hello dog foodies!
now if i was a rich woman (which i am not) i would be feeding my entire zoo (lab puppy, rottweiler, three kitties) a raw organic diet. at this point, raw is not an option for us... mostly because i cannot afford to feed my animals organic meats (they do get an occasional meal of raw organic chicken wings and organic veggies)

regular old supermarket chicken and beef is another thing enitrely, i try my darndest not to support the conventional meat industry (don't get me started here...) now i know that feeding my dogs kibble supports this industry as well as the meat in most kibble is definately not sustainably farmed, but for some reason buying kibble sits a little bit better with me than buying raw antibiotic filled chickens.

i would love, however, to be able to feed my pets an organic kibble. my local pet store just started carrying Newman's own dog food. i read some past posts on the stuff but could not find anyone mentioning that they had actually fed it to their dogs. so, has anyone tried it? and does anyone know what other organic dog food options exist?

we are currently feeding avoderm to all pets, and they seem to be doing well on it. but almost all (within monitary reason) of the human food in the house is organic and i would like the whole family to be on the same page. in case it's not obvious, i feel very strongly about the way food is produced in this country (and the world for that matter, but one battle at a time!) GO ORGANIC! for you, for me, our children, the world!


thanks in advance for the help, this forum is a wonderful source of information!!!!

another organic made dog kibble is called Karma. its made by Natura. i havent tried Karma or Newman's for my dogs though.

YAY!!! Since 1999 I do only buy organic (as much as I can get, anyway) beef, chicken, milk, eggs, cereals, produce, juice, condiments, snacks, etc. If they aren't downright organic (and I can't find organic) I at least research to make sure they aren't GM. I'm completely grossed out by "mainstream" foods at this point. If they aren't pumped with antibiotics or growth hormones or irradiated or covered with preservatives and other toxins, then they're genetically modified. I also don't use mainstream household cleaning products (no toxic chems in MY house!).

I too would feed my boys organic raw if I could or even organic kibble if I could find a grain free one.

This link is a directory of "Natural" pet products, including links to organic pet foods.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/all_natural_pet_food.htm

It's not complete, though, because I didn't see Newman's Own or Karma on it.

When I was at a local dog store a while back the man there raved about Newman's - he didn't have any in stock so I went with Fromm's but it's not organic

thank you everyone
zencat, it is refreshing to meet another organic foody. seems that the stores in my area carry quite a few of the brands listed on the site that you pointed me to. I am going to go out this weekend and do some serious research (i.e pricing)
zen, is it difficult to eat organic in CT? Sometimes i feel like i live in a bubble in hippy san francisco, whenever i travel my food standards suffer. BTW, i don't clean my house with chemicals, either. I also don't put chemical flea treatments on my pets. (the vet HATES this, even though none of the pets have fleas. i don't see why she wants me to treat a problem that i dont have. maybe advantage is paying her...)

it seems that a dogfood switch is about to be put in motion at my house. i will be sure to report back with my organic dog food research for the benefit of the forum.

hhomer, it's getting easier. When I started in late '99 it was a heck of a challenge. I had to mail-order non toxic cleaning stuff, unbleached feminine products, toilet paper, etc. But now I can get anything I need even at regular grocery stores! We have the added challenge of being gluten-free (my son and I have celiac disease). Even the prices have evened out - organic used to be twice the price, now they are nearly equal. even our major grocery store - Stop 'n Shop - has it's own store brand of frozen organic veggies and french fries. I did the happy dance in the frozen aisle that day, I can tell you.

I've even got green cotton bedding - sheets and blankets!!

Organic dog food is still way way out of my budget though.

Keep us posted on your findings!!!

Forgot to mention... I'm still a real oddity around here though. I have 3 stickers on my car: Two oval dog sillouhettes, a grehound and a lab, and a bumper sticker that reads "LABEL GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS thecampaign.org". I find people staring at it at least once a week in parking lots. They say "What does it mean ?" And everyone just rolls their eyes when I talk about pesticides and food additives, etc. Oh well. I'm a lonely hippie ;)

Oh well. I'm a lonely hippie ;).

Zen Not quite, you've got company :). I don't have stickers on my car, but do try my best to be natural... in more ways than one :D.

happyhomer Good luck finding the most natural dog kibble and treats possible :).

lol im with you guys too, i try my best to be as natural and organic as i can, its just very hard on a tight budget...i even fought getting a car for 7 years and rode public transit and biked haha, i finally caved in when i moved this far north...waiting for a bus here is like waiting for H#LL to freeze over :D
I just bought a new cleaner called "natura" made with tea tree oil...i LOVE it...you can use it on everything....
and my dog, heck she eats 10X better then i do lol.

