In this http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/conformation-quiz-t7323875.html thread, dog #9 was said to be a moderate dog and I am wondering what exactly this means, it was said like it wasn't a positive. In many breeds if you say a dog is moderate it is considered a good thing- not extreme or out of standard.

A second question about dog #9- could this be a young Lab that hasn't fully developed yet and will gain depth as he matures?

I like a moderate dog. To me, a moderate dog is not overdone in anyway. Carries just that, a moderate coat, has moderate angles, with moderate head, body and bone. A little longer on leg. Fits nice in a boat, without rocking it.

My moderate bitch produced moderate puppies when bred to a moderate boy, well all but one, who is a beast ;)

This is my girl, who earlier in the week this photo was taken won her first major under a breeder judge. There are still some judges out there who prefer a moderate dog. If you compare her to the dog in that thread, you will see she is just 'less' all over. Still fits the standard, just less of her.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/luvmydog2much/bday4.jpg

She is very nice and great job on the major! Your explanation makes sense. I wasn't sure if the term meant the same thing in Labs, nice to know that it does.

Looking at your female, I think Tinker is going to be a moderate dog when she is mature.

Laura, get a copy of the LRC Illustrated Standard. Our labs, per the standard, are SUPPOSED to be moderate, and are supposed to be shown in good working condition. They are supposed to be capable of working long hours in the field under difficult conditions.

The height and weight ranges listed in the standard also lend proof to this "intent": Bitches 21.5-23.5" tall, 55-70 lbs. Dogs 22.5-24.5" tall, 65-80#.

That said, my girls currently are at the very bottom of the height standard (allowed 1/2" under and over) and weigh ~60-62#, yet look slight next to most of the show dogs their age in the ring.

Chest should not extend perceptably below the elbows, and withers to elbow should equal that of the elbow to ground. If you put a clear ruler to the photo posted above, you will see that she fits those measurements nicely. Can't tell by the angle but could be a wee bit longer in body than some would like but most folks will excuse a bit in length as it tends to be better for carrying pups (I agree, I have one much "squarer" bitch who really scared the dickens out of me when she carried a litter of 12).

Just because bulk is being rewarded by so many judges, does not make it right. The March 2009 column of the Gazette entitled "The Judge's Eye" was a great read. For those of us who do performance, I know I can't afford to add much more bone/substance than my girl has who is 2 yrs old, 21" tall and 62#. She's also slightly (~1/2") short on leg, and I see it as something I will be attempting to correct when I breed her. I guess it all depends on your goals in your lines but I MUCH prefer the look of R&R's yellow girl as compared to many winning in the ring currently. We have had a couple moderate Labs out here who have won multiple Best in Shows, btw, so I think if more judges saw that type, they'd be rewarded.

Anne

*Generally speaking*, it's the moderate Lab that is winning all breed shows under all breed judges.

There is definitely two types of show dogs ... specialty winners and all breed winners. There are cross over wins with some dogs, but the moderate dog is usually not rewarded under breeder judges.

Laura, are you getting the Labrador Quarterly? I think you'd really appreciate this publication.

*Generally speaking*, it's the moderate Lab that is winning all breed shows under all breed judges.

There is definitely two types of show dogs ... specialty winners and all breed winners. There are cross over wins with some dogs, but the moderate dog is usually not rewarded under breeder judges.

Yes, here is Dart, a very nice boy (with nice temperament/drive/working ability too!) I referred to above that has won in both venues:
http://www.doubledutchlabs.com/dart.html

And Nick, to represent the yellows, has won mostly in all breed, but nonetheless, is a very nice boy. :) Nick is competing for his SH currently:
http://www2.whidbey.com/sharay/nick.htm


Anne

Yes, here is Dart, a very nice boy (with nice temperament/drive/working ability too!) I referred to above that has won in both venues:
http://www.doubledutchlabs.com/dart.html

And Nick, to represent the yellows, has won mostly in all breed, but nonetheless, is a very nice boy. :) Nick is competing for his SH currently:
http://www2.whidbey.com/sharay/nick.htm


Anne

While I love the first you dog you posted, I really dont like the second one. He is long in the loin, not enough neck, overangulated rear for my tastes, and also unbalanced front to rear.

Also, I do have a question, would you consider a dog like "Buzz" to be specialty or all-breed, and when is alot of bone to much bone in your opinions? While alot of bone is impressive, at what point do you say its to much and this dog should not be put up?

........

While I love the first you dog you posted, I really dont like the second one....Also, I do have a question, would you consider a dog like "Buzz" to be specialty or all-breed, and when is alot of bone to much bone in your opinions?

