I am shortly going to become the ecstatic owner of a male lab puppy, just over 2 months old. After doing much research and planning, I called up the breeder with a few more questions and we talked about food.

This particular breeder has a very wonderful family of labs with a great history, and he has always used the chicken and rice Pro Plan for puppies... but I know nothing about it, and reviews are perfectly split.

Is there any way to really know about a food before bringing the puppy home? And second, are there any foods that a few people could recommend for a young lab!?

Thanks so much for any conversation!

- Phil

not a great food but if it works.....

Recommendations as to a change once the puppy is home?

Congratulations on getting a new puppy.

You can drive yourself crazy if you research and read on dog food, not only on this forum, but also on the net.

Please do not change the dog food that is being currently fed to your puppy immediately. That will have bad consequences (upset stomach, runny stools, etc) that are not worth it. Give the puppy some time to acclimate to his new environment before adding the stress of changing foods and even if you choose to change, make sure you do it over a 1-2 week time period starting off very slowly.

With all of the above being said, my breeder was feeding Purina Puppy Chow (The bad of the bad on this forum). After doing more research, I decided to make the move to Purina Pro Plan (probably the best that Purina offers). The make up of the ingredients is an upgrade over Puppy Chow, but not nearly up to par with some of the better brands that are highly recommended on this website.

As Betty said above, "but if it works....."

Not every food will work with every dog. It may be a trial and error before you find what works with your puppy now, and in the future.

I will say that I have seen the following brands recommended, or not really bad mouthed on this forum:

Canidae ALS - I am not familiar with this brand, but for some reason, I keep seeing Canidae associated with grain free. I do not think grain free is healthy for puppies, but I may be misspeaking. I do not know the cost of this product.

I just found Kirklands dog/puppy food from Costco. You can purchase a 20 lb bag for $11.50 at Costco. This is a very good kibble that has some very good ingredients. This is a major upgrade from both puppy chow ($25 for 35 lb bag) and Pro Plan ($40 - $44 for 37.5 lb bag). I personally think that it would hold up with most of the holistic brands out there, and at a fraction of the cost.

I will give you some direct feedback from the change of food on my puppy:

On Puppy Chow, he seemed to poop a lot, and when I started feeding him more as he grew, he poop also got much larger. Although I thought his coat was good, I did not really know what to look at.

When I changed to Pro Plan, I have noticed that his poop has been reduced, not only in # times per day, but also in quantity at each squat (From what I understand, the better the ingredients, the more digestion and absorption that occurs inside the body and less fillers, waste to dispose of). I also have noticed that his coat has become very shiny when compared to before feeding this food. As my wife likes to use a term from an Adam Sandler movie, his coat is now silky smooth.....(maybe an exaggeration, but it is really nice right now)

The one down side that I have noticed though, it is appears that he has a few spots that are balding on his legs (it appears from him biting them with front teeth). I will be discussing this with vet on Friday when we go for visit and shots.

Since I just started the change to Pro Plan and have a 37 pound bag, I will most likely stay on Pro Plan for at least 6 months and a couple of bags and then I will switch to Kirkland's brand, which I see as an upgrade (and assuming his body will like it too).

Sorry for the long winded response, but I tried to offer as much feedback and highlights as possible that I have read in the past month or so.
Good luck.

Do what is right for your puppy.

We feed Marley Eukanuba large breed puppy. We started her on this because Eukanuba also makes a food that is specifically for Labs. It has all the good stuff they need for their joints and all that. She LOVES her food. She used to pick around her old food, but when we switched she started cleaning her bowl.

Cleanest..safest food is California Natural....if your puppy does well on Chicken Pro Plan.... after the stressful change of the new home....he should do wonderful on Cal Nat Chicken...all Natura products are human grade and it is the best Pet Food Company in the States today...

Pro Plan has become a low end food this past year...using "Animal Fat" which can very well contain any animal including some that were family pets...Five years ago I would tell you to feed Pro Plan..today it is a terrible food....and a profit driven company...using some of the worst ingredients instead of healthy ones...

Cal Nat Puppy...http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1252

I started on Wainwright, changed from pedigree, this is one we get here in northern Ireland, does anyone know anything here

Stick with what the breeder has been feeding for a couple of weeks, as others have said. I, too, cannot recommend the ingredients in the Pro Plan: glutens, brewer's rice, animal digest, etc. - as ones that give nutritional benefit to dogs over the long term.