Julie

i've heard good things about tea tree oil as a cleaner. in my area, local stores do NOT carry this sort of thing. i have to travel about an hour away from my house to get to stores that are more "progessive" and "holistic" minded. i would love more info on how to buy cleaning products that are natural w/o chemicals. any ideas?

i do most of my cleaning with HOT water and vinegar. the only cleaning products that i do buy are a biodegradable dish soap and Dr. Brommers Soap (this stuff has been around for a long time, my parents used to wash me with this when i was a baby) Not all stores carry it but a lot of health food stores do, and it comes in gallons. a gallon lasts me about a month. I have used some tea tree cleaners but i didn't think that they were worth the money compaired to good old white vinegar.

here is a link that my mother sent me a while back:
http://kyky.essortment.com/cleaninghouse_rmen.htm

Hey Homer,

We have never used a flea Tx on our labs. We see a holistic vet, so she is cool with it but when I say to anyone that my Zoe has never been on a flea Tx they say how is that possible....well we feed her raw foods and her ammune system is very healthy. Fleas are opportunistic(sp)? The garlic in her food helps to keep the fleas away, they hate the taste. It's nice to live in an area of the country were organic anything is readily available.

Patty & Zoe

emmapie: I would recommend the following book: Better Basics for the Home : Simple Solutions for Less Toxic Living
by ANNIE BERTHOLD-BOND http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609803255/qid=1102905664/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-0707970-8975809?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It is FILLED with non toxic solutions for everything you can think of. It's my homemaking bible. I clean almost everythiing with vinegar and water or baking soda. I now have a spray bottle with tea tree oil and water that I spray my shower with (it discourages mold).

I can get non toxic dish and laundry detergent in my grocery store now, Sun & Earth is the brand. If not, it's very easy to get online www.gaiam.com is a great source for all things non-toxic and sustainable (low impact on the environment).

I'm enjoying this thread a LOT!

Originally posted by ZenCat


I've even got green cotton bedding - sheets and blankets!!


from gaiam? i just bought some friends a wedding present of organic cotton towels from there.:) :) :)

no updates on the organic dogfood search yet, but i did speak to my vet yesterday about having one or two raw meal days a week. we're getting there, right?

BTW Zen, my mother is allergic to wheat and i have a pretty strong sensitivity to it as well that shows itself mostly when im run down (tired or sick). my mother's house is kamut kamut kamut. and rye, and spelt.

so garlic keeps away fleas? please explain

so garlic keeps away fleas? please explain

Please take a look at this thread. Also, do a search on garlic, there are more threads on it on this board.

http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27054

Zencat - Just out of curiousity what specifically is your concern about GM foods?

Mcbain's mom, a little about GM ingredients.


i believe that the main concerns are the impact on the environment, and more immediately, the risk of food allergy deaths. if you put a gene from a soybean into another food and feed it to a person who is allergic to soy, they will react. i personally like to know what i am eating. as for the impact on the environment, these articles say it better than i do.

http://www.nzhealth.net.nz/poisons/genetic_foods.shtml

http://environment.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1002%2D03.htm

http://www.organicconsumers.org/ge/disaster121504.cfm

as for organic dog food, i have done the math and come to the conclusion that feeding orgainc kibble will cost me almost exactly double what i am paying for pet food now. too much. maybe if i had a terrier of some sort. considering making my own, i have jsut discovered that my butcher, lovley man, sells organic chicken carcasses for the same price as conventional. cha-ching.

the one thing that worries me, storage. in our house, a rental, there is an exrta freezer in the garage that we keep turned off. i have heard that your fridge uses one third of your power. in the intrest of energy conservation, i have left said freezer off. now wieghing the pros and cons of using it. sigh...

Warning! Long post to follow!

McBain's mom, the other thing that infuriates me about GM foods is the stealth in which our government has introduced them into the food chain, without the knowledge or consent of the people who will be consuming them.

Our country's labelling laws are an outrage in my opinion. They cater to the "proprietary rights" of the manufacturers (companies like Monsanto) more than they do the consumer who might be harmed by ingredients contained in either food or cleaning/cosmetic/etc products. Almost everything you buy at the grocery store contains GM ingredients now. Virtually all corn, soy, canola and cotton is GM now. If it doesn't say "Non GMO" or "Organic" on the label you can assume it is GM.

Although the GM tomato has been taken off the market, millions of acres of soy, corn, canola, and cotton have had foreign genes inserted into their DNA. The new genes allow the crops to survive applications of herbicide, create their own pesticide, or both. While there are only a handful of published animal safety studies, mounting evidence, which needs to be followed up, suggests that these foods are not safe.

Rats fed GM corn had problems with blood cell formation. Those fed GM soy had problems with liver cell formation, and the livers of rats fed GM canola were heavier. Pigs fed GM corn on several Midwest farms developed false pregnancies or sterility. Cows fed GM corn in Germany died mysteriously. And twice the number of chickens died when fed GM corn compared to those fed natural corn.

The following is from www.thecampaign.org which hopes to achieve a change in labelling laws requiring GM ingredients to be disclosed.

1. Very few studies have been conducted to determine whether genetically engineered foods are harmful to human health.
Genetic engineering is a young, and in many ways poorly understood, technology. Many scientists believe that genetically engineered foods have been rushed much too quickly to market--to boost multinationals' profit margins--before adequate testing has been completed to ensure public health.

Early in 2001, the Royal Society of Canada-the nation's foremost scientific body-said there was insufficient research into the potential allergic effects and toxicity of genetically engineered foods. GM foods could cause "serious risks to human health," the society said.