I agree- Dart is a very nice boy and the yellow isn't my cup of tea in the least. It has nothing to do with being "moderate" and everything to do with his faults (and yes, I have seen both dogs in person...I was at the show where Dart went BISS at LRCSC back when my show dog was a 6-month-old puppy).

"Buzz" has done extremely well with both all-breed Best In Show wins (something like 28 of them?) as well as multiple Best In Specialty Show wins (what, like 8 or 9?), including the prestigious "Potomac" (Lab Ret Club of the Potomac) and his latest BISS at the age of almost 10 years old, I believe (shortly after getting his JH title having only started training a couple months prior to that, and without Force-fetching, E-collar, etc.). While I haven't seen him in person, I have heard that he is just a bit "more" than the average "moderate" dog, but also an exceptional showman with fantastic movement and soundness.

I've liked the pics of Buzz also, but haven't gotten to see/meet him in person (a friend was going to breed to him awhile back, but he's a PRA carrier, unfortunately and they weren't willing to go there). But, I have seen some of the training videos they did when doing his JH and he seemed to have a wonderful disposition--- that's so important to me also!!! When I have bred to dogs 1000's of miles away, I have had to rely on other folks I trust to assess temperament and movement. It's kind of sad but anymore, but temperament is just not a "given" in our breed. So many things to consider. I will never regret breeding to CH/MH Bandit twice, however, despite never getting to really meet him in the "flesh". My vet had though, as did several other breeder friends. Now there is another moderate dog who did well at both all breed and specialty shows in the early to mid 90's. ETA: This is Bandit, one of my all time favorites:

I've liked the pics of Buzz also, but haven't gotten to see/meet him in person (a friend was going to breed to him awhile back, but he's a PRA carrier, unfortunately and they weren't willing to go there). But, I have seen some of the training videos they did when doing his JH and he seemed to have a wonderful disposition--- that's so important to me also!!! When I have bred to dogs 1000's of miles away, I have had to rely on other folks I trust to assess temperament and movement. It's kind of sad but anymore, but temperament is just not a "given" in our breed. So many things to consider. I will never regret breeding to CH/MH Bandit twice, however, despite never getting to really meet him in the "flesh". My vet had though, as did several other breeder friends. Now there is another moderate dog who did well at both all breed and specialty shows in the early to mid 90's.

I assume that's Bandit in the photo? Very nice, indeed. I do like his looks and would agree that he's moderate based on what I have seen and read. I thought at Potomac this year the winners were more on the moderate side from the English judges. Not to say the winners weren't bigger than what you see at an all breed show, but compared to many of the dogs there, the judges put up a more moderate dog/bitch.

Anne, you talk about the chest above and I am wondering if you mean the part that you can see in the pic of the yellow in the earlier response? Is this what you are considering the chest? Thanks, Edie

What great information everyone has shared. I am sorry I couldn't respond earlier, DH's car got broken into last night in VA and they stole alot of stuff, right down to the center dashboard, complete with knobs, along with everything in the glovebox (insurance, registration, etc). So I have been running around all day replacing lost documents & faxing them so he can drive home tonight.

3colors- I just ordered the Labrador Quarterly. I am so excited, can't wait till I get it. I saw that many of you mentioned it in various threads so decided to order it.

It is funny but the books that I received spurred me to start a thread about a moderate Lab body type because overall I am not seeing a heavier boned dog in the books. Then I started finding quite a few of Tinker's relatives and they are of a (now I know) moderate body type. So, then I began wondering what exactly is a moderate Lab.

My mentor always stressed that you should be able to read a standard and be able to judge the breed based off of the standard alone. You should be able to picture the dog in your mind off of the standard. When I read the standard, I picture a more moderate dog. But I was thinking that maybe I was missing something or reading something incorrectly.

Anne, you talk about the chest above and I am wondering if you mean the part that you can see in the pic of the yellow in the earlier response? Is this what you are considering the chest? Thanks, Edie

I was referring to the fact that the chest (brisket) should not extend perceptibly deeper than the elbows. Many of the winning lines currently ARE deeper in chest than that and lend to an off balance/front heavy look to me. In R&R's pic, the deepest part of the chest does extend a bit below the elbows-- about an inch I'd guess but I'm guessing that line across is actually the ribcage line which is what I'd go by. Is that "extension" before puppies or a little "booby" result after? Dunno-- R&R, can you answer that??? Her withers to elbow measurement does equal elbows to the ground nicely. She looks like a dog that can work, and to me, that's a dog I like! Maybe this illustration will help (from the illustrated std).