There are many decent kibbles on the market these days. Som of them are by companies I believe have a good track record:

Healthwise (all life stages), Innova for puppies and California Natural for puppies: all made by the Natura Co.

Acana Prairie Harvest by Champion Pet Food Co. in Canada. It is a grain free all life stages formula with 34% protein and 17% fat and appropriate calcium and phosphorus levels for puppies. Grain free is fine for puppies as long as the calcium/phosphorus levels are in line. There is no specific need for dogs to eat rice. It's fine, but not a need.

Cleanest..safest food is California Natural....if your puppy does well on Chicken Pro Plan.... after the stressful change of the new home....he should do wonderful on Cal Nat Chicken...all Natura products are human grade and it is the best Pet Food Company in the States today...

Pro Plan has become a low end food this past year...using "Animal Fat" which can very well contain any animal including some that were family pets...Five years ago I would tell you to feed Pro Plan..today it is a terrible food....and a profit driven company...using some of the worst ingredients instead of healthy ones...

Cal Nat Puppy...http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1252

You have made some big allegations in this post, can you prove what you say or is this your opinion???

I, too, cannot recommend the ingredients in the Pro Plan: glutens, brewer's rice, animal digest, etc. - as ones that give nutritional benefit to dogs over the long term.

Why? Do you have personal experience or scientific fact to back up your statement?

perry mason is dead.

Ozzie has been on pro plan since i got him. He does wonderfully on it.

I know many breeders who feed Pro Plan and are happy with it.

The dead pet thing is a bunch of bunk, in my opinion, I have not seen any facts.

I feed Euk. and have been happy with it, for many generations of dogs. I personally would not feed any dog food that has not been fed to multiple generations of dogs. I want to know not only if the dog develops well on the food but that it is healthy long term, for multiple generations.

When we got Cooper he was on Pro Plan and we gradually switched him to Wellness large breed puppy. After the switch I noticed that he didn't have gas anymore, it was worth it just for that!

We raised Cassie on Proplan Large breed puppy and she did great. We now feed the Proplan selects. We have tried other foods but also come back to the selects because both our girls do great on it. Again, each dog is different so you can only judge by what your pup is doing good on.

Pro Plan Puppy is a GREAT food to raise a puppy on and your breeder is probably doing it for a reason...talk to them about it.

Pro Plan Puppy is a GREAT food to raise a puppy on and your breeder is probably doing it for a reason...talk to them about it.

Ditto! Don't let the California Natural fanatics tell you otherwise.

perry mason is dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHqebO8aAc4&NR=1

:brow:

There is nothing wrong with Proplan, my 5 month lab cant tolerate the high end dog foods, she eats beneful with the occasional cooked rice, chicken or hamburger, and she is thriving and and as healthy as it gets

Feed your dog what works best for them

You have made some big allegations in this post, can you prove what you say or is this your opinion???

It is my opinion based on learning what makes high quality pet food....the bold below is what I mean as poor quality of ingredients......and in Ann Martin's book, Food Pets Die for....Pro Plan was one of the foods mentioned...that tested for having the drugs used to euthanize companion animals....buy a copy of her book if you don't believe me...it is sold on Amazon .com ...http://www.amazon.com/Food-Pets-Die-Shocking-Facts/product-reviews/0939165317/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Do some research as to where Pro Plan sources a lot of it's ingredients....China being the one that scares me the most....and they are very proud about it when you call them to verify that fact...

Feed this product or not...it is up to every dog owner to learn...don't trust these Pet Food Companies to be your buddy...you have to stay on top of there ever changing of ingredients to reap more profit..
INGREDIENTS:

Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), whole grain corn, corn bran, dried egg product, animal digest, calcium phosphate, fish oil, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

And what Ann Martin apparently left out of her book was the conclusion of the FDA test which proved that there are no dead cats or dogs in the dog food. I again will question the validity of an author who writes a book and leaves the conclusion of the tests out.

Here is an article explaining the FDA test and how to interpret the results accurately:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_87105434/


During the 1990s, the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) received reports from veterinarians that pentobarbital seemed to be losing its effectiveness for anesthesia in dogs. Based on these reports, the center decided to investigate the theory that the dogs were exposed to pentobarbital through dog food, and that this exposure was making them less responsive to pentobarbital when it was used as a drug.

CVM developed and used a sophisticated process to detect and quantify minute amounts of pentobarbital in dog food. Upon finding pentobarbital residues in some samples of dry dog food, CVM scientists conducted further tests that led them to conclude that dogs eating dry dog food are unlikely to have any adverse health effects from the low levels of pentobarbital found in the dog food samples tested.

CVM scientists also developed a test to detect dog and cat DNA in the protein of dog food. Since pentobarbital is used to euthanize dogs and cats at animal shelters, finding pentobarbital in rendered feed ingredients could suggest that pets were rendered and used in pet food. Test results indicated a complete absence of protein material that would have been derived from euthanized dogs or cats. As a result of their study, CVM scientists assume the source of the pentobarbital in dog food is cattle or horses euthanized and then rendered.

Rendered pets or not, you can't deny that animal digest is literally poop. I just can't justify spending money to feed my dog poop.

It is my opinion based on learning what makes high quality pet food.

Oh, ok, that's a relief. ;)

Rendered pets or not, you can't deny that animal digest is literally poop. I just can't justify spending money to feed my dog poop.

Animal digest isn't animal waste, it's actually waste animal tissue. Cartilage is a good example of one such product and is a natural source of Glucosamine and Chondroitin. Wild animals and raw fed pets commonly eat these products.

Rendered pets or not, you can't deny that animal digest is literally poop. I just can't justify spending money to feed my dog poop.

Animal Digest
AAFCO: A material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed. If it bears a name descriptive of its kind or flavor(s), it must correspond thereto.


What is actually interesting is that some dog foods that many here like advertise that they use connective tissue, bone and cartilage. They found the right way to market an ingredient.

Why? Do you have personal experience or scientific fact to back up your statement?

The AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) sets guidelines and definitions for animal feed, including pet foods.

# Animal Digest - material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed.
# Animal Fat - is obtained from the tissues of mammals and/or poultry in the ********** processes of rendering or extracting. It consists predominantly of glyceride esters of fatty acids and contains no additions of free fatty acids. If an antioxidant is used, the common name or names must be indicated, followed by the words "used as a preservative".
Brewer's Rice - the dried extracted residue of rice resulting from the manufacture of wort (liquid portion of malted grain) or beer and may contain pulverized dried spent hops in an amount not to exceed 3 percent.
Corn Gluten Meal - the dried residue from corn after the removal of the larger part of the starch and germ, and the separation of the bran by the process employed in the wet milling manufacture of corn starch or syrup, or by enzymatic treatment of the endosperm.
Poultry By-Product Meal - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

Like most people on this board I don't have a fistful of studies to attach to each post. The definitions listed above are neutrally worded definitions set by AAFCO ( the association that sets minimum standards for pet foods). Based on the reading of these alone, I don't see anything that would make most people purposely seek out the above ingredients to feed their dogs for the long term. I haven't said to myself "Hmmm . . . hope my dog consumed enough poultry by-product meal today."

Sometimes you just have to find what information you can to make choices without necessarily finding an exact study to lead the way. I don't know of any study proving that eating Hostess Twinkies for breakfast everyday is not the best idea; or any study that proves my eating granola with yogurt and fruit everyday is great. But based on what I can find out about the ingredients of both, I sure don't have any trouble making a choice.

Mine is 14 months.....got him at 7 weeks. Breeder had him on Eukanuba large breed pup. He did well on it, but I personally didn't like the food. When he was about 4 1/2 months or so....I changed him (gradually) to what I thought was a good puppy food (Innova)...result...runs. Then tried another good one (wellness)...same thing. Then one more (Solid Gold), same thing. Then vet trips, stool samples...thought there had to be something wrong with him as I figured it couldn't be these good foods. After $$$, there was nothing wrong with him. As a last result...back on Eukanuba...next day, perfect stools. So my advice....if he is doing good....leave him til he turns one, then try adult food. Also, I made the mistake of introducing him to numerous foods, treats. If you end up with an allergy problem....makes it almost impossible to do an elimination diet to find out what the allergens are.

Ann Martin's book, Food Pets Die For, is a must read.... surely she would be broke fighting lawsuits if what she says is not fact... I bought the book, have read most of it this past week... and she backs up everything...

I get a real kick out of all the"Love" given to the corporate giants who don't give squat about what they put in an animal feed... If brand loyalty is your thing...what other than paying top dollar for suspect ingredients are you getting ? Results? or what you are actually seeing is the results of good breeding?

People like myself are the type that just don't feel right feeding a diet every meal to my pets that I would not eat myself...Sure I may have a Pizza or a Sub... but not every meal...And I would have no problem eating a bowl of Cal Nat ....just would need a little warm water and some salt and pepper.. :D

For some people their pets are like their children... they just want the best for them...if you feel Pro Plan is the best? That is by all means your personal preference and what you should feed your dog...

Menadione (Vitamin K3)...some good reading about an ingredient that is found in all the cheap foods because they don't use ingredients that are rich in Vit..K


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione
Here is a list of negative effects of menadione on the body. It is incomplete, since my English medical terminology is lacking and I was simply not able to translate the more complicated scientific phrases into proper English:

* causes cytotoxicity in liver cells
* causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions
* considerably weakens the immune system
* possible mutagenic effects
* damages the natural vitamin K cycle
* has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in ********** food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested)
* causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses
* disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis
* is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K
* builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives
* causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes
* causes allergic reactions and eczema

Recommendations as to a change once the puppy is home?


Whatever you choose, be sure to slowly ease your pup into it. I would leave him on Pro Plan for a couple weeks at least.

People like myself are the type that just don't feel right feeding a diet every meal to my pets that I would not eat myself...Sure I may have a Pizza or a Sub... but not every meal...And I would have no problem eating a bowl of Cal Nat ....just would need a little warm water and some salt and pepper.. :D



I would be surprised if some of you guys/gals don't eat it.:D

Pro Plan Puppy is a GREAT food to raise a puppy on and your breeder is probably doing it for a reason...talk to them about it.

Ditto! Don't let the California Natural fanatics tell you otherwise.

Another Ditto! If you spent any time researching breeders and then upon long last decided on this one and to get a puppy from them, why would you NOT trust them on the food they choose??

It's true, not all dogs do well on the same food. That's why there are so many companies and brands, because if all dogs could be fed the same generic kibble, we wouldn't have all the different varieties.

Chances are that your breeder has been through the food roller coaster themselves, and has decided that for their dogs, Pro Plan is the one that works best for them. That should count for something, if you are going to trust them enough to buy a dog from them.

If you want to feed a better, more NATURAL food, that's fine. But I would buy a 20# bag of the Pro Plan puppy and not consider changing until that is near the end. I would also talk to you breeder about any worries you might have, and be sure that if you change brands you aren't voiding the contract.

Ann Martin's book, Food Pets Die For, is a must read.... surely she would be broke fighting lawsuits if what she says is not fact... I bought the book, have read most of it this past week... and she backs up everything...That's the best you got? There is so much dissention over dog food, you think the dog food companies would really waste any time suing her over a book of her opinions? I personally don't think so.

And as far as backing up every thing she says??? Geez, you must realize that we can back up every rumor heard on the internet. Just look at the whole "raised feeder" issue. There are studies that say it CAUSES bloat and studies that say it STOPS bloat. We've got the Pros/Cons of Nuetering early. We've got the Pros/Cons of removing dew claws. I can find support for any side of a debate and cite credible resources these days.

Cassie came to me on pro plan and was doing fine. after reading a bunch here i switched her. it was a mistake. i had 5 months of loose stool, until i put her on adult food. could not find a puppy food that agreed with her.

Now they are on Wellness Core Ocean. (You shouldnt feed this to a puppy) I like the grain free, and Wellness is an all natural kibble. But Cassie didnt do well on the puppy formula. go figure.

every pup is different. there are better foods than pro plan but that doesnt mean they will tolerate it. i would keep the pup on pro plan for a while until she is acclimated then you can consider switching very slowly. or not. many dogs do well on pro plan. no right answer no matter what anyone says.

Seriously...you're gonna drive yourself nuts with this issue, trust me...I've done it. Our breeder fed Pro Plan and while we honestly aren't the biggest fans of the breeder (whole other story) I do agree that you should keep your puppy on what the breeder was feeding, at least at first. Don't give the poor baby another big change to deal with right now!