According to the Washington Post, the "dearth of studies is the legacy of a U.S. policy that considers gene-altered plants and food to be fundamentally the same as conventional ones, a policy some Americans are starting to question....

"And it is the legacy of broken promises by the Food and Drug Administration and the Environmental Protection Agency, both of which have said for the past five years that they intend to write rules to minimize the chances that gene-altered food will cause allergies or damage the environment."

2. Genetic engineering may trigger allergies in people.
Genetic engineering may involve the transfer of new and unidentified proteins from one food into another, with the potential of setting off allergic reactions. And allergies aren't simply a matter of slight discomfort; they can potentially result in life-threatening anaphylactic shock.

Without labeling, people with allergies won't know if they are eating foods that contain genes from other foods to which they are allergic.

In 1996, scientists were stunned to discover that soybeans engineered to include protein-rich genes from the Brazil nut also contained the allergenic properties of the Brazil nut. Animal studies had not revealed the allergenic nature of the mutated soybean. The manufacturer halted the release of the soybean just in time.

But with dozens of new genetically engineered crops under consideration, scientists believe much more extensive testing is required to ensure that those who suffer from allergies won't be affected by these foods.

Scientists also have discovered that Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), a bacterium that has been spliced into millions of acres of corn, potatoes and cotton, may produce allergies in people.

Science News reported in July 1999 that a study of Ohio crop pickers and handlers shows that Bt "can provoke immunological changes indicative of a developing allergy. With long-term exposure, affected individuals may develop asthma or other serious allergic reactions."

3. Genetic engineering may create new toxins harmful to human health.
Scientists say genetic engineering may produce new toxins, with potentially devastating results for humans. In at least one case, disaster has already happened.

In 1989, a genetically engineered version of tryptophan, a dietary supplement, produced toxic contaminants. Before it was recalled by the Food and Drug Administration, the mutated tryptophan wreaked havoc. Thirty-seven Americans died, 1,500 were permanently disabled, and 5,000 became ill with a blood disorder, eosinophila myalgia syndrome.

4. Genetic engineering may lead to antibiotic resistance.
Genetic engineers use antibiotic "markers" in almost every genetically modified organism to indicate that the organism has been successfully engineered. Scientists believe these antibiotic markers may contribute to the decreasing effectiveness of antibiotics against diseases.

5. Genetic engineering may be linked with a resurgence of infectious diseases.
The journal Microbial Ecology in Health and Disease reported in 1998 that commercial gene technology may be behind a recent resurgence of drug- and antibiotic-resistant infectious diseases. We'll let Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, author of the report (and author of Genetic Engineering: Dream or Nightmare?), take over from here. She says:

"At the heart of the issue is horizontal gene transfer - the transfer of genes by vectors such as viruses and other infectious agents - which is exploited by genetic engineers to make transgenic organisms. While natural vectors respect species barriers, the barrage of artificial vectors made by genetic engineers are designed to cross species barriers, thus greatly enhancing the potential for creating new viral and bacterial pathogens, and spreading drug and antibiotic resistance. Totally unrelated pathogens are showing up with identical virulence and antibiotic resistance genes.

"Recent statistics are frightening. Infectious diseases were responsible for one-third of the 52 million deaths from all causes in 1995. Multi-drug resistant tuberculosis is now estimated to affect 10 million each year with 3 million deaths. At least 50 new viruses attacking humans emerged between 1988 and 1996. Between 1986 and 1996, E. coli 0157:H7 infections increased by 10-fold in England and Wales and 100-fold in Scotland. Vancomycin resistance rose from 3 percent to 95 percent in San Francisco hospitals in the four years between 1993 and 1997. And Staphyloccocus (toxic shock syndrome) is now invulnerable to all known antibiotics.

"The first genetic engineers called for a moratorium in the Asilomar Declaration of 1975, precisely because they were afraid of inadvertently creating new viral and bacterial pathogens. The worst case scenario they envisaged may be taking shape. Commercial pressures led to regulatory guidelines based largely on untested assumptions, all of which have been invalidated by recent scientific findings. For example, biologically "crippled" laboratory strains of bacteria can often survive in the environment to exchange genes with other organisms. Genetic material (DNA) released from dead and living cells, far from being rapidly broken down, actually persists in the environment and transfers to other organisms. Naked viral DNA may be more infectious, and have a wider host range than the virus. Viral DNA resists digestion in the gut of mice, enters the blood stream to infect white blood cells, spleen and liver cells, and may even integrate into the mouse cell genome.

"'We may only be seeing the tip of the iceberg,' the scientists state. 'There is an urgent need to tighten existing regulations.' Instead, the EU is relaxing the guidelines on both deliberate release and contained use of GMOs. 'That is an irresponsible move in the light of existing scientific knowledge.'"

Threats to the environment
When biotech corporations boast that genetic engineering can do wonders for the environment, we would do well to consider the source. After all, some of these companies are the same ones that have invented such deadly pesticides such as DDT and Agent Orange. These pesticides, it was promised, would help the environment; instead, they turned into environmental disasters.