I assume that's Bandit in the photo? Very nice, indeed. I do like his looks and would agree that he's moderate based on what I have seen and read. I thought at Potomac this year the winners were more on the moderate side from the English judges. Not to say the winners weren't bigger than what you see at an all breed show, but compared to many of the dogs there, the judges put up a more moderate dog/bitch.

Yes, that is Bandit. :) According to Jim Cook (his owner), Bandit was only ~68-72# when running MH's and ~80# for specialties. Here is his breeder's webpage: http://www.janrod.com/bandit.htm I have all of his accomplishments listed somewhere from Jim's old website but suffice to say he did well at both all breed and specialties. Anne

What great information everyone has shared. I am sorry I couldn't respond earlier, DH's car got broken into last night in VA and they stole alot of stuff, right down to the center dashboard, complete with knobs, along with everything in the glovebox (insurance, registration, etc). So I have been running around all day replacing lost documents & faxing them so he can drive home tonight.

3colors- I just ordered the Labrador Quarterly. I am so excited, can't wait till I get it. I saw that many of you mentioned it in various threads so decided to order it.

It is funny but the books that I received spurred me to start a thread about a moderate Lab body type because overall I am not seeing a heavier boned dog in the books. Then I started finding quite a few of Tinker's relatives and they are of a (now I know) moderate body type. So, then I began wondering what exactly is a moderate Lab.

My mentor always stressed that you should be able to read a standard and be able to judge the breed based off of the standard alone. You should be able to picture the dog in your mind off of the standard. When I read the standard, I picture a more moderate dog. But I was thinking that maybe I was missing something or reading something incorrectly.

Sorry to hear that. I hate thugs!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: But yes, you should be able to read a standard and form a picture from that.

The last time I saw the LQ was probably a couple years ago, and the dogs showcased were not what I'd consider as moderate. Now, that said... MY girls and (now) MACH brother were part of a stud ad back in ~2005 or 6, and they certainly ARE moderate (see my avatar), but they also are 1/4 field. I rec'd many very nice compliments on that photo btw, 2 that I can vividly remember from AKC lab/breeder judges even. I was a bit shocked to be honest. Anne

I will say something about the weight/height issue. Ruby is quite moderate. She is 22" tall and as of yesterday, 82lbs, so well above the weight standard. She's a big girl, not a lot of bone, but more body than that photo indicates. Those pictures are of Ruby at 2. She had her litter at almost 4, so its not booby you are seeing :) Feel free to cut her apart, I know where her strenghts and weaknesses lie.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/luvmydog2much/IMG_0168.jpg

This is her the day she was bred
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/luvmydog2much/rubyocean5.jpg

And 6 days before she whelped 10 puppies in 4.5 hours
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/luvmydog2much/Ruby004.jpg

I will say something about the weight/height issue. Ruby is quite moderate. She is 22" tall and as of yesterday, 82lbs, so well above the weight standard. She's a big girl, not a lot of bone, but more body than that photo indicates. Those pictures are of Ruby at 2. She had her litter at almost 4, so its not booby you are seeing :) Feel free to cut her apart, I know where her strenghts and weaknesses lie.


There's no way I'd cut her apart. What I will say is that if she were at standard weight, she'd look too slight for my taste. I like the way she looks pregnant. What did the pregnancy do to her overall look? To my eye, I think a happy medium between her pre-pregnancy weight and pregnant weight would look really great on her. Just like the middle photo.

She was 109lbs three days before she whelped, she gained 30lbs without increasing her food until 2 weeks before she whelped.

She was 109lbs three days before she whelped, she gained 30lbs without increasing her food until 2 weeks before she whelped.

She carried her weight well. No way I would have guessed her to be that heavy.

As a pet owner, I prefer the moderate look. I especially like them square when you look at them from the side. It actually makes me feel anxious when I see heavy dogs of any breed because I'm thinking of their joints all the time. I'd never be able to own a newf or mastiff.

She was 109lbs three days before she whelped, she gained 30lbs without increasing her food until 2 weeks before she whelped.

I'd never guess that by looking at the photo either! She has a little roll over the shoulder, but not enough to squawk about. Are you sure she's only 22"???

Fuji at 6 wks along w/ 8 (I had just upped her food by 15% and she was lean!) looked as big as Ruby in that last photo! Wish I had one shrunk far enough to post but I don't and my program has been buggy lately. Anne

She was one wide load. What you can't tell about Ruby from pictures is how WIDE she is ;)

She was one wide load. What you can't tell about Ruby from pictures is how WIDE she is ;)

Wide enough to play a full game of solitaire on her back??? Poor girl!!! I called Jazzy (when pregnant w/ 12) a "tick w/ legs". :eek: