We Finally are switching and bought a bag of the regular Chicken and Turkey formula...How many of you guys feed this how has your experience been?

Also we are thinking of supplementing with Glucosamine and Chondroitin how many of you do that and what kind you use?

Thanks! :)

I think Natura is a very well-respected company and I have used the regular chicken and turkey EVO in my dogs' kibble rotation. I liked the results best with my 2 yr. old Luna and less well with my senior golden. I think the 22% fat was a bit much for him.

I've never supplemented with glucosamine or chondroitin with my younger dogs. I've been giving glucosamine to my golden since he was 5 yrs. old.
Right now, I give a human grade (Carlson brand) glucosamine capsule (750 MG) daily. Some times I've used a pet store product (can't remember the name) that also contained tumeric and a few other herbs. Sometimes pet supplements can include sugar, salt, etc. so you have to read the labels carefully.

I have a pup (3 years old now) in a pet home on the EVO chicken and she does well on it. But, she is not getting as much exercise and has put on weight. EVO is hi in fat.

Dogs draw their energy from fat first so if the dog is not active enough you may see weight gain.

I have used Innova, CA Natural, and EVO with very good results. The high cost of pet food made me do some research into other brands. I found Kirkland Signature dog food to be a very capable alternative. I started my two year old lab about six months ago and she seems to be doing better with it than Innova. Go figure!!! Her coat is better and energy level is great. My 11 year old weimaraner is doing great with the senior food which includes glucosamine and chondroitin. For 1/3 the price, I am staying with it.

Bailey is very active so I tried EVO around 6 months ago. This food didn't work for her.

Hoping you have good luck with it.

My mom's two labs were switched to Evo at one point, and had bad diarhea after being on it for about a week...but that may be b/c my mom didn't switch them over slowly enough

Thanks for the feedback guys....and Patty Yes Tater is Very active, we do lots of training with him and are going to be running hunt tests this coming spring/summer...so this is one of the reasons why we choice this brand and formula.

Bailey is very active so I tried EVO around 6 months ago. This food didn't work for her.

Hoping you have good luck with it.

What exactly didn't work for her? can you explain? Thanks.

What exactly didn't work for her? can you explain? Thanks.


Gave her the runs and I switched her over gradually.

It's important to remember that EVO should not be fed to dog under the age of 1 and some prefer 18 months to 24 months. It is not an All Life Stages (ALS) food.

My dogs responded very well to both EVO and EVO Reduced Fat...I have not fed it exclusively but as 20% of their kibble portion.

It's important to remember that EVO should not be fed to dog under the age of 1 and some prefer 18 months to 24 months. It is not an All Life Stages (ALS) food.

My dogs responded very well to both EVO and EVO Reduced Fat...I have not fed it exclusively but as 20% of their kibble portion.


I tried EVO when Bailey was around 14 months. My vet sells EVO and thought it would be a good food to try with her being so active but after around 3 weeks my vet said to take her off of it.

EVO is an ALS food ... but not recommended for puppies who have joint growth issues like Labs....

I have some material from Natura that also states the geriatric dog also may not do well on it...because of existing conditions like kidney function loss, and their Innova line would be better.. These high protein diets are really for healthy active adult dogs....when their kidneys can process the food the best...

The reason for sticking with a medium range protein diet during growth 27-30 % is to keep growth slow and steady....The dog utilizes protein very well and the high octane 40 % protein diets can cause rapid growth and that does not allow the proper development of the joint capsule...that information may or may not be true for every dog so most owners err on the side of caution....but I can also tell you many people have fed Orijen Lg. breed puppy and their pups grew fine...It doesn't include as much bone (Calcium) in the formula ...

To the OP...a must is use way less of this diet....most people will see loose stool after a few weeks because their dog no longer needs as much and a natural way they rid themselves of excess is defecation...

EVO gave my dogs the squirts, but then again all Natura products do.

Hobbes doesn really well with EVO - less poop, actually. We did decrease the amount of food we give him, however, because it is such a dense fool.

EVO gave my dogs the squirts, but then again all Natura products do.

If you what you wrote is true, I would have your dog checked out by a good vet. This is a case where it is not the food, but the dog. I can see a certain variety of a food from a company causing gastrointestinal problems, but not all their products.

Natura pet foods are what other manufacturers compare their food to. Simply, as of this writing, Natura in all likelyhood makes the best dog food on the market.

If you what you wrote is true, I would have your dog checked out by a good vet. This is a case where it is not the food, but the dog. I can see a certain variety of a food from a company causing gastrointestinal problems, but not all their products.

Natura pet foods are what other manufacturers compare their food to. Simply, as of this writing, Natura in all likelyhood makes the best dog food on the market.

If there is something in Natura's premix that doesn't jive with a dog then all their products probably won't work.

So other manufacturers compare their food to Natura? Where did you get this gem of information? References please.

As I said in my first post, I think very highly of Natura as a company and use EVO as part of my dogs' kibble rotation. Somehow though, I think Champion Petfoods (Orijen, Acana) which won "Pet Food of the Year" 2009 award and Horizon (Legacy) might believe they're in the same league as Natura and just as good.

As I said in my first post, I think very highly of Natura as a company and use EVO as part of my dogs' kibble rotation. Somehow though, I think Champion Petfoods (Orijen, Acana) which won "Pet Food of the Year" 2009 award and Horizon (Legacy) might believe they're in the same league as Natura and just as good.

This is true and probably those you mentioned might be a little better. IMHO I think those foods are one class up from Natura products. I believe most of the products that Natura makes are mid-priced when it comes to dog food. Where those foods you mentioned are at the top of the scale of dog foods.

The thing is you cannot compare Purina, Iams/Eukanuba products to Natura products. They are not even close to being in the same class as Natura foods.

This is true and probably those you mentioned might be a little better. IMHO I think those foods are one class up from Natura products. I believe most of the products that Natura makes are mid-priced when it comes to dog food. Where those foods you mentioned are at the top of the scale of dog foods.

The thing is you cannot compare Purina, Iams/Eukanuba products to Natura products. They are not even close to being in the same class as Natura foods.

You have no idea.

You have no idea.

It's too bad you cannot accept what is, is....

If I had the time I would do an ingredient comparison between Pukanuba, Pro Plan and Innova...and fact cannot be disputed...

It's too bad you cannot accept what is, is....

If I had the time I would do an ingredient comparison between Pukanuba, Pro Plan and Innova...and fact cannot be disputed...

What is it that you don't understand? Some dogs do thrive on one food while others will thrive on another. Sometimes these are premium foods generally most of the time they are not. A number of reputable breeders on here, and others that don't come here are very active in the breed, feed the foods you dislike...but they are knowledgeable people; breeding, training, and competing with gorgeous dogs; they have PROVEN RESULTS and you seem to think that that does not count for anything.

I, like you, feed Natura products, but IMO, it is a big overwhelming.

It's too bad you cannot accept what is, is....

If I had the time I would do an ingredient comparison between Pukanuba, Pro Plan and Innova...and fact cannot be disputed...

I did a quick NA comparison of 2 puppy foods, Eukanuba Puppy and Innova Puppy. I used the puppy formulas because I had the NA for Eukanuba Puppy, the NA for Innova Puppy is supplied online. It's incorrect to compare the price/lb of dog food like I did because you will feed less with a food that has a higher Kcal/cup. To save time I calculated the price/lb anyway but the Eukanuba Puppy has more Kcal/cup and you would get slightly more servings per pound making it an even better value than what is reflected.

Eukanuba Puppy
Protein 29.55%
Fat 17.9%
Fiber 2.11%
Carbohydrate 36.66%
Ca:P ratio 1.4:1
Prebiotic Included

462.9 Kcal/cup
$58.99/40 lb. bag
$1.47/lb. (Petfood direct)

Innova Puppy
Protein 28.07%
Fat 16.95%
Fiber 2.06%
Carbohydrates 41.81%
Ca:P ratio 1.3:1
No prebiotic added

454 Kcal/cup
$51.99/30 lb. bag
$1.70/lb. (Petfood direct)

Eukanuba is a more nutritious food for a cheaper price. The big difference is in the carbohydrates, with Innova you are paying more money for a formula that is heavier in carbohydrates. (According to Bearsowner, carbohydrates are fillers that end up on your lawn.) The NA (nutrient analysis) tells you how nutritious a food is and the ingredient list tells you where the nutrients come from. You may be squeamish or have phobias about some ingredients but your dog loves them. If your knowledge came from dogfoodanalysis, you are being misled by someone who doesn't know physiology, chemistry or the proper definitions of some ingredients.

Eukanuba is not even in the same league as Innova, there is nothing to compare. We are talking about the QUALITY of the ingredients that go into the food for one thing. Where does Eukanuba claim they get their ingredients from? Is it listed on there website or on the bag? Innova discloses all their sources of their ingredients.

Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy:

Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal (Natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Brewers Rice, Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Fish Meal, Dried Egg Product, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed

One meat source protein, and then it all goes down hill. Corn is an unnecessary ingredient in dog food, manufacturers use because it is cheap, another suspect ingredient besides the chicken by-products, is beet pulp. Then they add Fish Meal, really? What kind of fish, sun fish from the pond in back of the plant?

Innova Puppy:

Turkey
Turkey is the clean combination of flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts or whole carcasses of turkey or a combination of thereof - exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, and entrails.
Turkey is an excellent source of highly digestible protein. Natura uses high-quality turkey in many of our formulations.



Chicken
Chicken is the clean combination of flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts or whole carcasses of chicken - exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, and entrails.

Chicken is an excellent source of protein.



Chicken Meal
Chicken meal is the dry rendered (cooked down) product from a combination of clean flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts of whole carcasses of chicken -- exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, or entrails.

Natura uses high-quality chicken meal in many of our foods as an excellent source of protein.



Barley
Barley is a major food and animal feed crop, a member of the grass family Poaceae. Ground barley is the entire barley kernel, ground or chopped.

Ground Barley is a good quality source of carbohydrates. Because Natura uses the entire barley kernel, it contributes additional protein, barley oil, bran, vitamins and minerals to the diet.



Brown Rice
The whole rice kernel containing the nutrient-rich bran with only the rice hull removed.

Brown Rice is rich in numerous nutrients like B-vitamins, magnesium, and fatty acids.



Rice
Rice, unless listed as brown rice, is the de-hulled rice kernel, without the bran -- known as white rice.




Chicken Fat
(naturally preserved with mixed Tocopherols) Chicken fat is obtained from the tissues of chickens in the commercial process of rendering or extracting.

Chicken fat is the highest of all animal sources in linoleic acid (over 23%), an important element for skin and coat health. Because Natura uses such high-quality chicken, this is a high-quality source of fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E).



Herring
Herring is the clean tissue of undecomposed whole herring or herring cuttings, either or both.

Herring is an excellent single-source protein. It is also an excellent source of Omega 3 fatty acids. Natura uses whole, high-quality herring, which are ground and added to the ingredient mix.


As you can see the first 3 ingredients of Innova Puppy are from MEAT sources and NO CORN. Barley is used in premium dog foods, it costs a little more, but is a much better grain than corn and tolerated better than corn in most dogs. And down the list a named type of fish, Herring is used in Innova, not a broad term as "Fish Meal".


Remember YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. YOU PAY LESS, YOU GET LESS.

If Pukanuba is all you can afford, then I would suppose it is better than nothing at all...


Oh one thing more, my dogs stools turn white after a few days if I don't get to pick them up right away....you should know what that means....wonder if the same thing happens with a dog eating Eukanuba???

If Pukanuba is all you can afford, then I would suppose it is better than nothing at all...





Winner of the 2009 Food Snob of the Year goes to...........yeah you guessed it.

:first:

Enjoy your award, I'm sure you will retain your title in 2010.

Bearsowner, in order to be an "educated consumer" you need to be knowledgeable about ingredients and ignore marketing propaganda. Lovemylabby has posted some good information about corn in the shedding thread ( http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/shedding-help-dogs-t7342095p4.html ), see post #52, that will get you started.

While I am not a fan of Eukanuba, never will be.