Environmentalists have many concerns about GE foods. Here are a few:

1. The plight of the Monarch butterfly
Cornell University researchers have found that GE corn may be deadly to the Monarch butterfly. In laboratory tests in the spring of 1999, the scientists found that nearly half of Monarch caterpillars that ate milkweed leaves dusted with GE corn pollen died within four days. The surviving Monarchs that ate the genetically mutated corn pollen were much smaller and had smaller appetites than the control Monarchs, which ate normal corn pollen or no pollen at all.

In 2000, Iowa State University scientists found that plants growing in and near cornfields are being dusted with enough GE pollen to kill monarch caterpillars that feed on them.

Already, GE corn is being grown on 20 million acres of American farmland, right in the heart of Monarch's migratory route between Mexico and Canada.

And scientists worry that there may be additional surprising scientific discoveries down the road.

2. Increased pesticide pollution
Many of the new GE crops, such as Roundup Ready soybeans, are designed to allow farmers to spray heavier doses of pesticides on their land. These pesticides inevitably will find their way into our water and food supply, endangering humans and wildlife.

New Scientist magazine reports that many farmers that have converted to GE production use as many pesticides as their conventional counterparts, while some GE farmers now use more pesticides.

And one of Britain's leading safety experts, Malcolm Kane (former head of food safety at the supermarket chain Sainsbury's), has revealed that the limits on pesticide residues in soy had been increased 200-fold to help the GE industry. He warned that higher pesticide residues could appear in a wide variety of foods, ranging from breakfast cereals to biscuits.

3. Genetic contamination of the environment
When Scottish Parliament member Robin Harper learned that Scottish scientists were experimenting with genetically modified salmon that grow at four times the normal rate, he was horrified, and called for a ban on all genetic engineering experiments.

"We should be extremely concerned about genetically modified fish because of the danger that they could escape into the wild," he said. "It's a similar, if not even more dangerous threat, to that we are facing with GM plants. If a GM fish escaped or was released accidentally in to the wild it could never be recaptured. This fish could breed with wild populations and devastate the existing natural balance with its modified behavior.

"There can be no doubt as to the huge threat GM fish would be to fish stocks wherever they were released in the World's oceans. This fish, if it escaped into the North Atlantic, could do untold damage to the ecology both of the north Atlantic and Scottish salmon rivers."

Like Harper, many scientists are concerned about the widespread release of genetically modified organisms (GMOs) into the environment. In the United States, millions of acres of land have been planted with GE crops. Scientists fear that GMOs will be spread, by bird, insect or wind, to non-GE crops--and to the wilderness. And unlike other kinds of waste, genetic contamination cannot be cleaned up, or contained.

4. GE genes can jump species barrier
In May, 2000, Professor Hans-Hinrich Katz, a leading German zoologist, released research that shows that genes used to modify crops can jump to other species and cause bacteria to mutate. Katz found that the gene used to modify oilseed rape had transferred to bacteria living in the guts of honey bees.

"These findings are very worrying and provide the first real evidence of what many have feared," says prominent genetic engineering critic and scientist Dr. Mae-Wan Ho.

"Everybody is keen to exploit GM technology, but nobody is looking at the risk of horizontal gene transfer. We are playing about with genetic structures that existed for millions of years and the experiment is running out of control."

5. Herbicide resistance and fears of the rise of superweeds
Some scientists fear that the extensive planting of genetically engineered crops will lead to a new class of "superweeds" that are resistant to pesticides. The largest class of genetic engineered foods is pesticide-resistant crops, such as Roundup Ready soybeans. The problem is that newly created transgenes may be spread unintentionally--by bird, insect or wind--from target crops to related weed species. The weeds then also pick up resistance to the pesticide.

Nature magazine reported in 1996, for example, that herbicide-resistant GE oilseed rape, released in Europe, has spread to several wild relatives.

6. Risks to biodiversity
In one especially macabre application of GE technology, scientists seek to develop "terminator" tree farms. The trees would be engineered not to reproduce, and they would be designed to secrete toxic chemicals through their leaves that would kill leaf-eating insects. The trees also would be engineered to include pesticide resistance, meaning that ground flora could be wiped out easily. Critics say the trees might grow faster than before, but they'd be devoid of bees, butterflies, birds and squirrels that depend on pollen, seed and nectar.

The terminator tree farms highlight a growing concern among scientists: the threat genetically engineered crops pose to biodiversity. Scientists estimate that by the year 2000, the world will have lost 95 percent of the genetic diversity present in agriculture 100 years earlier. GE crops are developed from the same monoculture varieties that giant agribusinesses have planted in the latter half of this century, and will only exacerbate the problem.

Moreover, pesticide-resistant crops will allow the application of increasing amounts of powerful pesticides. These pesticides often kill more than the targeted weeds; they frequently kill beneficial plants outside their intended range.

7. Damage to the soil
Scientists are concerned that genetically mutated crops may damage the soil. Researchers for Nature magazine reported in December that some types of GE crops may be leaking powerful toxins into the soil.

