think they would feel?

i understand your point however, most of what folks on this board say is basically their opinion. some opinions are valued more than others for a variety of reasons. truthfully, anyone can google and read and learn in addition to listening to us (the collective "us"). i worry more about people who have dogs and cant afford vet care, when it's needed than whether or not they eat crappy (or what I think is crappy) food.
there was a time when i too, was not as informed as i am now, and fed name brand crap. and my dog was terribly allergic. and guess what?my vet sent us to a dermatologist who never once asked me what i fed my dog.i now know that that should've been a red flag. after all, my dog was ripping himself apart, and never once did any vet ask what i fed him. we spent $500. for tests (29 yrs ago) and gave him shots ourselves but it wasnt the grasses that he came up allergic to. i know that now.
and i fed him stuff that "probably" contributed to his illness.

Everybody smile. Very good! The conversation always goes this way.......each person having their opinion and preference when it comes to dog food. Just like raising human kids....some cannot tolerate a certain diet, and the parents have a right to choose what kind of diet they will be fed. We will never all agree.....so let's just agree to have our own feelings and read each article pro/con with intelligence.

Coopspuppy

On the Woodhaven site I mentioned, one page explains what each common ingredient is.

Now, can somebody explain how dogs do just fine on chow with large amounts of corn? It is true dogs don't digest it completely and the more of it in their chow the larger and softer the stools.

While is is quite easy to fine websites condeming its use, it is impossible to find any proof behind them.

I hope it's ok if I quote you. Here is one good reason for not feeding a corn-based food. Why waste your money on something that just ends up on your lawn? Anything not utilized by a dog passes through and therefore is not needed in the diet. Companies add filler to save money, your dog passes it because it's useless to him/her and you end up throwing it out.

I have no problem with people feeding whatever they can afford. Dogs will survive on it, some will actually thrive on it. However, that fact alone does not make it a "good" food.

I hope it's ok if I quote you. Here is one good reason for not feeding a corn-based food. Why waste your money on something that just ends up on your lawn? Anything not utilized by a dog passes through and therefore is not needed in the diet. Companies add filler to save money, your dog passes it because it's useless to him/her and you end up throwing it out.

I have no problem with people feeding whatever they can afford. Dogs will survive on it, some will actually thrive on it. However, that fact alone does not make it a "good" food.

Very, very good point. I'd like to add to that... with grain free foods, you feed much less since more is utilized... another money saver.

This reminds me of the story about ''How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?'' Four, calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. So calling corn a useless filler won't keep dogs from digesting most of it.

If corn, rice, and other grains are so useless, why don't chows with large amounts have much lower usable calories per unit weight?

tell us.

To the OP ...I agree with your friend. After having had a dog who was allergic and being clueless about food :( I now avoid corn, wheat, and soy.

As far as the begging, I would not give n, and sure it will take time to break the habit. Good luck.

From Orijen White paper... http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/documents/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf
a quote from one of the world's top canine feeding authority.. Dr. David Kronfeld

(Dr. Kronfeld may not be as familiar as the other two within the petfood industry, but he was a virtual giant in the field of veterinary nutrition. He was one of only 18 Charter Diplomates in the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) when it was formed in the late 1980s.

Much of Dr. Kronfeld's work in later years at Virginia Tech focused on equine nutrition, but his contributions to the field of canine nutrition, especially in regard to the feeding of sled dogs, cannot be underestimated. To borrow from an old country western song, he "was ‘low carb' when ‘low carb' wasn't cool...."

http://www.petfoodindustry.com/ViewArticle.aspx?id=13560

This means carbohydrates are not
predigested and take a long time to
break down in the stomach and small
intestine. Most complex carbohydrates
pass through undigested, and create
large stools in the dog.
o Dr. David Kronfeld reports that
carbohydrates are important for dogs in
just two situations: puppies just coming
off the mother’s milk (which is 12%
carbohydrates) and the lactating bitch,
which needs three times the usual
turnover of blood glucose for production
of milk. He goes on to state that "no
carbohydrates need be provided in the
diet for pups after weaning or adult
dogs, not even for those subjected to
hard work.

From Orijen White paper... http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/documents/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf
a quote from one of the world's top canine feeding authority.. Dr. David Kronfeld



http://www.petfoodindustry.com/ViewArticle.aspx?id=13560

EXCELLENT article. Perhaps this is the reason why grain based kibbles sit in the stomach for such a long time... they are difficult to digest.

Well, I am one of those people that choose to feed a high end food. Or at least one of better quality than store bought chow. First of all, I don't beleive there have been enough of us spending our childrens inheiritances on kibble for long enough for any "study" to be accurate. Give it 20 yrs and I'll bet you you'll see less disease in animals. IMO it's like human food. We can survive on bologna sandwhiches and potoato chips however, this does not mean its good for us.