I do have to say the Innova LB puppy food is pretty high in carbohydrates; however, I DO like the fact that they use meat sources as the first few ingredients, while other foods jump immediately to cheaper protein sources, irregardless *what* that source is, i.e. corn; it's still a cheaper source then actual use of meat.

I think if Eukanuba simply disclosed sources of where their ingredients are to be coming from, tons more people would put faith into their products. To me, it's not always *just* about the listed ingredients, but rather the quality/sources of those ingredients.

I for one WILL be adding in corn to my dogs diets, but it will be corn from sources I can buy at the regular grocery store, and not corn added in from a dog food plant, which probably has very little nutrients left in it by the time it actually gets processed a million times over.

Bearsowner - I agree with you on a lot of points, but to throw the comments out about *if that's all one owner can afford, is better then nothing* is pretty crappy. Do you not realize today's recession is causing thousands upon thousands of k-9/animal owners/lovers into feeding what ever is *literally* available??

At least they are still able to FEED their pets irregardless of the quality at a time when many are barely still able to keep a house and put food on the table for ALL breathing things in the house.

I get the impression that you are probably into your early retirement years, and have been around the block with dogs and food sources, I understand that, and even agree with you on a lot of levels. BUT, you're literally making it a point in telling people that they're better off NOT feeding their dogs rather then feeding Eukanuba, Iams, etc.

If it comes to my dog keeping weight ON by eating Iams, I'm surely going to definitely feed him anything I can rather then allowing him to starve simply cause one can't afford a higher end food.

I definitely agree higher nutrition is always better, but thousands of college grads who are hitting the real world and are pet owners, are not able to find jobs as quickly as those college grads from years past....AND, to even afford college this day and age is next to impossible without having a literal life long length of debt, most of them can't even buy a new house for many many years to come.

Are you suggesting they get rid of their much beloved pet because they can't afford Innova over Eukanuba, even though their pet is extremely loved and taken care of?

just switched from orijen to EVO red, as I think Zen was building up an intolerance to chicken

so far so good

Hello-

I recently joined this forum- and coincidentally work for The Iams Company. Anytime the topic of nutrition comes up- there is guaranteed to be a healthy debate following!

I respect everyone’s opinions and my intentions are not to stir the pot, so to speak, but I would like to answer of few of the questions I have seen in this thread. There is no one dog food that fits every dog out there. What works well for one dog may not be the best for another.

We get a lot of questions about the use of corn in our formulas. Corn is an excellent carbohydrate source. We use high-quality corn that is finely ground (breaking up the outside bran covering), and cooked. When prepared in our manufacturing facilities, corn is highly digestible and provides dogs with high-quality carbohydrates for essential energy.


Currently there is a lot of controversy regarding the use of carbohydrates in dog and cat food. We do use a patented carbohydrate blend in Eukanuba. Rice tends to give the highest spike in blood glucose, sorghum and corn result in a moderate increase in insulin levels, and barley provides the lowest increase in blood sugar levels. In our dog foods, we use grain sorghum (also called milo) and barley that minimizes swings in blood glucose, and supplies sustained energy. In our puppy food, as listed above, we use corn, rice and sorghum. The reason we use those three in our puppy foods is due to puppies activity levels- they need rice for the burst of energy that puppies have as well as corn and sorghum to sustain that energy.

We recently added Prebiotics to the majority of Eukanuba foods- since 70% of a dogs immune system in their intestines; we added Prebiotics to promote the growth of good bacteria and crowd out the bad bacteria.

Beet pulp is the material which remains after sugar is extracted from sugar beets- not red beets. We use beet pulp as a source of fiber in our foods. It is a moderately fermentable fiber that provides bulk to move waste and provides energy for cells lining the intestine, which promotes a healthier intestine.

I noticed the question of fish meal- our fish meal comes from cold water sources in the north Atlantic and far south Pacific Oceans. It is an excellent source of high-quality protein that is rich in fish oil and is a source of Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

And finally, there is the question of Chicken By-Product Meal. Chicken by-product meal may include stuff that people have a cultural aversion to eating; but that doesn't make it a bad source of protein. It is an excellent and complete source of protein because it provides each of the amino acids that are essential to good nutrition for dogs and cats. Our chicken by-product meal is muscle and internal organs (including intestines) that have been cleaned, dried, cooked, and ground.

I hope this has been of some help! It is time for me to feed the hounds....they are currently staring at me ;)

Hello-

I recently joined this forum- and coincidentally work for The Iams Company. Anytime the topic of nutrition comes up- there is guaranteed to be a healthy debate following!

I respect everyone’s opinions and my intentions are not to stir the pot, so to speak, but I would like to answer of few of the questions I have seen in this thread. There is no one dog food that fits every dog out there. What works well for one dog may not be the best for another.

We get a lot of questions about the use of corn in our formulas. Corn is an excellent carbohydrate source. We use high-quality corn that is finely ground (breaking up the outside bran covering), and cooked. When prepared in our manufacturing facilities, corn is highly digestible and provides dogs with high-quality carbohydrates for essential energy.


Currently there is a lot of controversy regarding the use of carbohydrates in dog and cat food. We do use a patented carbohydrate blend in Eukanuba. Rice tends to give the highest spike in blood glucose, sorghum and corn result in a moderate increase in insulin levels, and barley provides the lowest increase in blood sugar levels. In our dog foods, we use grain sorghum (also called milo) and barley that minimizes swings in blood glucose, and supplies sustained energy. In our puppy food, as listed above, we use corn, rice and sorghum. The reason we use those three in our puppy foods is due to puppies activity levels- they need rice for the burst of energy that puppies have as well as corn and sorghum to sustain that energy.

We recently added Prebiotics to the majority of Eukanuba foods- since 70% of a dogs immune system in their intestines; we added Prebiotics to promote the growth of good bacteria and crowd out the bad bacteria.

Beet pulp is the material which remains after sugar is extracted from sugar beets- not red beets. We use beet pulp as a source of fiber in our foods. It is a moderately fermentable fiber that provides bulk to move waste and provides energy for cells lining the intestine, which promotes a healthier intestine.

I noticed the question of fish meal- our fish meal comes from cold water sources in the north Atlantic and far south Pacific Oceans. It is an excellent source of high-quality protein that is rich in fish oil and is a source of Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

And finally, there is the question of Chicken By-Product Meal. Chicken by-product meal may include stuff that people have a cultural aversion to eating; but that doesn't make it a bad source of protein. It is an excellent and complete source of protein because it provides each of the amino acids that are essential to good nutrition for dogs and cats. Our chicken by-product meal is muscle and internal organs (including intestines) that have been cleaned, dried, cooked, and ground.

I hope this has been of some help! It is time for me to feed the hounds....they are currently staring at me ;)


Thank you very much for taking the time to write this! ;);)

Hello-

I recently joined this forum- and coincidentally work for The Iams Company. Anytime the topic of nutrition comes up- there is guaranteed to be a healthy debate following!

I respect everyone’s opinions and my intentions are not to stir the pot, so to speak, but I would like to answer of few of the questions I have seen in this thread. There is no one dog food that fits every dog out there. What works well for one dog may not be the best for another.

We get a lot of questions about the use of corn in our formulas. Corn is an excellent carbohydrate source. We use high-quality corn that is finely ground (breaking up the outside bran covering), and cooked. When prepared in our manufacturing facilities, corn is highly digestible and provides dogs with high-quality carbohydrates for essential energy.


Currently there is a lot of controversy regarding the use of carbohydrates in dog and cat food. We do use a patented carbohydrate blend in Eukanuba. Rice tends to give the highest spike in blood glucose, sorghum and corn result in a moderate increase in insulin levels, and barley provides the lowest increase in blood sugar levels. In our dog foods, we use grain sorghum (also called milo) and barley that minimizes swings in blood glucose, and supplies sustained energy. In our puppy food, as listed above, we use corn, rice and sorghum. The reason we use those three in our puppy foods is due to puppies activity levels- they need rice for the burst of energy that puppies have as well as corn and sorghum to sustain that energy.

We recently added Prebiotics to the majority of Eukanuba foods- since 70% of a dogs immune system in their intestines; we added Prebiotics to promote the growth of good bacteria and crowd out the bad bacteria.

Beet pulp is the material which remains after sugar is extracted from sugar beets- not red beets. We use beet pulp as a source of fiber in our foods. It is a moderately fermentable fiber that provides bulk to move waste and provides energy for cells lining the intestine, which promotes a healthier intestine.

I noticed the question of fish meal- our fish meal comes from cold water sources in the north Atlantic and far south Pacific Oceans. It is an excellent source of high-quality protein that is rich in fish oil and is a source of Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

And finally, there is the question of Chicken By-Product Meal. Chicken by-product meal may include stuff that people have a cultural aversion to eating; but that doesn't make it a bad source of protein. It is an excellent and complete source of protein because it provides each of the amino acids that are essential to good nutrition for dogs and cats. Our chicken by-product meal is muscle and internal organs (including intestines) that have been cleaned, dried, cooked, and ground.

I hope this has been of some help! It is time for me to feed the hounds....they are currently staring at me ;)


Thank you for writing this out. I have considered Eukanuba, but for some reason barely causes my dog to have eye boogers. It took me a year to figure this out. At one point I wanted to try Eukanuba Active Performance 28/18 because it has no barely. I do have one question which wasn't answered when I inquired with the company. Is your fish meal in Eukanuba preserved with ethoxyquin? I know you don't add it to your food, but does your supplier preserve the fish meal with it before you get it? Fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin is a real hang up for me and something I choose to avoid in pet food.

Thanks,
Nancy

Hello-

I recently joined this forum- and coincidentally work for The Iams Company. Anytime the topic of nutrition comes up- there is guaranteed to be a healthy debate following!

I respect everyone’s opinions and my intentions are not to stir the pot, so to speak, but I would like to answer of few of the questions I have seen in this thread. There is no one dog food that fits every dog out there. What works well for one dog may not be the best for another.

We get a lot of questions about the use of corn in our formulas. Corn is an excellent carbohydrate source. We use high-quality corn that is finely ground (breaking up the outside bran covering), and cooked. When prepared in our manufacturing facilities, corn is highly digestible and provides dogs with high-quality carbohydrates for essential energy.


Currently there is a lot of controversy regarding the use of carbohydrates in dog and cat food. We do use a patented carbohydrate blend in Eukanuba. Rice tends to give the highest spike in blood glucose, sorghum and corn result in a moderate increase in insulin levels, and barley provides the lowest increase in blood sugar levels. In our dog foods, we use grain sorghum (also called milo) and barley that minimizes swings in blood glucose, and supplies sustained energy. In our puppy food, as listed above, we use corn, rice and sorghum. The reason we use those three in our puppy foods is due to puppies activity levels- they need rice for the burst of energy that puppies have as well as corn and sorghum to sustain that energy.

We recently added Prebiotics to the majority of Eukanuba foods- since 70% of a dogs immune system in their intestines; we added Prebiotics to promote the growth of good bacteria and crowd out the bad bacteria.

Beet pulp is the material which remains after sugar is extracted from sugar beets- not red beets. We use beet pulp as a source of fiber in our foods. It is a moderately fermentable fiber that provides bulk to move waste and provides energy for cells lining the intestine, which promotes a healthier intestine.

I noticed the question of fish meal- our fish meal comes from cold water sources in the north Atlantic and far south Pacific Oceans. It is an excellent source of high-quality protein that is rich in fish oil and is a source of Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

And finally, there is the question of Chicken By-Product Meal. Chicken by-product meal may include stuff that people have a cultural aversion to eating; but that doesn't make it a bad source of protein. It is an excellent and complete source of protein because it provides each of the amino acids that are essential to good nutrition for dogs and cats. Our chicken by-product meal is muscle and internal organs (including intestines) that have been cleaned, dried, cooked, and ground.

I hope this has been of some help! It is time for me to feed the hounds....they are currently staring at me ;)


Thank you for the insightful message! But Innova and Natura dog foods are still much better foods than Iams/Eukanuba. We should keep dog foods in their respective classes. Iams/Eukanuba is considered a "supermarket" grain based dog food even though only Iams is sold in some supermarkets.

Innova and other Natura products are classed as premium and super premium dog foods (EVO and Karma).
It is really not fair to compare different classes of dog food. You have to keep things in their proper prospective. You would compare Iams/Eukanuba with Purina dog foods and Kirkland and Nutro dog foods. Where as Natura dog foods would be compared to foods like Wellness, Solid Gold, and even Orijen and Acana(EVO and Karma).
So saying that, for the class of dog food Eukanuba is in, I would say you are correct it is a good food compared to other foods in its class.

Not to change the subject, but just a little excerpt from another dog site about corn:

"Corn, wheat & soy are ingredients to stay away from.They are common allergens, not very digestable, soy& corn have been implicated in recent studies as a cause of unexplained seizures in dogs..they are nothing more then cheap fillers used by dog food companies..they really serve no purpose in a dogs diet. A good qaulity food should contain more meat then grain.Meat should be at least the first 2-3 ingredients in the food.
People buy cheap thinking they are saving money, but they aren't.Cheap dog food is false economy. The better quality the food the less you will need to feed and the less waste you'll be picking up. Some good food choices;
Canidae, Solid Gold, Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul, Wellness, Percise, premium Edge, Innova, Merrick, Fromm just to name a few."

Hello-

I recently joined this forum- and coincidentally work for The Iams Company. Anytime the topic of nutrition comes up- there is guaranteed to be a healthy debate following!

I respect everyone’s opinions and my intentions are not to stir the pot, so to speak, but I would like to answer of few of the questions I have seen in this thread. There is no one dog food that fits every dog out there. What works well for one dog may not be the best for another.

We get a lot of questions about the use of corn in our formulas. Corn is an excellent carbohydrate source. We use high-quality corn that is finely ground (breaking up the outside bran covering), and cooked. When prepared in our manufacturing facilities, corn is highly digestible and provides dogs with high-quality carbohydrates for essential energy.


Currently there is a lot of controversy regarding the use of carbohydrates in dog and cat food. We do use a patented carbohydrate blend in Eukanuba. Rice tends to give the highest spike in blood glucose, sorghum and corn result in a moderate increase in insulin levels, and barley provides the lowest increase in blood sugar levels. In our dog foods, we use grain sorghum (also called milo) and barley that minimizes swings in blood glucose, and supplies sustained energy. In our puppy food, as listed above, we use corn, rice and sorghum. The reason we use those three in our puppy foods is due to puppies activity levels- they need rice for the burst of energy that puppies have as well as corn and sorghum to sustain that energy.

We recently added Prebiotics to the majority of Eukanuba foods- since 70% of a dogs immune system in their intestines; we added Prebiotics to promote the growth of good bacteria and crowd out the bad bacteria.

Beet pulp is the material which remains after sugar is extracted from sugar beets- not red beets. We use beet pulp as a source of fiber in our foods. It is a moderately fermentable fiber that provides bulk to move waste and provides energy for cells lining the intestine, which promotes a healthier intestine.

I noticed the question of fish meal- our fish meal comes from cold water sources in the north Atlantic and far south Pacific Oceans. It is an excellent source of high-quality protein that is rich in fish oil and is a source of Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

And finally, there is the question of Chicken By-Product Meal. Chicken by-product meal may include stuff that people have a cultural aversion to eating; but that doesn't make it a bad source of protein. It is an excellent and complete source of protein because it provides each of the amino acids that are essential to good nutrition for dogs and cats. Our chicken by-product meal is muscle and internal organs (including intestines) that have been cleaned, dried, cooked, and ground.

I hope this has been of some help! It is time for me to feed the hounds....they are currently staring at me ;)

Thank You for posting this , it has been a while since RC has eaten eukanuba but when he did he did very well on it. I may get one of the formulas this winter:smile:

kathy

Is your fish meal in Eukanuba preserved with ethoxyquin? I know you don't add it to your food, but does your supplier preserve the fish meal with it before you get it?


Hello-

Sorry to hear that barley doesn't work for your Lab! This is a common question we get regarding ethoxyquin- the fish is actually immediately flash frozen upon catching, the supplier then preserves the fish meal with mixed tocopherols (a source of Vitamin E). Our over the counter foods do not contain ingredients preserved with ethoxyquin by our suppliers or us.

Take care and enjoy the weekend :-)

Hello-

Sorry to hear that barley doesn't work for your Lab! This is a common question we get regarding ethoxyquin- the fish is actually immediately flash frozen upon catching, the supplier then preserves the fish meal with mixed tocopherols (a source of Vitamin E). Our over the counter foods do not contain ingredients preserved with ethoxyquin by our suppliers or us.

Take care and enjoy the weekend :-)

Wow!!!! I am really happy to hear that. Thank you for posting the information for me. I think I still might try the Eukanuba Maintenance Formula. I know it has barley - I'm just going to see how it goes.

Nancy

Hello-

I recently joined this forum- and coincidentally work for The Iams Company. Anytime the topic of nutrition comes up- there is guaranteed to be a healthy debate following!

I respect everyone’s opinions and my intentions are not to stir the pot, so to speak, but I would like to answer of few of the questions I have seen in this thread. There is no one dog food that fits every dog out there. What works well for one dog may not be the best for another.

We get a lot of questions about the use of corn in our formulas. Corn is an excellent carbohydrate source. We use high-quality corn that is finely ground (breaking up the outside bran covering), and cooked. When prepared in our manufacturing facilities, corn is highly digestible and provides dogs with high-quality carbohydrates for essential energy.


Currently there is a lot of controversy regarding the use of carbohydrates in dog and cat food. We do use a patented carbohydrate blend in Eukanuba. Rice tends to give the highest spike in blood glucose, sorghum and corn result in a moderate increase in insulin levels, and barley provides the lowest increase in blood sugar levels. In our dog foods, we use grain sorghum (also called milo) and barley that minimizes swings in blood glucose, and supplies sustained energy. In our puppy food, as listed above, we use corn, rice and sorghum. The reason we use those three in our puppy foods is due to puppies activity levels- they need rice for the burst of energy that puppies have as well as corn and sorghum to sustain that energy.

We recently added Prebiotics to the majority of Eukanuba foods- since 70% of a dogs immune system in their intestines; we added Prebiotics to promote the growth of good bacteria and crowd out the bad bacteria.

Beet pulp is the material which remains after sugar is extracted from sugar beets- not red beets. We use beet pulp as a source of fiber in our foods. It is a moderately fermentable fiber that provides bulk to move waste and provides energy for cells lining the intestine, which promotes a healthier intestine.

I noticed the question of fish meal- our fish meal comes from cold water sources in the north Atlantic and far south Pacific Oceans. It is an excellent source of high-quality protein that is rich in fish oil and is a source of Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

And finally, there is the question of Chicken By-Product Meal. Chicken by-product meal may include stuff that people have a cultural aversion to eating; but that doesn't make it a bad source of protein. It is an excellent and complete source of protein because it provides each of the amino acids that are essential to good nutrition for dogs and cats. Our chicken by-product meal is muscle and internal organs (including intestines) that have been cleaned, dried, cooked, and ground.

I hope this has been of some help! It is time for me to feed the hounds....they are currently staring at me ;)

Thank you for joining us and providing all this info.

Are you aware that dogs draw their energy from fat (first)? Unlike humans that draw energy from carbs?

Corn, while it is a source of protein, is not a good protein (not nearly the best) source for humans or dogs. Meat protein is the best for building muscle, not to mention the organs, skin, etc. Corn is also not recommended for senior dogs who can develope kidney issues. It is not as highly digestible as people claim it to be. Quality meat protein is the best way to go for any dog (or human).

www.thebodymarket.com (in case you wonder what I know about human nutrition) (my dog food nutrition is thru 14 years of research and personal experience).

Thank you for joining us and providing all this info.

Are you aware that dogs draw their energy from fat (first)? Unlike humans that draw energy from carbs?

Corn, while it is a source of protein, is not a good protein (not nearly the best) source for humans or dogs. Meat protein is the best for building muscle, not to mention the organs, skin, etc. Corn is also not recommended for senior dogs who can develope kidney issues. It is not as highly digestible as people claim it to be. Quality meat protein is the best way to go for any dog (or human).

www.thebodymarket.com (http://www.thebodymarket.com) (in case you wonder what I know about human nutrition) (my dog food nutrition is thru 14 years of research and personal experience).


Thank you...

Thank you for joining us and providing all this info.

Are you aware that dogs draw their energy from fat (first)? Unlike humans that draw energy from carbs?

Corn, while it is a source of protein, is not a good protein (not nearly the best) source for humans or dogs. Meat protein is the best for building muscle, not to mention the organs, skin, etc. Corn is also not recommended for senior dogs who can develope kidney issues. It is not as highly digestible as people claim it to be. Quality meat protein is the best way to go for any dog (or human).

www.thebodymarket.com (http://www.thebodymarket.com) (in case you wonder what I know about human nutrition) (my dog food nutrition is thru 14 years of research and personal experience).

I never heard that corn is not recommended for senior dogs, what does corn have to do with developing kidney issues? Dogs do get energy from carbohydrates, not just fat.

In addition to providing energy, carbs maintain the health of the thyroid, liver, heart, brain and nerve tissue. They regulate how much starch and fat will be broken down and utilized. Once in the digestive tract and assimilated, they are stored in the liver in the form of glycogen, which controls energy balance. Low carb intake may cause cardiac symptoms and angina. The central nervous system requires carbohydrates for proper functioning as does the brain. The brain can't store glucose and is therefore dependent on the minimum supply of glucose from the blood. With insufficent carbs in the diet, protein and fat are converted to energy, weakening the immune system and preventing the body from building enough antibodies to fight disease. Poor hair growth and constant shedding are symptoms of carbohydrate deficiency.

Thyroid function is also dependent on the correct amount of carbohydrates in a dogs diet. B compounds found in many grains and strach producing veggies is needed so the amino acids phenylalanine and tyrosine can produce T3.
From: Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog by Wendy Volhard and Kerry Brown

Corn is an ideal ingredient when used correctly in a formula. It is 99% digestible, an excellent energy source, and one of the best natural Omega 6 fatty acid sources.

Carbohydrates are used in pet food primarily to provide energy. Energy is required for the central nervous system, normal and high levels of physical activity and is also needed when anabolic activities like gestation, lactation and growth are proceeding at a high rate. With little or no dietary carbohydrates available there is added strain on fat and protein. This extra burden on fats and proteins can cause serious problems at birthing time.(1) Judicious use of carbohydrates in a meat meal based formula, i.e. corn, not listed first on the ingredient panel is a nutritionally sound and healthy use of corn and other quality carbohydrates.

(1) Hypoglycemia prior to welping, reduced plasma concentrations, reduced number of live births, lethargy, reduced mothering ability, fetal abnormalities, embryo resorption and reduced milk production.

http://www.eaglepack.com/SP_Grains.html

Maxwell does GREAT on EVO... small, firm poops, great coat, great energy, no eye crusties or anything like that.

He does well on both the original EVO and EVO red meat... we have yet to try the fish based EVO, but we will!

Maxwell is currently eating EVO Red Meat in his kibble rotation.

Oh and another thing... Maxwell is so picky and he actually likes EVO.

Chunk... he doesn't do so well on the red meat or the original formula.. too much fat, I think. It gives him the runs. However, he does great on the reduced fat formula... small, firm stools... haven't fed it long enough to see any long term results since he's primarily raw fed though.

Oh... another thing... I have been feeding EVO off and on since Maxwell has been 18 months on... it will NOT put weight on him, despite the high fat content and feeding more than the bag recommends.. don't ask me why. :confused:

I have seen so many reports about corn, pro and con, in dog food it is mind boggling.

The majority of all reports is that corn is an unnecessary ingredient in dog food and is basically used as a filler and a binding agent to hold the kibble together. Its nutritional value is negligible. And as stated over and over again, can cause problems in some dogs, some problems severe.
So why take a chance feeding a food with corn as an ingredient when there are so many negative views about using it in dog food. Like stated over and over again, it is used because it is cheap and keeps the price of the food low so people will buy it.

You see so many breeders and veterinary nutritionists state to buy a food that is corn, wheat and soy free. Can they all be wrong??