Many GE crops, such as corn and potatoes, have been engineered to produce poisons or toxins to fight pests that eat their leaves and stems. Researchers fear that beneficial soil organisms also may be killed, and that some insects may become resistant to the toxins.

Other researchers have revealed that lacewings that ate corn borers reared on GE corn had also died, increasing speculation that these crops are harming beneficial organisms.

8. Genetically engineered crops put birds at risk
British researchers in 2000 reported that the use of genetically engineered crops modified to tolerate herbicides may severely cut bird populations on farms. Professor Andrew Watkinson and colleagues from the University of East Anglia in Norwich found that bird populations could decline as much as 90 percent in some areas where herbicide-tolerant crops have been sown.

9. The problem of unintended consequences
Biotech firms assure us there's nothing to worry about. Genetically engineered foods, they say, will save the environment.

But it's a story we've heard before. In the mid-1900s, giant agribusinesses took the biological and chemical weapons from two world wars and turned them into pesticides and herbicides. They promised a wondrous new agricultural era of bigger yields and bug-free produce. It was only decades afterwards that scientists began to realize the scope of the environmental devastation wrought by the explosive growth of the pesticide industry.

In the 1960s, scientist Rachel Carson's epic, Silent Spring, awakened a generation to the dangers of dioxin and other manmade chemicals in the environment. But it wasn't until 30 years later that scientists began to understand the extent of the problem. Now we know that pesticides and other manmade chemicals are tampering with sexual development and reproduction, in many animal populations and humans as well.

The discovery that genetically engineered corn might be deadly to Monarch butterflies came as a shock to biotech advocates. If biotech companies continue with their massive experiment, what will our scientists tell us 50 years from now?

well said, zen.

Yeah, it's one of my biggest peeves. Frankly, it terrifies and enrages me :(

The fact that 9 out of 10 people I talk to have no idea they're consuming this stuff every day of their lives is shocking to me (but not surprizing).

And doen't EVEN get me started on aspartame. :rolleyes:

Can't help but believe that although GM foods are largely untested and could be putting consumers at risk, the organic craze isn't much better.

How does one know for sure that what they are buying is Organic?

What does organic mean? And are you sure that your definition of Organic means the same as the definition of Organic that is printed on such marketed foods?

If you step back and look at how any plant or animal comes to exist., here are some things that have made me scratch my head:

1.) Genetic material has to meet in order to produce life: Any
livestock alive today or plant seeds available today have had to been exposed to non-organic or tainted genetics. There is no way aroud it.

2.) It is fairly certain that our water supply is becoming increasingly more and more toxic. Wether your water comes out of your tap or falls from the sky it has, and is being exposed to chemicals that would bar it from being considered organic. This water is used to moisten those gentically tainted seeds or is provided to gentically tainted live stock to drink. Don't even give me the "its filtered" logic, becuase how can you filter chemicals that haven't even been collectively acknowledged? Meaning the various organic chloro-by product chemicals that exist in all of our water supplies.

3.) How can you be sure that the soil used to grow your "organic" food is free of chemicals that would exclude it from being called "organic"? Where does this special dirt come from that has never been exposed to presticides or acid rain?

4.) Hormone Free? Yeah right, Hormones are flooded into our sewers and watersheds every minute, because of there use to treat injuries (prednisone, cortisone) and asthma most inhalers have steroids/hormones in them.

Ideally organic would be healtheir, but I am not convinced that potential for organic anything exists any more.

I know for a fact that for pet foods, the end manufacturers only have to account for what they do to the resulting product. For example pet food can boast hormone free meat, if they themselves were not the ones to inject the meat/animal with hormones. Pet food manufacturers do not have to tell you that the chicken meal they get from farmer Joe was infact exposed to growth hormones while in the control of farmer Joe.

duckbagger, are you suggesting that we just give up? im not saying that organic means completely pure and free from toxins, but don't you think we should all get together and try to lessen (or even eliminate) the use of these potentially harmful chemicals into our world? i think the most important point is that i eat organic for several reasons, and my own health is secondary. im trying to do my part to save the world from being poisoned. its not just my own helath that concerns me, you get it. and in california at least, organic foods and food production is a huge business. i can buy organic cut flowers if i want.

dont you think that a small amount of toxins, pesticides and hormones would be less harmful to me and the world than a large amount of them? i do.

and i dont know what the laws where you come from, but the california organic foods act is pretty strict. as for pet foods, i dont know that they are covered but as for newman's own i know the politics of the newman family and i eat their people food often. i doubt that they would use less than standard organics in their petfood. and yes, you are right, it is something of a crapshoot but i for one believe in doing all that i can to help, even if it is only a drop in the bucket.

:) :) aside form all of this, i am a cook and i've got to tell you that organic fruits, veggies and meats have SO much more flavor than conventional. funny thing, this is the original reason that i switched to organic, before i even knew what it was all about.

All very interesting points... I just wondered if the fear of GM was for the right reasons.

As to organic being better for the environment... As it becomes big business I doubt it will be much better then non. If you want to help the environment ride your bike or car pool. It will not only help the environment, but it will cost you less too.

Zencat - how are Grip & Drum these past few days? Poop back to normal, still eating?