Just my intake for what it is worth..:)

One....I don't go for the links at all from pet food companies. They will seek out from any article that any Dr. has written (which is that Dr. opinion, not based on research) in regards to what is good or bad for a dog. I personally would look at a link with more an open mind, that dogs were used in research..For the record..There was an article (JN) I read (research done on dogs) that dogs survived and produced normal healthy litters when the dogs were fed corn, alfalfa, etc..without meats, but vitamin liquid form deprived from liver and meat..Now, does this mean I would feed my dogs this..heck no. They would go crazy itching with the alfalfa. However, the conclusion to that article is that if you feed a dog what vitamins it needs to survive, it will. Whether good or bad..

Two..With corn..I have actually read articles that the corn in dog food in which it is processed IS actually digestible. Does this mean I will feed my dog corn..NO. With the issue of corn being a main ingredient, that the dog is allergic to, how do people know that, unless the dog is tested for it? There are so many ingredients in dog food that it could be ANYTHING in that food. I personally think that some underestimate what alfalfa for instance can do to a dog. I have 3 dogs that can not tolerate it at all. Buster and Max included two of my raw fed dogs..I think some look at corn as corn we eat as far as the issue as being digestible, corn in dog food is processed differently, therefor you cannot compare. Most dog foods that have corn in them, also have seemly more different ingredients in them. So I think (my opinion) that there are more things a dog can be allergic to, but corn issues have circulated for so long that it is always to blame. I think it is important to be aware of ALL ingredients. But, no one can say their dog is allergic to corn, unless it has been tested for it.

Grains..I'm personally not a stickler on grains. Whether a dog needs them or not, I will say I have had dogs that do better on a food with some grains in it. If a dog food has rice in it, and that is the only grain in it, and my dog does well on it, I'll use it. Just me of course..Now, would I feed a food with many grains, no..

I just feel that some dog foods, including "grain free" have "other" ingredients in them that can cause issues with your dogs. However, no one seems to ever bring these things up. Only things brought up is corn and grains in general. I have one dog (raw fed now) that could not tolerate alfalfa, flax, egg products all of which are normally in a "grain free" food, which I must say is annoying. (Hence the reason he is on raw now, as even grain free did not help him)..He can not tolerate grains either, as that was the first thing I took off his list of possible issues when seeing what he had issues to.

To me a kibble should be "simple" to start with, the less ingredients the better. Much easier to narrow down issues doing it this way.

I'm surely not taking up for corn or grains, as most know how I feed my dogs. However, I do feel like there is too much "pointing the finger" on these ingredients and not enough on "other" ingredients that could also cause problems with your dogs..and I think that most that have been doing this for years realize this.

Okay off my soapbox..

This reminds me of the story about ''How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?'' Four, calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

Meh. What do you think you'd thrive on if you could only eat one thing your entire life? Corn or high quality protein? Really this isn't rocket science.

Corn and rice certainly won't kill your dog, but I don't think it should be the majority of what they eat.

Another thing to think about in the Domestic dog is the theory of Adaptation..

That our dogs living with us today grew up from Dump feeding wild dogs that ate anything we threw away.. as civilized man developed from nomads into village life. The dogs that survived learned, or adapted to the diet of the dump... Mans garbage.. PBS did a great series on this.. It would appear, only from personal observations that "Mutts" more resemble those dogs.. They can eat anything.. ..If we look at "Labradors" in particular so many may becoming allergy dogs, not able to eat grains, only raw... they may be reverting back to their roots.. The Wolf.. who is a meat eater.. because as the gene pool narrows we may have bred out the ability to survive around the dump..

Just wanted to add...

With the way the economy is now, I think people will be feeding more of what they can afford to their dogs. I personally would not think twice if it made a difference whether or not I could keep my dogs, to feed them whatever, so they could survive and I could still have them. I do agree with Loretta with the statement she made, how do you think some feel when they always read this, especially if they cannot afford to feed anything better..We could all be in that boat one day the way things are going, and I sure will not lose my roof over my head over it..I could not imagine living on the streets with 5 dogs, because I did not want to feed corn or grains. The $ store dog food would sound good then for me, if it meant keeping my gang. This conversation would all sound pretty silly then to me:)

i think we all agree that if the economy hit us so we couldnt feed what we would LIKE to feed our pets, anything is better than nothing. however, that is not what we were discussing.
and fyi-i use kirkland, a decent kibble which just went up to $20 for 40 lbs. which is cheap as the others i wouldnt use.
we're not trying to make anyone feel guilty about feeding cheaper food, if that's all you can do.we all try and do the best for our animals.