I have seen so many reports about corn, pro and con, in dog food it is mind boggling.

The majority of all reports is that corn is an unnecessary ingredient in dog food and is basically used as a filler and a binding agent to hold the kibble together. Its nutritional value is negligible. And as stated over and over again, can cause problems in some dogs, some problems severe.
So why take a chance feeding a food with corn as an ingredient when there are so many negative views about using it in dog food. Like stated over and over again, it is used because it is cheap and keeps the price of the food low so people will buy it.

You see so many breeders and veterinary nutritionists state to buy a food that is corn, wheat and soy free. Can they all be wrong??

"The majority of all reports is that corn is an unnecessary ingredient..."
What reports?

"Its nutritional value is negligible...."
Where are you reading this? Can you back up this statement with something scientific or proven?

"And as stated over and over again, can cause problems in some dogs, some problems severe. So why take a chance feeding a food with corn as an ingredient..."
Any ingredient can cause problems in some dogs. Beef rates right up there with chicken as being a problem ingredient for a lot dogs so why take a chance feeding it?

Corn is not cheap.

Bearsowner, if you provided references for your emotional statements that were backed by science (or a respected source) and not just opinion, you might be more convincing. Why do you care if Joe Blow feeds a food that has corn in it anyway? Feed what you want and be happy. Obviously it bothers you what other people feed. I don't have any problems with corn in dog food and I think it can be beneficial, but I don't berate you for not feeding it.

I am not going to get into this again.

Isn't this a forum to exchange ideas and experience about dog food and to learn from others??

The fact is you are going to tout the food you are feeding and think it's the best, only human nature to do so. If your feeding Pro Plan with corn, you're not going to tell everyone its a terrible food.

Yes what I state are facts that I have read all over the web and told me by the vets I have used over the years. There was a time when it was very hard to find a dog food made without corn, but as nutritionists found that many allergies and intolerance were caused by corn, wheat and soy, some dog food companies started up making food without these ingredients to the benefit of many dogs who were suffering eating dog food made with them.

If you want to feed a lower grade food made with corn that is your business, but others should that food without corn, wheat or soy is much better nutritionally for your dog.

I never heard that corn is not recommended for senior dogs, what does corn have to do with developing kidney issues? Dogs do get energy from carbohydrates, not just fat.

Doppler, please do your research before you post. You have no knowledge of this obviously.

Corn is a filler. It may have protein but it is not nearly as good a source as meat protein. Senior dogs that have or may develope kidney issues need quality protein to keep their kidneys functioning. That quality protein does not come from corn but from good "quality" "meat" protein. Corn is much harder to digest than "quality meat protein"

When you have dealt with a KF dog and have experience with this (as I do) than talk to me. (just like your "tipped vulva" (RV) experience that I called you on in another thread that you never bothered to respond to).

Do your research first. I have been researching dog food for over 14 years and even have a source that did a dissertation in college on canine nutrition who agrees with me. Or should I say backs up my theory/experience.

you can post all you want from dog food companies that claim corn is a quality source of protein but its crap.

If I had relied on corn as my protein source to build muscle to compete in body building I would have never accomplished what I did. And don't tell me dogs are far off because they aren't.

Dogs: utilize meat protein to build muscle, fat for energy, carbs don't get used much at all, its minimal (its a back up but a poor source)

Humans; utilize meat for protein to build muscle, carbs for energy, if not enough "meat" protein is provided they burn their own muscle for energy.

Just like a dog will do if not provided the proper amount of "meat" protein.

You have also put your 2 cents in on many of the threads on the breeder section in the past and I have always wondered about you. Do you breed? No one on this board has any way of knowing because you reveal very little about yourself.

Yet you come on threads like this and question people who have years of knowledge.

How long have you been researching canine nutrition and dog food? How long have you been raising Labs or any breed of dog for that matter?

The other question I have is are you male or female? Your profile says very little about you (at least the last time I bothered to look..............)

My lips are sealed...

I am not going to get into this again.

Isn't this a forum to exchange ideas and experience about dog food and to learn from others??

The fact is you are going to tout the food you are feeding and think it's the best, only human nature to do so. If your feeding Pro Plan with corn, you're not going to tell everyone its a terrible food.

Yes what I state are facts that I have read all over the web and told me by the vets I have used over the years. There was a time when it was very hard to find a dog food made without corn, but as nutritionists found that many allergies and intolerance were caused by corn, wheat and soy, some dog food companies started up making food without these ingredients to the benefit of many dogs who were suffering eating dog food made with them.

If you want to feed a lower grade food made with corn that is your business, but others should that food without corn, wheat or soy is much better nutritionally for your dog.

What current experience do you have with feeding corn? If you haven't recently used corn then what can we learn from your input against it???

I do not feed corn at the present time and I have been feeding grain-free for 3 years with the exception of a few months when I did feed PP Performance to see what effects it had on my dog. I'm about to get off grain free and try it again. It takes a lot of nerve to state "facts" about me when you never have asked me what food I do feed.

You claim that you state "facts" that you "have read all over the web" yet you have not provided us with one reference that is fact, only opinion. I'm scientifically minded and amazed how some people will believe anything just because they read it on the web. What nutritionists have named corn as a major source of allergies??? I'm opened minded but you never provide anything credible for me to consider.

What current experience do you have with feeding corn? If you haven't recently used corn then what can we learn from your input against it???

I do not feed corn at the present time and I have been feeding grain-free for 3 years with the exception of a few months when I did feed PP Performance to see what effects it had on my dog. I'm about to get off grain free and try it again. It takes a lot of nerve to state "facts" about me when you never have asked me what food I do feed.

You claim that you state "facts" that you "have read all over the web" yet you have not provided us with one reference that is fact, only opinion. I'm scientifically minded and amazed how some people will believe anything just because they read it on the web. What nutritionists have named corn as a major source of allergies??? I'm opened minded but you never provide anything credible for me to consider.

I think you should really direct that rant to Patty/Breeder...sorry not taking the bait...;)

My lips are sealed...

LOL. I would bet Dopplers lips are at this point too. He/she tends to disappear when confronted.

Although let he/her bring it on if they can back up their "corn" etc. theory. Which I know they can't. Other than info from dog food companies touting the benefits of corn in their dog food.

:popcorn: watching this thread all afternoon..

Doppler, please do your research before you post. You have no knowledge of this obviously.

Corn is a filler. It may have protein but it is not nearly as good a source as meat protein. Senior dogs that have or may develope kidney issues need quality protein to keep their kidneys functioning. That quality protein does not come from corn but from good "quality" "meat" protein. Corn is much harder to digest than "quality meat protein"

When you have dealt with a KF dog and have experience with this (as I do) than talk to me. (just like your "tipped vulva" (RV) experience that I called you on in another thread that you never bothered to respond to).

Do your research first. I have been researching dog food for over 14 years and even have a source that did a dissertation in college on canine nutrition who agrees with me. Or should I say backs up my theory/experience.

you can post all you want from dog food companies that claim corn is a quality source of protein but its crap.

If I had relied on corn as my protein source to build muscle to compete in body building I would have never accomplished what I did. And don't tell me dogs are far off because they aren't.

Dogs: utilize meat protein to build muscle, fat for energy, carbs don't get used much at all, its minimal (its a back up but a poor source)

Humans; utilize meat for protein to build muscle, carbs or energy, if not enough is provided they burn their own muscle for energy.

Just like a dog will do if not provided the proper amount of "meat" protein.

You have also put your 2 cents in on many of the threads on the breeder section in the past and I have always wondered about you. Do you breed? No one on this board has any way of knowing because you reveal very little about yourself.

Yet you come on threads like this and question people who have years of knowledge.

How long have you been researching canine nutrition and dog food? How long have you been raising Labs or any breed of dog for that matter?

The other question I have is are you male or female? Your profile says very little about you (at least the last time I bothered to look..............)

Corn is not a filler and your post is filled with opinion, maybe you should do some more research or start using "IMO". I am not the topic of this thread and you didn't answer my question. Who recommends that senior dogs shouldn't have corn and what does eating corn have to do with developing kidney issues???

FWIW I did answer you about my experience with having a dog with a tipped vulva. (called me out on? :rolleyes:)

I haven't been on in a while and I am not going to read 4 whole pages about this... but how in the world did opinions on EVO (which contains no corn) turn into tug of war about corn?

I think you should really direct that rant to Patty/Breeder...sorry not taking the bait...;)

I didn't think so.

[QUOTE=Doppler;1964336692]Corn is not a filler and your post is filled with opinion, maybe you should do some more research or start using "IMO". I am not the topic of this thread and you didn't answer my question. Who recommends that senior dogs shouldn't have corn and what does eating corn have to do with developing kidney issues???

FWIW I did answer you about my experience with having a dog with a tipped vulva. (called me out on? :rolleyes:)[/QUOTE\

You may have mentioned your "tipped vulva" but I posted again and you dissappeared because I have much more experience in that field than you do. And trust me I am not proud of it. I wish I haden't had all the RV experience but I have turned my problems/experience into a source for others to learn from which is obvious in the RV sticky in the "health" section.

Don't even go there with me because you will not win!

As for corn not being a filler. Do a comparison on the web as to protein sources compairing meat to corn. Its easy enough - even a child can do it.

here is one source about using proper "meat" "quality" protein for KF dogs. You can go from there. I am done with you because you have been on this board with a lot of head butting posts (to other members as well) from day one.

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/proteins-kidneys-senior-dogs/

www.dogaware.com is quoted there and a wonderful source.

Do your dogs a favor and keep an open mind. If I had believed (in 2003) that corn was a good source of protein I would hate to think how my KF dog would have suffered in her last years to age 16. I researched and learned and got her on quality food without corn as the main source of protein and she did great for her remaining years, after her KF diagnosis.

I didn't think so.

You already did direct it at me. Now you have to deal with it.

You already did direct it at me. Now you have to deal with it.

Oh brother. My post to Bearsowner was not directed to you.

Oh brother. My post to Bearsowner was not directed to you.

No but your post quoting me was.

So?????............ Bring it on know it all.............

So?????............ Bring it on know it all.............

I somehow knew, Patty, you'd have plenty to say at some point. It's so nice to hear actual facts from someone who's experienced situations you can voice discussion about.

I don't have experience with corn either way; all I can say is has anyone else ever taken note on what all corn IS used for?? There are several situations in which corn has become involved in something, and not always in a good way.

I can't ever image corn being considered as true of a protein source as meat; otherwise Zoo keepers nation-wide would be using it in their food supply in an abundance you couldn't imagine.

Corn is not a filler and your post is filled with opinion, maybe you should do some more research or start using "IMO". I am not the topic of this thread and you didn't answer my question. Who recommends that senior dogs shouldn't have corn and what does eating corn have to do with developing kidney issues???

FWIW I did answer you about my experience with having a dog with a tipped vulva. (called me out on? :rolleyes:)[/QUOTE\

You may have mentioned your "tipped vulva" but I posted again and you dissappeared because I have much more experience in that field than you do. And trust me I am not proud of it. I wish I haden't had all the RV experience but I have turned my problems/experience into a source for others to learn from which is obvious in the RV sticky in the "health" section.

Don't even go there with me because you will not win!

As for corn not being a filler. Do a comparison on the web as to protein sources compairing meat to corn. Its easy enough - even a child can do it.

here is one source about using proper "meat" "quality" protein for KF dogs. You can go from there. I am done with you because you have been on this board with a lot of head butting posts (to other members as well) from day one.

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/proteins-kidneys-senior-dogs/

www.dogaware.com (http://www.dogaware.com) is quoted there and a wonderful source.

Do your dogs a favor and keep an open mind. If I had believed (in 2003) that corn was a good source of protein I would hate to think how my KF dog would have suffered in her last years to age 16. I researched and learned and got her on quality food without corn as the main source of protein and she did great for her remaining years, after her KF diagnosis.

Once again Patty, the topic isn't Doppler. If you don't have a direct answer to my question don't direct me to read your links and expect me to extrapolate a conclusion that will back up your statement.

I never said corn was a better protein source compared to meat, I don't know why your flying off about that.

Knowledge can come from formal schooling and it can come from experience or a combination of both. Experience can lead one to the wrong conclusions. A simple example: Someone states, I have tried 5 different foods that have chicken in them and my dog is always scratching, has diarrhea and dirty ears. I changed food to CN L&R and all his symptoms have disappeared. I have come to the conclusion that my dog is allergic to chicken. This dog could be allergic to chicken but all 5 foods that were tried also had another ingredient (maybe flaxseed) that could be responsible for his reactions.


Don't even go there with me because you will not win!
[QUOTE]Now you have to deal with it.I am done with you.
What kind of talk is this? If you make broad statements that you can't back up, don't get upset when someone questions you. Tough talk and personally attacking me might make you feel better but the price you pay for your bad behavior is loss of respect.

Tough talk and personally attacking me might make you feel better but the price you pay for your bad behavior is loss of respect.

Not a chance, Doppler.

Sorry, while you have had excellent points to make that have assisted to everyone on the board, you have also had your fair share of tough talk/attacking people as well, which doesn't hold any more respect for you or your bad behavior either.

I DO happen to hold a lot of respect towards Patty cause for one she IS a breeder and has probably seen more of her fair share of what she speaks about versus others, myself included.

Not a chance, Doppler.

Sorry, while you have had excellent points to make that have assisted to everyone on the board, you have also had your fair share of tough talk/attacking people as well, which doesn't hold any more respect for you or your bad behavior either.

I DO happen to hold a lot of respect towards Patty cause for one she IS a breeder and has probably seen more of her fair share of what she speaks about versus others, myself included.

You're entitled to your opinion and while I've had my snotty moments I never jumped on someone for asking a question. I know a lot of "breeders" that have produced countless numbers of puppies over many years but they don't all warrant my respect.

[QUOTE=Patty/Breeder;1964336729]

Once again Patty, the topic isn't Doppler. If you don't have a direct answer to my question don't direct me to read your links and expect me to extrapolate a conclusion that will back up your statement.


I never said corn was a better protein source compared to meat, I don't know why your flying off about that.

Knowledge can come from formal schooling and it can come from experience or a combination of both. Experience can lead one to the wrong conclusions. A simple example: Someone states, I have tried 5 different foods that have chicken in them and my dog is always scratching, has diarrhea and dirty ears. I changed food to CN L&R and all his symptoms have disappeared. I have come to the conclusion that my dog is allergic to chicken. This dog could be allergic to chicken but all 5 foods that were tried also had another ingredient (maybe flaxseed) that could be responsible for his reactions.


What kind of talk is this? If you make broad statements that you can't back up, don't get upset when someone questions you. Tough talk and personally attacking me might make you feel better but the price you pay for your bad behavior is loss of respect.

forgive me what was your question that i did not directly answer?

well heck you did say corn was okay and I disagreed with you and gave my reasons why. (it is not a good source of protein) You asked specifically about KF and I told you why
[B]What broad statement did I make that I did not back up?

This has nothing to do with tough talk or attacking you. Your attitude needs to change and that has been apparent, on and off, since you joined the board.

I personally see no bad behavior on my part and "trust me" I have absolutely no worries about my loss of respect on this board.

Perhaps you are confusing me with yourself where respect is concerned?

You're entitled to your opinion and while I've had my snotty moments I never jumped on someone for asking a question. I know a lot of "breeders" that have produced countless numbers of puppies over many years but they don't all warrant my respect.

You're right, you've never jumped on someone for *asking* a question, but let anyone respond to a question, and that's where you've come in at. It seems that, not while all the time, but most the time, only your answer is the correct one, no one else can ever actually be allowed to respond if it's against what you believe.

The thing is today, as I stated somewhere else on here, there are so many foods available without corn, wheat or soy, why take the chance feeding these unnecessary ingredients if so many people have found out that they are questionable ingredients?

Years ago almost all dog food contained corn. One dog I had many, many years ago always had this gook in her eyes, so bad each day I would have to wash her eyes out with warm water. Who knew it was the food? Back then dog food was dog food, end of story.
Before that back in the 50's when I was a kid, buying dog food was unheard of, at least in my family, lol. The dog ate what we ate, always everyday we had leftovers for the dog. He loved spaghetti and home made meatballs and sausage! That dog never was sick a day in his life, he was a mutt and lived to about 14 I think. When I got married we got a dog and fed whatever we could find in the supermarket on sale. Every food available back then was made with corn, soon the dog had all kinds of problems. This is the dog with the gook in her eyes, she also itched all the time and had on and off diarhhea. I took her to the vet and all he said was she was allergic to something she is eating or is in your house, $20 please. (Back then $20 was like $100 today). What I did was stop all store bought dog food and starting feed her table food, my wife starting making a little extra food for supper and the dog ate what we ate. Within about a week, the dog's problems were gone, eyes cleared up, itching had just about ceased. Now back then, corn was the #1 ingredient in almost all dog foods with a little meat thrown in. She ate the same meat we ate which was the same meat in the dog food, no problems. Since then I vowed never to feed a dog corn and now through research pet nutrionists have found that corn is really not good for a dog and serves no useful purpose except as a cheap filler to bind the kibble together.

You're right, you've never jumped on someone for *asking* a question, but let anyone respond to a question, and that's where you've come in at. It seems that, not while all the time, but most the time, only your answer is the correct one, no one else can ever actually be allowed to respond if it's against what you believe.

Good lord, you know that can be said about SEVERAL members on here that has a strong philosophy on dog nutrition. Bring up corn and people start pounding their chest like they have the only answer.

Oh well........this will continue as long as the board allows it. Time to do something fun. I'm headed out on a hike with my buddy at a local nature trail. Might even take a few pics.

But Bearsowner, how do you know it was the corn in the food causing these issues? It could have been that or any number of things - maybe just one or a combination. I agree corn is not for every dog and if there is a problem then avoid it. If there isn't and it is not the first ingredient in a dog food then I'm not sure I see a problem. I'm going to transition Charlie to Eukanuba Maintenance. Yes it has corn meal. If there is a problem and I find out it's the corn you better believe we're switching to something else. However, Charlie's breeder does feed this food to her line and her dogs are gorgeous so I'll just have to see how it goes.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience with it.

Nancy

Oh and Eagle Pack has a big page about corn on their website. They use it in their foods (not the holistic line).

But Bearsowner, how do you know it was the corn in the food causing these issues? It could have been that or any number of things - maybe just one or a combination. I agree corn is not for every dog and if there is a problem then avoid it. If there isn't and it is not the first ingredient in a dog food then I'm not sure I see a problem. I'm going to transition Charlie to Eukanuba Maintenance. Yes it has corn meal. If there is a problem and I find out it's the corn you better believe we're switching to something else. However, Charlie's breeder does feed this food to her line and her dogs are gorgeous so I'll just have to see how it goes.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience with it.

Nancy

Oh and Eagle Pack has a big page about corn on their website. They use it in their foods (not the holistic line).

Why not the holisitic line if corn is okay for dogs? They could use it in that food and probably sell it for a cheaper price taking out the good binders of the kibble, whatever they use.

Anyway found a store that has the NEW EVO Herring and Salmon in stock, going to get a bag to use as a topper for the dogs Innova food. About an 1/8th to 1/4 of cup should do it.

As far as what MSDogs said, I speak from experience and Nancy, the only ingredient that could of caused the problems was corn. It was the predominate ingredient in the foods I was feeding the dogs. Like I said, back then Corn was the #1 ingredient in most dog foods.

Right and I think that is an issue - corn should never be the number one ingredient - ever. Further down the line is okay preferably not in the first 5 ingredients, but that's not the way it is in Eukanuba. It is third in the food I'm thinking of which I'm not thirlled about, but am willing to try.

I don't know - if Eagle Pack was having a lot of issues with corn in their regular line I think they would have removed it. They're are pretty reputable company. I know they were bought out recently, but I believe the previous owner would have taken corn out if it was such an issue.

If Pukanuba is all you can afford, then I would suppose it is better than nothing at all...



By all means if one doesn't feel comfortable feeding a feed then don't. If your dog(s) don't do well or you dislike the ingredients or you just flat out don't trust the company well by all means don't feed such.. I certainly would never codemn anyone for doing so.

However, bearsowner, it's statements such as above I really find unecessary AND offensive but if it makes you feel better then so be it.

I'm with the poster above. It's a gorgeous day outside so it's time to head out for some training in the field.

MSDogs1976 - where have I actually stated an opinion on corn?....if you read in my thread, I have actually stated several times that I will be adding corn to my dogs diet to see if there is good or bad results.

It will be fresh corn though.

Also agree with you, in the fact that nearly every member to this forum has a strong opinion on what is or is not acceptable. Truth be told, dogs AND humans can eat anything and survive; so again, why are any of us here.....I'm just as bad and never said I wasn't.

Seems though, even if someone mentions *anything* god-forbid if it's not something someone else agrees with.

Like I mentioned in the Purina Salmon selects thread, sometimes it's just easier to agree with the majority, even if you don't agree; cause if someone even mentions something against the grain holy-grail comes down. Really though, newcomers don't come here to hear that one food feeds all; but it seems should someone be feeding or recommending something different then Purina, then all heck comes down the pipe.

The forum really should have a sticky that says 90% of owners feed Purina with excellent results, which is ok, there's nothing wrong with that. This way though, if new members come in, they can go right to that sticky and not have to ask questions for differences of opinion.

Again, I have nothing against Purina; but they are more expensive then other foods within the same quality.

All of us really should take breathers, and just let it go....like I mentioned before, I currently have a friend feeding Ole Roy cause he has no other financial choice, am I going to stop being his friend???? Heck no - his dog is otherwise cared for in every other way, he's doing the best he can and at least he can feed an amount his dog requires.

Which is more then even what I can do right now.

My only complaint is in the fact that someone can't even mention a difference of opinion when it comes to any kind of food; if it's not Purina, it's not welcomed here, seems to be the feeling I've gotten from day one.

I haven't read every post in this growing thread but I'll add our reason for avoiding corn- quantity of 'out go'! :-) With corn as a binder our dogs leave us lots and lots of 'presents'. Without corn our dog duty, LOL, is not as onerous. So we avoid corn.

But any food can cause problems for specific dogs. We fed Nutro Lamb and Rice for many many years with no serious or obvious side effects. The dogs we had on it lived to 13 or so in good health. I'd call that food a middle of the road feed- neither best nor worst. After dealing with osteosarcoma we switched to grain free or mostly grain free for our remaining pack. Zeke, the itching wonder, CAN NOT tolerate TOTW Pacific Stream or Prairie. Go figure. That food was recommended by the vet as a good allergy food. Now we'll try EVO Salmon and see how that works for him. He LOVES Natural Planet Organics, has almost stopped itching, but we can't keep weight on him no matter how much we feed- so back to the search. (and believe me we've tried MANY foods)

There are PLENTY of really good, high quality dog foods on the market today. If you find one or two that you like, your dogs like, and you can afford- do the happy dance and feed it no matter what anyone else feeds!

Patty --- Thank you sooo much for sharing your knowledge on health and nutrition. I appreciate it -- THANK YOU!!!!

The fact that growth in the Pet Food industry is in the high end foods show the public is becoming aware of the inferior products being sold today...

Who is to blame for that ? If not for all the re-calls the public would not be supporting Orijen, Natura, Wellness, Horizon, or Fromm Family products...

from reading Ann Martin's book...food pets die for ... it is not corn in of itself...but the quality of it....Today corn is used in many foods, gasoline, weed prevention, and many others...The corn that gets sold to the " Diamonds" of the Pet Food industry is rejected corn and sold to its only market..Pet Food...

Nice fresh corn recently harvested will not harm your dog....Corn sitting around in trucks develop molds that survive cooking and can harm your dogs liver...Doppler will say rice can do the same....so it then boils down to the company..Do they buy human grade ingredients...or Pet Quality ingredients to use in their foods....??

MSDogs1976 - where have I actually stated an opinion on corn?....if you read in my thread, I have actually stated several times that I will be adding corn to my dogs diet to see if there is good or bad results.

The forum really should have a sticky that says 90% of owners feed Purina with excellent results, which is ok, there's nothing wrong with that. This way though, if new members come in, they can go right to that sticky and not have to ask questions for differences of opinion.



You must have a guilty conscience as I never said you stated an opinion on corn, I said SEVERAL members fit the description you gave doppler. As far as Purina goes, it's funny how we see things. I would have said 90% of the people here must feed Natura products because that is what I see discussed here the most.

A very nice walk this morning. Here is one pic from the trail. Picture not too good due to the early morning light. But he had a good time.:)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a274/MSDOGS1976/Micah035.jpg

http://usera.ImageCave.com/jmitch006/park4.jpghttp://usera.ImageCave.com/jmitch006/park2.jpg

A very nice walk this morning. Here is one pic from the trail. Picture not too good due to the early morning light. But he had a good time.:)



Nice photo, thought it was always warm in Mississippi, but see you have change of seasons with leaves coming down.

Here some photos of Bear and the area where we live in Northwestern New Jersey, thats Waywayanda State Park:

Man...I wish we had all those trees!

Do you guys completely turn your dogs lose? Aren't you worried they'd run off? I don't have that courage yet, to completely turn Rivers lose, I'd like to, but I'm too worried he'll spot something and be gone.

MSDOGS - Natura is probably what you see discussed the most, cause it's probably what most people have had an experience with, whether it was good or bad.

I did have the dogs all checked out and several hundred dollars later found out there was absolutely nothing wrong with them that a change of food wouldn't solve. Went back to ProPlan and voila! Dogs in great shape again with no problems with stool, coat, ears, etc.

The thing is you cannot compare Purina, Iams/Eukanuba products to Natura products. They are not even close to being in the same class as Natura foods.

You can compare them if the others don't work. I don't care what class a food is, if it doesn't work for my dogs then it's not a good food. What works for my dogs is the best food....period.

Remember YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. YOU PAY LESS, YOU GET LESS.



This is such BS. When it comes to my dogs, money is no object. I would gladly pay whatever if it kept them healthy. They do best on a less expensive food.

So according to your absurd reasoning, I should disregard that fact and not only spend more money on food, but more on the vet bills since my dogs' health will deteriorate on this more expensive food.

Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense.

*insert rolling eyes*

Nice photo, thought it was always warm in Mississippi, but see you have change of seasons with leaves coming down.



Nice pics. We go through a change of seasons. Another week and the trees really will be colorful. We get a little winter too. Mainly Jan-Feb. Sometimes mild during those months, but it can get below zero on rare occasions. Here's a pic from a couple of winters ago with my old golden.:cry:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a274/MSDOGS1976/snow003.jpg



Man...I wish we had all those trees!

Do you guys completely turn your dogs lose? Aren't you worried they'd run off? I don't have that courage yet, to completely turn Rivers lose, I'd like to, but I'm too worried he'll spot something and be gone.

I could let my golden run free as she would stay with me, but not my new buddy. I did here just for a few minutes but we have a long way to go in letting him run free.

I don't feel so bad then...I've felt terrible in not allowing Rivers to run completely lose, but I'm so afraid of him getting excited, startled, etc and up and be gone!

He has a high prey drive too, which scares me.

Thanks to all that responded regarding the EVO question :)....Ill keep everyone posted on how hes doing when we switch over...Probably sometime next month or so. And to everyone else you are/were very entertaining......Oh and dogs DO get there energy from FAT. ;)

Labby - I seriously believe a lot of it is dogs were brought up to be scavengers, eating what ever was available, not always a full decent meal. Thus many dogs don't do good on a full rich meal such as Evo for every meal.

With my gang, they'll get a rich, full meal for one meal out of the day, their 2nd meal is just what ever scraps I have, literally.

My g-ma's dogs were fed that way too; lived to well into their early 20's - none of them ever ate dog food in general.

I do believe some of the high quality foods are just too rich as everyday meals for 90% of dogs. Perhaps on a rotation, say for one meal out of the day, they'd be ok...but not for every meal, every day.

Man...I wish we had all those trees!

Do you guys completely turn your dogs lose? Aren't you worried they'd run off? I don't have that courage yet, to completely turn Rivers lose, I'd like to, but I'm too worried he'll spot something and be gone.

Woofie, there are certain parts of the park you can let your dog run free, but in most of the park your dog must be leashed for many reasons. Bear took off once and chased a deer, took off like a bat out of you know where, scared the heck out of me, but he found me after about 5 or so minutes, he was huffin and puffin. What we have to watch out for though is actual bears, they are plentiful up here, black bears, they normally are harmless and just as scared of you as you are of them, but they will defend themselves if attacked or with a female, if her cubs are in danger. Dogs and bears do not mix, and usually the bear wins.

Thanks to all that responded regarding the EVO question :)....Ill keep everyone posted on how hes doing when we switch over...Probably sometime next month or so. And to everyone else you are/were very entertaining......Oh and dogs DO get there energy from FAT. ;)

;)

I agree with you Woofie. It comes down to feeding what works. It didn't work for us....I don't feed it. ;)

Thanks to all that responded regarding the EVO question :)....Ill keep everyone posted on how hes doing when we switch over...Probably sometime next month or so. And to everyone else you are/were very entertaining......Oh and dogs DO get there energy from FAT. ;)


LOL!!! :D

Some of you seem to know more about dog nutrition than what has been proven by science. ;) Dogs do get their energy from fat but they also get energy from carbohydrates and protein. Page 5 (copied below) of this document titled Your Dog's Nutritional Needs is put out by the National Research Council of the National Academies. http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf


ENERGY NEEDS
Dogs need a certain amount of energy to sustain the normal activities of their daily
lives. Growth, pregnancy, lactation, and exercise all increase these normal energy
requirements. Generally measured in terms of calories, energy comes from three
major dietary components: carbohydrates, protein, and fats.

Omnivorous animals get some of their energy from carbohydrates, which include
sugars, starches, and dietary fibers. The major sources of carbohydrates in commercial
dog foods are cereals, legumes, and other plant foodstuffs. So-called
absorbable carbohydrates, including glucose and fructose, can be directly absorbed
and do not need to be digested by enzymes. Digestible carbohydrates are readily
broken down by intestinal tract enzymes. Fermentable carbohydrates include
certain starches and dietary fibers that pass undigested through the small intestine
to the colon, where they are fermented by microbes into short-chain fatty
acids and gases. Some studies suggest that fermentable fibers may aid in the
regulation of blood glucose concentrations and enhance immune function.
Nonfermentable fibers, such as cellulose and wheat bran, contribute little in
terms of energy or nutrition and are primarily used to decrease caloric intake of
the overweight animal





For more than 80 years, the National Academies has fostered improved
understanding of the nutritional needs of pets, wildlife, laboratoryresearch
species, and food-producing animals through its Nutrient
Requirements of Domestic Animals series—a series that is considered the
“gold standard” for animal nutrition in the United States and worldwide.
This pamphlet is based on recommendations from the
2006 release of Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats.
The report contains useful information for companion
animal nutritionists, veterinarians, scientists in industry
and academe, regulators, pet owners and anyone with
an interest in the health and welfare of these important
animals. To order the report, contact the National
Academies Press, 500 Fifth Street NW, Washington, DC
20001; (800) 624-6242 or http://www.nap.edu (http://www.nap.edu/).



For those inclined to learn more, this LINK (http://books.google.com/books?id=aqeCwxbRWvsC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=bl&ots=Lze2tRwAvQ&sig=WysKlwkW5PWmM1Ql6GreymtkVNw&hl=en&ei=JCX3SrP-M9Gg8Abl2_XzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bl&f=false) will take you to (most of) the chapter on carbohydrates from Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats mentioned above. I have this book and the link I posted is only missing a few pages! Chapter 4 (Carbohydrates and Fiber) starts on page 49, you have to go to page 51 at the top of the linked page to start reading. This chapter discusses the effects of carbohydrates and fiber on Geriatric Nutrition, Reproductive Performance, Immune Function etc.

The fact is that dogs draw their prime energy from fat so therefore it is important in the diet. While carbs are not a staple in a dogs diet they will utilize it if there is no other source of energy (0r other stores are used up) It does not mean that carbs are a good source for dogs. Try feeding a food with mostly carbs and most dogs will have huge stools and poor coat because the carbs are not utilized and pass right thru the body (thus the large stools) and the lack of fat effects the coat, lack of protein causes muscle atrophy in the long run.

Humans draw their prime energy from carbs. If humans don't eat enough carbs to sustain them during work or exercise than their bodies will turn to protein or whatever they are eating. This protein use for energy in turn draws the protein away from doing its job to support muscle - not a good thing. If humans don't eat enough for energy than the body draws on stored muscle which is even worse.

Same goes for dogs. If there is not enough fat in the diet of an active dog they will draw on other sources which can effect muslce (which is important for bone, tendon, ligament and joint health, etc)

For those interested I want to share info with you that someone shared with me, a college student who did her dissertation on canine nutrition: I have emailed her for permission and hoping she will join us here. I will post the info when I hear back from her.

There are only two times dogs "need " carbohydrates ..Pregnant and nursing mothers, and very young puppies....

If dogs needed more carbs their gut would be longer... but seeing they evolved from the Wolf they do not...

The White paper put together by Champion references some greats in the Pet Food research world....


http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf
• According to Dr. David S. Kronfeld,
carbohydrates need not be supplied to adult
dogs, even those working hard as the liver is
easily able to synthesize sufficient glucose
(from protein and fats).


http://www.petfoodindustry.com/viewarticle.aspx?id=13560
Dr. Kronfeld may not be as familiar as the other two within the petfood industry, but he was a virtual giant in the field of veterinary nutrition. He was one of only 18 Charter Diplomates in the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) when it was formed in the late 1980s.

Much of Dr. Kronfeld's work in later years at Virginia Tech focused on equine nutrition, but his contributions to the field of canine nutrition, especially in regard to the feeding of sled dogs, cannot be underestimated. To borrow from an old country western song, he "was ‘low carb' when ‘low carb' wasn't cool."

His frequent participation in many discussions on both the ACVN and American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition E-mail listserves speaks to his knowledge on a vast array of nutrition topics.

One of my clearest memories of Dr. Kronfeld was a time when we were eating lunch together with a few other colleagues at a veterinary meeting. I was a mere graduate student and eager to learn. However, of all the potential topics we could have talked about, our discussion kept going back to whose menu choice was better, his or mine. While I didn't appreciate it at the time, he was really engaging me in the Socratic method of learning. This means of critical thinking through dialogue has proven helpful to me through the years, regardless of subject matter.

More information about Dr. Kronfeld's life and contributions to the field may be found at www.vetmed.vt.edu/publications/vitalsigns/feb07/index.asp#kron.

Uplander,while I too have read that pregnant bitches and small pups need carbs I don't agree with that. My last litter my bitch was on Orijen LPB and her pups are raised on it. All did and doing great.

I know other breeders doing this for years before I started.

Thanks for posting the info from Champion. Glad to see we are on the same page.

While I feed Orijen and love Champions products because I like the way they do things I would still recommend them even if I did not feed their food. My dogs do well on it but if things continue with the economy I may have to switch food for money reasons but would still highly recommend their products. As well as Natura products. My dogs did very well on CN years ago and my moms 13 year old is still on it. Although she does get added protein to her meals daily. (meat scraps from our meals)

I'm not debating whether or not carbohydrates are necessary for a dog, or if meat protein is superior to the protein in corn. I simply asked a question and stated (a fact) that dogs can get energy from carbohydrates. Here is exactly what I posted (post #37):
I never heard that corn is not recommended for senior dogs, what does corn have to do with developing kidney issues? Dogs do get energy from carbohydrates, not just fat.
I asked a question and followed with a statement. My statement is true but Patty seems to feel differently. Quote by Patty post #42:
Doppler, please do your research before you post. You have no knowledge of this obviously.
I plan on trying Eukanuba and I have a senior dog. I don't recall seeing any warnings that corn shouldn't be fed to seniors or that doing so would cause my senior to develop kidney issues. Quote by Patty post #35: Corn is also not recommended for senior dogs who can develope kidney issues.
I asked my question two times (post 37 & 48) Who recommends that senior dogs shouldn't have corn and what does eating corn have to do with developing kidney issues???
My question has still not been answered.