I am so with you on the cost! I had Duch on RAW for a period of time... then back to Kibble... Now, finally, I think I have found a happy medium... (Organic Dehydrated Raw diet)This is NOT what you asked for but... http://www.honestkitchen.net/
these guys make a great product! I started using it while backpacking... then I added it to my search pack (it is much lighter than Kibble)... now I feed it full time. It is about $20 more a month, but way easier to use is completely balenced! Has anyone else tried it?

I know my posted sounded like a "downer", but really my fear is that the Organic craze is just another marketing ploy, that in the end will make little impact.

I can respect the decision to use organic fruits and veggies because they taste better, thats a good enough reason for me!


Originally posted by happyhomer
duckbagger, are you suggesting that we just give up? im not saying that organic means completely pure and free from toxins, but don't you think we should all get together and try to lessen (or even eliminate) the use of these potentially harmful chemicals into our world? i think the most important point is that i eat organic for several reasons, and my own health is secondary. im trying to do my part to save the world from being poisoned. its not just my own helath that concerns me, you get it. and in california at least, organic foods and food production is a huge business. i can buy organic cut flowers if i want.

dont you think that a small amount of toxins, pesticides and hormones would be less harmful to me and the world than a large amount of them? i do.

and i dont know what the laws where you come from, but the california organic foods act is pretty strict. as for pet foods, i dont know that they are covered but as for newman's own i know the politics of the newman family and i eat their people food often. i doubt that they would use less than standard organics in their petfood. and yes, you are right, it is something of a crapshoot but i for one believe in doing all that i can to help, even if it is only a drop in the bucket.

:) :) aside form all of this, i am a cook and i've got to tell you that organic fruits, veggies and meats have SO much more flavor than conventional. funny thing, this is the original reason that i switched to organic, before i even knew what it was all about.

When we can stop all of these thoughtless volcanoes from releasing toxins into our atmosphere, then I will ride my bike to work.

Link to global active volcanoes:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/current_volcs/current.html

Originally posted by McBainsMom
If you want to help the environment ride your bike or car pool. It will not only help the environment, but it will cost you less too.

I just wanted to add that www.mothernature.com is a great site for Dr. Bronner's and lots of other stuff... from spices to vitamins to sunscreen. Prices are good and so is shipping!

That reminds me, I need to stock up on SPF 30. You use a lot of it when they make you wear it every day!

duckbagger, pesticides were introduced less than one hundred years ago. compared to thousands of years of organic farming. doesn't that make pesticide use more of a craze than organic?


i have a feeling we could go back and forth all day on this one, duck. :) :) :)

for all those interested, here is an interesting article that i found on Newman's organic dog food.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/organic/dogfood072904.cfm

I feel the need to point out that organic food/farming is not a "craze", it's a return to what is natural and sustainable for our planet. I'm always fairly dumstruck when people call things like organic food/farming or even feeding our dogs raw diets a "craze". It is, in fact, just the opposite. It is a return to the way things were before we all got so impatient and lazy and spoiled and ignorant. Back to the days when we weeded our gardens instead of squirting Round Up on them so that it gets washed off and downstream to contaminate someone's water supply. Back to the days when we knew exactly what we were eating, what we were feeding our kids.

Our civilization is utterly and completely irresponsible with regard to it's scientific discoveries. Just because we CAN do something, does not mean we should. And if we CAN do something, we sure as heck better figure out what it means to us AND every other living thing on this earth because ultimately it will get back to us. What do you think when they start pulling medications off the market (Vioxx and now another arthritis medicine of the same type) because people are dying on them. Do you not wonder why they weren't tested extensively PRIOR to medicating thousands with them? I do. Does it not make you wonder what sort of criteria the FDA has? It does me.

Genetic Modification of foods is creating whole new strains of resistant viruses and bacteria. Overprescription (and improper prescription) of antibiotics reduces the effectiveness of our immune systems to fight off bacteria and viruses.

As far as I'm concerned, we have a RIGHT TO KNOW all of the risks associated with any new "craze" like splicing insect genes into a grain that's going to end up in my child's breakfast cereal. I have a right to know if there's something in the "Natural Flavoring" on a food label that can't be disclosed because of "proprietary rights" of the manufactuer when it may send my mother into Anaphylactic Shock. I have a right to know if the lake association is pumping gallons of pesticide into our neighborhood lake 8" from my wellhead (true story).

I for one can not understand how anyone can be blase about the subterfuge and stealth with which our government manipulates our choices, our health, and the very future of our planet. At the very least, we should educate ourselves about the true nature of chemicals we may be exposed to, the hazards they pose (do you know how hazardous the contents of your own cupboards are?), and what it is we are eating and/or drinking. Do you know that unless you're drinking organic milk, you're drinking milk containing growth hormones and antibiotics? When you give your child chewable tylenol for a fever, do you know that you're giving him aspartame, which is shown to cause neurologic damage and seizures?

Yeah I guess I've ranted enough. But if just one person reads this and thinks a bit harder about what they're eating or cleaning their toilet bowl with... or just starts reading labels... then I'll feel justified.