i think we all agree that if the economy hit us so we couldnt feed what we would LIKE to feed our pets, anything is better than nothing


That is why I said "just to add"..:)


fyi-i use kirkland, a decent kibble which just went up to $20 for 40 lbs. which is cheap as the others i wouldnt use.



yes..I know you feed this, and that is one of my points.:) (perhaps not made correctly..lol) You don't have to feed a high end kibble to some dogs, as some actually do better on a middle of the line kibble. You have realized this from your experience (as I have), another point I stressed. Trust me if we had a Costa around I would have tried that food also. No such store anywhere close to me..:( My point is you have to know your ingredients, and not just get stuck with the corn and grain issues.

absolutely true.

Uplander, you missed my point completely. I was speaking about corn, not carbohydrates as a group and I did not say that corn was necessary in a dogs diet. If you are so adamant that carbs are harmful then look to what you're feeding. Are the carbs that you're feeding "safe"? If you don't want to feed carbs then you shouldn't be feeding kibble at all.

Corn has gotten a bad rap here and I'm not a fan of grains either. I do think the majority of food related problems in dogs are more likely attributed to grains vs. protein but it should be determined which grain(s) or ingredient(s) first. There are countless people that have never done an elimination diet that will claim allergies to many ingredients when a kibble doesn't work. Problems can be from a single ingredient and a simple diet can help narrow it down. The reason raw can work for some dogs when a kibble diet fails is because there is a lack of grains and "other" ingredients. Some dogs can tolerate and even benefit from some grains, it depends on the dog. Kallie gets it and has said it beautifully.

Not everyone can afford to feed high end grain free foods and those with puppies shouldn't be feeding these foods because of high amounts of calcium. What are puppies going to eat? Orijen has a grain free kibble with claims of 1.6% Calcium (min) to 1.8% (max). The sample that I sent to Midwest Laboratories for analysis came up with 2.09% calcium. This food also contains fish, something I don't feel comfortable feeding puppies on a daily basis. Potatoes can be just as problematic as some grains and I prefer rice. The cost of rice is going way up and in the future we may be seeing less of it in our dog food. I think there's a better chance that a puppy could tolerate corn over wheat. Many dogs in our past have lived very long lives on kibble with corn and there are many "show" people who feed it successfully. Making broad statements claiming that corn is a worthless, non-digestible filler that destroys the digestive tract is not right.

In my opinion, over vaccinating your dog does more harm to your dog in terms of longevity and good health than eating grains if your dog can tolerate them. There are a lot of people who feed grain free that still vaccinate for everything under the sun and more often then the current recommended protocol.

This means carbohydrates are not
predigested and take a long time to
break down in the stomach and small
intestine. Most complex carbohydrates
pass through undigested, and create
large stools in the dog.
o Dr. David Kronfeld reports that
carbohydrates are important for dogs in
just two situations: puppies just coming
off the mother’s milk (which is 12%
carbohydrates) and the lactating bitch,
which needs three times the usual
turnover of blood glucose for production
of milk. He goes on to state that "no
carbohydrates need be provided in the
diet for pups after weaning or adult
dogs, not even for those subjected to
hard work.


Good points made in this. carbs (carbs are rice, corn, surgum, wheat, potatoes, etc) directly effect blood glucose levels. Different carbs digest at different rates and effect the rise in blood glucose levels differently.

It is entirely possible to control the rise in glucose levels by selecting grains carefully. Potatoes (which are the primary carb source in many "grain free" foods) are the absolute worst carb to ingest. Potatoes produce a sharp rise in glucose levels. As sharp and, as fast as if you ate white table sugar.

In human health, it is best practice to avoild sharp glucose spikes as it can lead to type two diabetes. The slower, controled glucose rise seen is some grains like whole wheat or brown rice is healther for the body. White rice and corn are similar in glycemic load on the body, not the best and not the worst.

I take a common sense approach to the corn in dog food debate. Millions of dogs have eatten foods containing corn and live/lived healthly lives. Corn allergies in dogs seem on par with allergies to other foods like rice, wheat, beef, chicken and other products. If your dog is healthly and not allergic it should not be an issue if one makes that choice.

In my opinion, over vaccinating your dog does more harm to your dog in terms of longevity and good health than eating grains if your dog can tolerate them. There are a lot of people who feed grain free that still vaccinate for everything under the sun and more often then the current recommended protocol.

Yep, which in turn can cause a crappy immune system.:( Which could actually be in "some" cases the reason for the allergies to this or that to begin with.