Uplander,while I too have read that pregnant bitches and small pups need carbs I don't agree with that. My last litter my bitch was on Orijen LPB and her pups are raised on it. All did and doing great.

Orijen is not carb free so your experience does not back up your belief that pregnant bitches don't need carbs. Grain free does not mean carb free.

Correct Doppler, but if u take note; Orijen next to Evo has the least amount of carb's of any dry dog food. I don't think patty was talking about elimintaing them entirely from her pup's diets.

sorry for any mishaps/spelling errors - my hand got caught in my sisters engine while trying to repair her serpentine belt last night; broke 2 fingers, ripped end off one too.

Ouch (fingers).

Correct Doppler, but if u take note; Orijen next to Evo has the least amount of carb's of any dry dog food. I don't think patty was talking about elimintaing them entirely from her pup's diets.

sorry for any mishaps/spelling errors - my hand got caught in my sisters engine while trying to repair her serpentine belt last night; broke 2 fingers, ripped end off one too.


Exactly.

Hope your fingers heal quickly. Ouch is right.

I'm not debating whether or not carbohydrates are necessary for a dog, or if meat protein is superior to the protein in corn. I simply asked a question and stated (a fact) that dogs can get energy from carbohydrates. Here is exactly what I posted (post #37):

I asked a question and followed with a statement. My statement is true but Patty seems to feel differently. Quote by Patty post #42:

I plan on trying Eukanuba and I have a senior dog. I don't recall seeing any warnings that corn shouldn't be fed to seniors or that doing so would cause my senior to develop kidney issues. Quote by Patty post #35:
I asked my question two times (post 37 & 48)
My question has still not been answered.

I answered your question when I posted this link

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/proteins-kidneys-senior-dogs/

I never said feeding corn would "cause" kidney issues. I said it is not a recommended main protein source for seniors that "can" develope KF.

I also said this in post #48

"It may have protein but it is not nearly as good a source as meat protein. Senior dogs that have or may develope kidney issues need quality protein to keep their kidneys functioning. That quality protein does not come from corn but from good "quality" "meat" protein. Corn is much harder to digest than "quality meat protein"

So if a dog has KF corn is the worst protein source you could feed because the kidneys have to work too hard to break it down, etc.

In prevention of issues with seniors it is wise to feed quality meat (specific) protein sources to make it easier for the body (kidneys) to assimilate.

I sure hope you read this correctly this time and the link above, as I am answering your question yet again.

Just in case you still don't feel I have answered your question here is another link talking about protein (meat) as the best source compaired to corn/grain. It also talks about the importance of meat protein for seniors (with or without KF)

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:oq6dCXeZlS0J:www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx%3Fid%3D3408+proteins+with+the+best+an d+worst+digestibility+in+dogs&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I answered your question when I posted this link

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/proteins-kidneys-senior-dogs/

I never said feeding corn would "cause" kidney issues. I said it is not a recommended main protein source for seniors that "can" develope KF.

I also said this in post #48

"It may have protein but it is not nearly as good a source as meat protein. Senior dogs that have or may develope kidney issues need quality protein to keep their kidneys functioning. That quality protein does not come from corn but from good "quality" "meat" protein. Corn is much harder to digest than "quality meat protein"

So if a dog has KF corn is the worst protein source you could feed because the kidneys have to work too hard to break it down, etc.

In prevention of issues with seniors it is wise to feed quality meat (specific) protein sources to make it easier for the body (kidneys) to assimilate.

I sure hope you read this correctly this time and the link above, as I am answering your question yet again.

Just in case you still don't feel I have answered your question here is another link talking about protein (meat) as the best source compaired to corn/grain. It also talks about the importance of meat protein for seniors (with or without KF)

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:oq6dCXeZlS0J:www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx%3Fid%3D3408+proteins+with+the+best+an d+worst+digestibility+in+dogs&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Just posting a link is not answering a question. A dogs diet should contain contain a good source of meat protein, I don't think there is a dispute over that. Your statement that corn is not recommended suggests that it's bad, even if used in a diet with meat. This is not true unless your dog is allergic to corn. Corn is digestible, about as digestible as rice, as seen in this study: The Use of Sorghum and Corn as Alternatives to Rice in Dog foods (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1704S).

FWIW, your link that was intended to be my answer did not even mention corn. Your dislike of corn is obvious and your posts are slanted toward your belief but unless you're posting facts you should include "IMO". Look at scientific studies when you research and you will know the facts. If we post facts and not conjecture then people can make an informed decision.

I can read just fine but your statement was not clear, it would have been much easier if you just clarified your statement or re-worded it instead of going ballistic.

"FWIW, your link that was intended to be my answer did not even mention corn."

Doppler please read this from the link:

"The dog’s body must be able to utilize the protein. Poor protein sources for dogs include waste animal proteins (unfit for human consumption), over processed proteins and plant proteins (plant proteins are incomplete in the amino acids needed for canine health). If a processed dog food is given, always check the ingredients and know the source of the proteins listed"

What do you think corn is? My guess would be plant protein?

I suggest you read this link again - specifically the chart listing plant proteins (Oh my, do I see corn on that list?)

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:oq6dCXeZlS0J:www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx%3Fid%3D3408+proteins+with+the+best+an d+worst+digestibility+in+dogs&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The whole idea is to feed seniors quality specific meat protein as their main source for better digestibility and utilization by the body/organs. Corn is not recommended as the main protein source and when feeding a commercial diet to a senior if it has corn in it, it should be far, far down on the list.

"I can read just fine but your statement was not clear, it would have been much easier if you just clarified your statement or re-worded it instead of going ballistic."

What about this statement is not clear? Would someone else please chime in and tell me?

"It may have protein but it is not nearly as good a source as meat protein. Senior dogs that have or may develope kidney issues need quality protein to keep their kidneys functioning. That quality protein does not come from corn but from good "quality" "meat" protein. Corn is much harder to digest than "quality meat protein"

From your link:

"Sorghum and corn are known to contain starch that is less digestible in the intestinal tract because of a strong starch–protein matrix"

But hey, you do what you want. I have already had one dog with KF and will strive to avoid that in the future which includes "quality meat" protein as the main source for a longer/healthier life for my dogs.

For anyone interested here is the biological value of different proteins: Notice where corn is on the list. It comes in just ahead of hair and feathers.

Taken from Fosters and Smith:

"Protein quality

Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. So not all proteins are created equal. Some are better for pets than others. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is summarized as protein quality (biological value). Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard for which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value. The actual composition of individual proteins as well as the utilization of amino acids is very detailed and beyond the scope of this article, but in summary, we see that all proteins are not created equal."

First every vet I have been too since owning dogs has told me to try and feed my dogs food without corn, wheat or soy. Reason, dogs have a hard time digesting corn, and all three ingredients can cause dogs to have adverse allergic reactions. But way back when, it was very hard to find a dog food without corn, and many had corn as its first ingredient. Therefore back when these good foods made by Natura and some others were not being made, I fed my dog(s) table scraps with just a little of low quality dog food that was only available.

"Think about what happens when you eat corn. The outer sheath of the corn kernels remains in our waste (thus becoming the subject of many jokes and gross-out dinner conversations) because it is not digestible in the time that it spends in our digestive system. We process food every 6 to 12 hours - that's a long time, and the majority of it is due to the length of our intestinal tract.
With a much shorter and less capable intestinal tract, cats are at a disadvantage compared to us when it comes to digesting most carbohydrates. Corn meal, in particular, is more of a filler in cat food than it is a useful ingredient. While the corn present in cat food doesn't retain its comically fresh-off-the-husk shape after digestion, as it does for us, there may be even more of it expelled in waste because of the cat's inability to digest all but perhaps a very small portion of it.
Dogs may not have the same limitations as a cat in terms of digestion, but they can't digest corn any more easily than cats. Thus, a dog food with corn as a primary ingredient is nearly worthless, nutritionally.

http://www.examiner.com/x-19313-Memphis-Pets-Examiner~y2009m8d19-Watch-what-you-feed-your-dog--corn-and-wheat-gluten-can-be-problematic

Just posting a link is not answering a question. A dogs diet should contain contain a good source of meat protein, I don't think there is a dispute over that. Your statement that corn is not recommended suggests that it's bad, even if used in a diet with meat. This is not true unless your dog is allergic to corn. Corn is digestible, about as digestible as rice, as seen in this study: The Use of Sorghum and Corn as Alternatives to Rice in Dog foods (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1704S).

FWIW, your link that was intended to be my answer did not even mention corn. Your dislike of corn is obvious and your posts are slanted toward your belief but unless you're posting facts you should include "IMO". Look at scientific studies when you research and you will know the facts. If we post facts and not conjecture then people can make an informed decision.

I can read just fine but your statement was not clear, it would have been much easier if you just clarified your statement or re-worded it instead of going ballistic.

I think the answer is crystal clear -- what kind of hatchet do you carry for Patty?

"FWIW, your link that was intended to be my answer did not even mention corn."

Doppler please read this from the link:

"The dog’s body must be able to utilize the protein. Poor protein sources for dogs include waste animal proteins (unfit for human consumption), over processed proteins and plant proteins (plant proteins are incomplete in the amino acids needed for canine health). If a processed dog food is given, always check the ingredients and know the source of the proteins listed"

What do you think corn is? My guess would be plant protein?

I suggest you read this link again - specifically the chart listing plant proteins (Oh my, do I see corn on that list?)

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:oq6dCXeZlS0J:www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx%3Fid%3D3408+proteins+with+the+best+an d+worst+digestibility+in+dogs&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The whole idea is to feed seniors quality specific meat protein as their main source for better digestibility and utilization by the body/organs. Corn is not recommended as the main protein source and when feeding a commercial diet to a senior if it has corn in it, it should be far, far down on the list.

"I can read just fine but your statement was not clear, it would have been much easier if you just clarified your statement or re-worded it instead of going ballistic."

What about this statement is not clear? Would someone else please chime in and tell me?

"It may have protein but it is not nearly as good a source as meat protein. Senior dogs that have or may develope kidney issues need quality protein to keep their kidneys functioning. That quality protein does not come from corn but from good "quality" "meat" protein. Corn is much harder to digest than "quality meat protein"

From your link:

"Sorghum and corn are known to contain starch that is less digestible in the intestinal tract because of a strong starch–protein matrix"

But hey, you do what you want. I have already had one dog with KF and will strive to avoid that in the future which includes "quality meat" protein as the main source for a longer/healthier life for my dogs.

This is getting boring but I will clear up a few things. All I asked you to do is clarify your poorly written statement. "Corn is also not recommended for senior dogs who can develope kidney issues." Do all senior dogs develop kidney issues? Will feeding corn cause my dog to have kidney issues? How does someone know if their dog will develop kidney issues? If I don't feed a food with corn will my dog never have kidney issues? Your original statement could make others ask these questions and lead them to believe that a senior dog will be harmed by eating corn. Your clarification (finally): "I never said feeding corn would "cause" kidney issues. I said it is not a recommended main protein source for seniors that "can" develope KF." Now wasn't that easy? If you said this earlier I missed it amongst all your babble.

It would be very time consuming to go through your opinionated and less then factual statements that you made in this thread. I don't have the desire or energy. I didn't read your suggested supplemental reading either ("Just in case you still don't feel I have answered your question here is another link talking about protein (meat) as the best source compaired to corn/grain.") Once again, I am not debating that meat contains a more complete amino acid profile compared to corn. Nobody is recommending that corn should be the #1 ingredient in dog food but it is digested and is not harmful. Feeding a senior dog a food with corn in it will not cause him to develop kidney issues. It's rare to find a regular dog food today that doesn't have sufficient protein levels in it.

You quoted this from the introduction in my link: "Sorghum and corn are known to contain starch that is less digestible in the intestinal tract because of a strong starch–protein matrix", why didn't you quote the entire sentence? Here it is: Sorghum and corn are known to contain starch that is less digestible in the intestinal tract because of a strong starch–protein matrix (2); however, the extrusion process involved in the manufacture of dog food is likely to gelatinize the starch and make it more digestible (3). The results of this study: The fecal starch digestibility was not different among treatment groups (P > 0.05), with each diet having 100% fecal starch digestibility (Table 2). This indicates that the extrusion process used in the manufacture of the diets gelatinized the starch in the sorghum and corn diets and made it readily digestible (3)

I went to your b-naturals link and attempted to open the links referenced within that article (not study), half of the links are broken. One of the links that does work will tell you that this is just a theory and it talks about the need for moderate protein levels. The vet goes on to give his recommendations and says, "Feed a diet with a protein level which fits the dog's activity level. Dietary protein levels do not appear to be involved in the progression of renal disease or play a roll in the prevention of kidney failure. However, I prefer to err on the conservative side. I think protein levels in the 20-24 % range are probably safe."

Prescription diets are formulated based on research and science, that trumps your limited experience with one dog. Look at the ingredients for prescription diets meant for kidney disease and you will see that they have corn in them. If corn is bad for dogs ("who may develope kidney issues") then you wouldn't expect to see corn in prescription diets designed for kidney disease. One example, Royal Canin Renal LP Modified (http://www.royalcanin.us/products/productdetail.aspx?ID=82), "high energy, highly digestible diets that have been formulated to aid in the management of late stage chronic kidney disease in adult dogs", "Low Protein, Restricted levels of high biological value protein to minimize the production of nitrogenous waste products and improve the clinical signs associated with kidney disease."

I never intended to get into a debate about corn, carbohydrates or protein levels, I only wanted clarification on a statement that you made. You finally clarified your statement but you continue to go on, and on and on and on.....needlessly. One of this country's most successful and respected breeders raises her puppies on a food that is loaded with corn. Her beautiful champion dogs grow up perfectly normal with fully functioning organs, lol. Look at what most champion dogs eat. If we continue feeding low carbohydrate/high protein/grain free foods will our show labs look the same? I don't think so, I think the lab silhouette will change.

FYI, it's develop not develope, I copied your misspelled rendition to accurately quote you.

I think Doppler should follow what this guy says:





http://usera.imagecave.com/jmitch006/smart%20copy.jpg

Prescription diets are formulated based on research and science, that trumps your limited experience with one dog. Look at the ingredients for prescription diets meant for kidney disease and you will see that they have corn in them. If corn is bad for dogs ("who may develope kidney issues") then you wouldn't expect to see corn in prescription diets designed for kidney disease. One example, Royal Canin Renal LP Modified, "high energy, highly digestible diets that have been formulated to aid in the management of late stage chronic kidney disease in adult dogs", "Low Protein, Restricted levels of high biological value protein to minimize the production of nitrogenous waste products and improve the clinical signs associated with kidney disease."


I have no interest in your on-going debate with Patty, but the above quoted paragraph does make me look twice. While "prescription" diets have varying amounts of research behind them, the appropriate values of minerals, fats, proteins, etc. could easily be achieved without the presence of corn. Corn is inexpensive so it's readily used in these "prescription" formulas. If corn all of a sudden became a high-priced commodity, all of the companies could easily generate nearly the same "prescription" formula using whatever grain was cheaper at the moment.

I think Doppler should follow what this guy says:


I do when good advice is given. I think you should follow the advice that was given to you.

I have no interest in your on-going debate with Patty, but the above quoted paragraph does make me look twice. While "prescription" diets have varying amounts of research behind them, the appropriate values of minerals, fats, proteins, etc. could easily be achieved without the presence of corn. Corn is inexpensive so it's readily used in these "prescription" formulas. If corn all of a sudden became a high-priced commodity, all of the companies could easily generate nearly the same "prescription" formula using whatever grain was cheaper at the moment.

What ingredient do you suggest meets these criteria? "Low Protein, Restricted levels of high biological value protein to minimize the production of nitrogenous waste products and improve the clinical signs associated with kidney disease."

Bottom line is....

EVO is the best food you can buy....

but...

some people like feeding diets with more carbs in the form of grains....

Satch did wonderful on a grain and meat diet...Cal Nat Lamb...very high carbs...close to 50 % I believe...

Satch is doing great on Horizon Legacy (grain free) , Fromm Surf and Turf , and now the EVO herring....but I could not get him to have good stool on 100 % Reg EVO...

whether the diet is grain free, heavy in carbs (from grain) you just don't know until you try different foods....which is going to work....

As others have said..every dog is different....

Is it worth it to find a grain free that works....IMO ..Yes. The reason is nutrition..... Most dog foods are filled with extra non digestible fillers they don't need and have been highly processed....The fact that dogs need protein can not be argued...But good quality protein is expensive...The cheaper priced foods will have Corn gluten vs having a meat source....Both provide essential amino acids...but which is more in its Natural state...? One is natural...the other is a man made concentration that is highly processed...

Corn dog..or Meat dog.... it is funny that before commercial dog foods..dogs survived well eating what Mom and Pop swilled into their bowl from the family meal....They were the garbage pail or disposal....They lived outside on the farm and their feces was not examined for perfection...

The issue everyone should be concerned with is product safety...You don't want to wind up with a sick dog from it eating tainted food...What you do get if feeding a Natura product has been confidence ...Their manufacturing plant is the best in the business....and their owners are people you can put a name to their faces...something you can't do with many products today....

decided that you know who is not worth my time. I will reply tomorrow

What ingredient do you suggest meets these criteria? "Low Protein, Restricted levels of high biological value protein to minimize the production of nitrogenous waste products and improve the clinical signs associated with kidney disease."

Some form of white rice would probably have "low protein of restricted levels of high biological value protein." And I believe most people would interpret the phrase: "improve the clinical signs associated with kidney disease" as fairly vague non-scientific marketing terminology.

Some form of white rice would probably have "low protein of restricted levels of high biological value protein." And I believe most people would interpret the phrase: "improve the clinical signs associated with kidney disease" as fairly vague non-scientific marketing terminology.

I don't interpret it that way at all, I see it as something more objective like improving blood work.

White rice is nice but I believe it's cheaper than corn. Imagine yourself only eating white rice everyday.

I don't interpret it that way at all, I see it as something more objective like improving blood work.

White rice is nice but I believe it's cheaper than corn. Imagine yourself only eating white rice everyday.

Not in a million years, rice is way more expensive than corn. The rise in rice prices is what caused some dog food companies to change their formulas, mentioning just one, Canidae changed because of the price of rice.

Eating rice everyday, the Chinese do it, they seem to be okay.

Doppler I am tired of debating this issue with you.

You keep claiming I did not answer your question (which I have numerous times). Why don't you answer my questions which were asked way back in this thread? I think others here would also like to hear your answers - if you have the guts.

[/QUOTE]You have also put your 2 cents in on many of the threads on the breeder section in the past and I have always wondered about you. Do you breed? No one on this board has any way of knowing because you reveal very little about yourself.

Yet you come on threads like this and question people who have years of knowledge.

How long have you been researching canine nutrition and dog food? How long have you been raising Labs or any breed of dog for that matter?

The other question I have is are you male or female? Your profile says very little about you (at least the last time I bothered to look..............)[/QUOTE]

Not in a million years, rice is way more expensive than corn. The rise in rice prices is what caused some dog food companies to change their formulas, mentioning just one, Canidae changed because of the price of rice.

Eating rice everyday, the Chinese do it, they seem to be okay.

Yep, I looked, you're absolutely correct but rice is already in the formula and it's ahead of corn. If $ was the driving factor I would expect corn to be the #1 ingredient. No ethoxquin here.

Ingredients:
Rice, brown rice, ground corn, chicken fat, natural flavors, powdered cellulose, chicken meal, corn gluten meal, anchovy oil (source of EPA/DHA), wheat gluten, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, sodium silico aluminate, fructooligosaccharides, salt, taurine, choline chloride, L-lysine, DL-methionine, Vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), Trace Minerals [zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E) and citric acid.

Satch is doing great on Horizon Legacy (grain free) , Fromm Surf and Turf , and now the EVO herring....but I could not get him to have good stool on 100 % Reg EVO...

whether the diet is grain free, heavy in carbs (from grain) you just don't know until you try different foods....which is going to work....



This EVO herring formula has sparked my interest.. Maybe I might pick up a small bag of this for Bailey and try as a topper. Maybe the problem for her was once she was on EVO 100% is when she couldn't get a nice stool..

This EVO herring formula has sparked my interest.. Maybe I might pick up a small bag of this for Bailey and try as a topper. Maybe the problem for her was once she was on EVO 100% is when she couldn't get a nice stool..

Great idea.... If we look at generations of dogs that have been eating grain based diets for 75 years now it is quite possible the ability to digest an ancestral diet like EVO at 100% has been bred out.... Just adding 20 % of any EVO product can add good meat protein to boost the immune system and overall health of your dog.... A small bag of EVO is the best way to start..to see how your dog tolerates it.

Great idea.... If we look at generations of dogs that have been eating grain based diets for 75 years now it is quite possible the ability to digest an ancestral diet like EVO at 100% has been bred out.... Just adding 20 % of any EVO product can add good meat protein to boost the immune system and overall health of your dog.... A small bag of EVO is the best way to start..to see how your dog tolerates it.


This is how she started on EVO with 20% but then I made the transitition to the 100 and it went downhill fast.. My vet said take her off which is when I started feeding ZiwiPeak.

This is how she started on EVO with 20% but then I made the transitition to the 100 and it went downhill fast.. My vet said take her off which is when I started feeding ZiwiPeak.

how are you liking Ziwipeak? Do you have to feed as much as the bag says? Do you feed it exclusively?

how are you liking Ziwipeak? Do you have to feed as much as the bag says? Do you feed it exclusively?


Bailey loves it! She actually chews her food, like she's savoring the taste! :p:

I started as a toppper but have switched to feeding in exclusively. No, I don't feed as much as the bag says. I needed the switch for the summer with Bailey's sports and Ziwi is high in calories.. For the winter I will probably go back to using as just a topper.

This EVO herring formula has sparked my interest.. Maybe I might pick up a small bag of this for Bailey and try as a topper. Maybe the problem for her was once she was on EVO 100% is when she couldn't get a nice stool..

I picked the small bag (6.6 lbs.) of the Evo Herring and Salmon last Saturday. Not cheap, $21 plus tax for this small bag. I started by just adding about a 1/4 cup to Bear's evening meal, but now have gone 50-50, half Innova half EVO H&S, once a day at his evening feeding. Both dogs love the food and their stools have not changed a bit.
In all honesty, if the EVO H&S was less money, I would feed more of it, but for now it's the best I can do.
I have not been feeding it long enough to notice any differences in coat. Bear does have a nice shiny coat now with the Innova. I just like the fact they are getting good meat based protein from both the Innova and the EVO H&S.

Just be aware of the fish smell when you open the bag, it is quite strong.

I picked the small bag (6.6 lbs.) of the Evo Herring and Salmon last Saturday. Not cheap, $21 plus tax for this small bag. I started by just adding about a 1/4 cup to Bear's evening meal, but now have gone 50-50, half Innova half EVO H&S, once a day at his evening feeding. Both dogs love the food and their stools have not changed a bit.
In all honesty, if the EVO H&S was less money, I would feed more of it, but for now it's the best I can do.
I have not been feeding it long enough to notice any differences in coat. Bear does have a nice shiny coat now with the Innova. I just like the fact they are getting good meat based protein from both the Innova and the EVO H&S.

Just be aware of the fish smell when you open the bag, it is quite strong.

Cheaper then Ziwi- $95 for 11 pounds.

Do you know how many calories are in by adding a 20% mixture with this formula?

Cheaper then Ziwi- $95 for 11 pounds.

Do you know how many calories are in by adding a 20% mixture with this formula?

The only thing I can help you with is that EVO Herring and Salmon formula contains 456 K/cals per cup.

You will need to ask a mathematician for to figure the rest out :D

Hi. I posted this in another post but am just replying in this thread. I am about 6 days into switching over from Natures Logic Duck/Salmon to the EVO herring/salmon. I am up to a 50/50 ratio and so far, so good. B's poo is good/firm and he really seems to like the EVO. I want to switch over 100% b/c I want to see if this will help his itching (feet/hands/belly).