And back to the sunscreen comment...

There have been no long term studies on what effects the chemicals in sunscreen have on your body when you put it on every day....

There has, however, been a wonderful long term study done on sun exposure.... This is called human evolution. Cancer is a new thing, the sun is not. The reason that skin cancer and it's possible link to sun exposure has become such an issue (besides that pharmaceutical companies make huge dollars on sunscreen sales) is that insted of being outside all the time and having a tan which is the body's natural protection we all sit under flourecent lights in offices all day and then go out and get fried on the weekends!

There is a reason that our skin makes vitamin D when it is exposed to UV light... we need UV light to live, we evolved under the sun.

The whole sunscare craze is my hot button for ranting!

i dont know much about the sunscreen thing, but here is an article that i read recently. apparently, cancer is 70 million years old.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_975839.htm

of course, dinosaurs aren't humans or dogs, but you get the point.

at the bottom of the article they mention that the dino cancers might be food related. i am not offering this as proof of anything, just food for thought.

zencat, again your reply was along the same lines as mine but much more eloquent. thank you.

"Although the researchers suggest that conifers which made up their diet may have been high in carcinogenic chemicals, Archer thinks that this is unlikely. Cycads, another favourite dinosaur food, is a more likely culprit."


I'll bet they didn't get skin cancer...

I was diagnosed with basal cell carcinoma ON MY FACE at age 25. Since then, the sunscreen I use has physical barriers, not chemical. It is those ingredients, not just the SPF, that are important for covering the whole UV spectrum. Being of northern European descent, I'll take my chances with the zinc oxide, especially since we do spend a lot of time outside in all weather...

That's understandable... I often see papers on skin cancer and basal cell carcinoma seems to have a strong link to sun exposure. However its melanoma that they are often scaring us with and studies I've seen show melanoma's being much more commen on parts of the body not commenly exposed to the sun (so not the face or backs of hands), and much more commen in parts of North America that get less sun than more.

Hey, if you want a silver lining I saw a study recently that says that people that get basal cell carcinoma are much less likely to get internal cancers such as intestinal, breast, and prostate.

I was shocked to learn what I did about sunscreen... the ingredients, I mean. I had been wearing an spf 15 moisturizer forever, at my mom's insistence (her coloring is even fairer than mine)... then the surgeon gave me a chart that explained what ingredients protected against what wavelengths of light... I was missing the longest ones! The physical barriers are what cover those, and a broader range in general.

I agree with your sentiment on chemicals... that there are lots of things that no one knows about how these things will affect us long-term. Just look at all the FDA back-pedalling over Vioxx, etc. I can't even deal with anti-bacterial anything and the disposable cleaning wipe craze blows my mind. I also admit to a general distrust of 'western' medicine...

I agree... don't get me started on antibacterial anything too!

Count me in the anti-antibacterial club :( We are creating monsters.

It is indeed a Brave New World :(

Natural Balance Organics, anyone? they have this at my local Petco for 44$ for a 35 lb bag. The only organic that the petco carries, and they also have it at the small local pet store by my house that i try to give my money to. (i HATE the petco, but sometimes you gotta) any educated opinions about this food? BTW im not asking to debate the value of it being organic, just the ingredients.

:)
Ingredients: Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberry, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera, , Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Vitamin K Supplement, Sodium Selenite.

I'm getting more and more impressed with Natural Balance. I saw the Organics on their website the other night where I also saw they are releasing their new RAW FOOD!!! But only in California and Nevada at this time. I'd love to hear how much it costs!

wow, that food sounds quite organic...lol...i find it odd you found a "supposedly" organic food at a large commercialized petstore such as petco...thats just my opinion, i have to special order my Wellness in from a place our clinic does mass orders from call Vet Purchasing because none of the petstores locally carry it, the super pet (like a petco) used to, but they said the customers that bought it regularly were few and far between for the price it cost them to keep it on the shelf and due to the baking process and non chemical preservatives used on it, the shelf life isnt very long...so they stopped carrying it AND the treats that went with it. So i had to look elsewhere for treats for emma and wound back at home deciding to just make my own.

Anwho ive just spent over an hour reading all your posts on here about organic and i am in love with the idea of naturalizing myself and trying to become the hippie i used to be again LOL back when i was 19 i joined a government programme called Katimavik it changed my life forever but really it was like 11 hippies living and working together for 7 months traveling across the country...one of my work places was an organic beef farm, i LOVED it, the meat was DELICIOUS the veggies were delicious, even half the apple orchard had been converted to organic...and you could pick the apple right off the tree and eat it without worry. And when i lived in Campbell River BC they had whole grocery stores that were dedicated to being organic, esp on the smaller "hippie" islands across the channel (quadra. Cortez isls) I loved it there...so beautiful and clean...(well aside from the pulp mill but Tbay has one too) Anywho the point i am getting at, is you guys hhomer and Zen and Black, you've inspired me to make my home and life as natural as possible...i think this time, i might actually make a good go of it (i tried being vegetarian for a year, but that crumbled quickely LOL)
Thanks guys.
Julie

lol...i find it odd you found a "supposedly" organic food at a large commercialized petstore such as petco...



welcome to san francisco. :) :) :)

looks like a lot of the ingredients are organic. i would, however, be concerned that the main protein meat sources are NOT organic. "natural chicken" and "chicken meal."

It's interesting. Here, Wellness is everywhere. Feed stores, hardware stores, I'm half expecting to see it show up in grocery stores! I don't know why that is. Supply and Demand I guess.

As for the NB Organics... do you guys actually see Organic chicken or beef anywhere? The best I can find is "Natural" chicken, beef & Pork (Coleman Natural beef & pork and Springer Mtn or Bell & Evan's chicken). Coleman doesn't use antibiotics, growth hormones or steriods. Still trying to determine if they irradiate their beef, though.

Do any of you have a Whole Foods Store by you? Awesome store..lots of organic items and not too pricey either.

Kim in Mi

To ZenCat -

I can't find organic meat in Natural Balance Organic either (only fresh natural chicken?). But Karma does have Organic chicken. This is from Natura's website:

"The chicken used in Karma is the Rosie chicken supplied by Petaluma Poultry in Northern California. Rosie was the first chicken in the United States to carry a certified organic label.

Rosie's diet consists of 100% certified organic grains and legumes grown on soil that has been free of pesticides, herbicides and chemical fertilizers for at least three years.

Petaluma Poultry raises Rosie in accordance with the organic protocols independently verified by Oregon Tilth, a third party certifier. Oregon Tilth visits the poultry houses, feed mill and processing plant to confirm that organic practices are followed at all times.

Petaluma Poultry maintains a rigorous audit trail documenting the hatching, growing, processing and distribution of each bird. Rosie is a free range chicken, allowed to run and forage outdoors in an open-air, fenced area outside the barn."

The main downside to Karma is that it is currently over $40 for a 15lb bag. I pay $48 for a 28.6lb bag of EVO.

A huge price hike for a product that does have a significant amount of grains (kamut, brown rice, oats, barley, rice protein, whole wheat, and quinoa).

Plus, does anyone have an opinion as to Karma's use of organic butter instead of another fat source such as chicken fat?

jcatkc... I meant I can't even get human food organic meats/poultry. The best I can do is the "natural" brands I mentioned.

The organic dog foods i've looked at all contain grains, so they're out for us.

Rosie chicken supplied by Petaluma Poultry in Northern California is what i had for dinner tonight. :)
well, as for the meat in NB not being organic, at least it's antibiotic and hormone free. still better than what most people eat.

kppop, yes we have two whole foods stores here. one of my favorites.

okay, here is another

Organix brand dog food. they carry this at my local whole foods. i dont remember the exact price, but i think that it was about 8$ more (yipes) for the big bag than NB organics. And.... when reading the ingredients i noticed that it contains soy. most of my doggy books tell me that this is a no-no. my vet even told me to avoid a dog foods that contains soy. any thoughts on this one?

Organic Chicken, Chicken Meal, Organic Peas, Organic Extruded Soybean Seeds, Organic Barley, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tochopherols, Rosemary, and Citric Acid), Dicalcium Phosphate, Salmon Meal, Natural Liver Flavor, Organic Flaxseed, Dried Whole Egg, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Niacin, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Ascorbic Acid+, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Ribo- flavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamin Mono- nitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Proteinate, Biotin, Dried Fermentation Products of Saccharomyces Cerevisiae, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Aspergillus Niger, Enterococcus Faecum, Trichoderma Longbrachiatum and Bacillus Subtilis (sources of direct fed microbials and digestive enzymes), Glucosamine Hydrochloride+, Chondroitin Sulfate+.

our holistic vet muscle tested both of my dogs for soy and both can tolerate soy just fine, meaning they do not have an allergy/weakness to soy. perhaps it is the possible allergy to soy reason that some dog books suggest staying away from it? in our experience, we have not encountered a problem with soy. i believe one of the 'trace'/ 'other' ingredients in the vitamin -e soft gels we use for our dogs also contains soy. i would have be suspect of soy if we had not tested for it as an allergy beforehand.

Dogs just aren't designed to have grains or soy as their diet... just because they can tolerate it doesn't mean they will thrive on it.

We could survive eating only McDonalds...

True, but it doesn't hurt them to have grains if they are restricted and not crazy insanely the largest portion of their diet, They provide them with a good source of fibre and help dogs with anal gland problems bulk up their poop. I was very excited today to visit the bulk store here in town for dog treat supplies and find ORGANIC nearly everything i needed...i did the happy dance! But i would stay away from certain grains likkkkke....white/whole wheat flour, corn, some variaties of soy.
I bought thinks like stoneground organic oat bran and barley wheat etc...

Karma seems to have an awfully lot of grains and i notice that wheat is one of them..

as long as your dog(s) tolerate their food well and they are healthy, then they probably don't have problems with those grains. I'm not saying wheat is a BAD thing, its how much is used, and of what "grade" If its processed wheat...boooo...if its Stoneground organic whole wheat, its alot better for them, its wholesome and unprocessed.
you can always contact the company and ask.