As for the food debate...I jumped right on the all natural/human grade meat/etc food bandwagon soon after we got Brady and I don't really have much to show for it, except a lighter wallet. We've fed Canidae, Eagle Pack Holistic, Artemis, Orijen, TOTW, Natural Balance, Canidae Grain Free among others. Can't say Brady's ever really benefited from them (he has skin problems). Right now we feed IAMS because we are on a budget, can get it at BJ's for a great price, and to be honest the dog actually looks better now than he has in months. Not saying I'll always feed IAMS....when things settle down (we're buying a house right now) and we're back to our normal budget, I'll probably find a local petfood store and buy something reasonable from there....or not. IAMS actually is working great for Brady and I don't really see a need to change. He's on the IAMS Healthy Naturals line and doing great.

i almost have to laugh how we come full circle.
i was the first responder and went back to read what i wrote.
hahahaha.

That's the best you got? There is so much dissention over dog food, you think the dog food companies would really waste any time suing her over a book of her opinions? I personally don't think so.

And as far as backing up every thing she says??? Geez, you must realize that we can back up every rumor heard on the internet. Just look at the whole "raised feeder" issue. There are studies that say it CAUSES bloat and studies that say it STOPS bloat. We've got the Pros/Cons of Nuetering early. We've got the Pros/Cons of removing dew claws. I can find support for any side of a debate and cite credible resources these days.

Honestly.. Is that all you got....? Buy the book and read it.... and understand why most of the Pet Food Giants are located near Rendering Plants...

You can always tell when someone won't take the time to learn or read the book...Everything is backed by fact...

Feed a dog anything like the Purina Products that list un-named "Animal " waste products and you really will be recycling ...in a way that makes your dog a cannibal...Doesn't make you a bad person.... in my opinion...just a dog owner that feeds by advertising $$ spent to make you feel warm and cozy...

It never seems to amaze me whenever we get one of these food product posts that it turns into a full out assault on whichever company the question is asked about whenever someone does not agree with that particular dog food. I always used to think that the two topics that I did not want to discuss were religion and politics because no matter which side you were on, you would never agree with the other side. I guess I need to add dog food to that list.

I am just hoping that we did not turn off the original poster to this forum because of it. You came to the right place to find any and all information that will pertain to your new puppy. Just take every single post with a grain of salt (including this one) and realize that everyone has their own opinion and that you have to take the information you read here and fit it in with your own beliefs regarding every issue, including food, health, vet visits, etc. This forum has helped me out quite a bit in the past 6 weeks as I deal with my new puppy (and first time puppy owner).

The the original poster, as you can see from a lot of the posts, they have offered suggestions as to which food their dogs have been successful on, including Pro Plan (mine included although I am only two weeks into the switch without problems). There are also many dogs that have done good on Cal Nat or Canidae and all of the other holistic type brands. And lastly, there have been some posters that tried the holistic, or BAD brands and have gone back to one or the other for many reasons.

As I said originally, and a few others have also said, please keep your puppy on Pro Plan when you get him for a time period that is appropriate for you (I would suggest at least one month, only on opinion) so that he has time to adapt to his new environment without the added stress of also adjusting to a new food. I personally think that Pro Plan is an adequate food for your puppy because that is what the Breeder is currently feeding it. It is not Purina Puppy Chow, but yes it is still by the "big bad" Purina pet food company.

Find a food that fits your budget. If Pro Plan at $40-$42 per 37.5 bag fits your budget, go for it. It Cal Nat or Canidae at whatever they cost fit your budget and you believe everything that is said on these forums about the quality of all brands, go for it.

If you want a good food that is better than Pro Plan (based only on ingredients) and does not qualify as great only because of name (my opinion), then try Kirkland's from Costco for $11.50 for 20 pound bag, if it fits your budget.

Good luck and happy biting with your new puppy.
Doug

I am shortly going to become the ecstatic owner of a male lab puppy, just over 2 months old. After doing much research and planning, I called up the breeder with a few more questions and we talked about food.

This particular breeder has a very wonderful family of labs with a great history, and he has always used the chicken and rice Pro Plan for puppies... but I know nothing about it, and reviews are perfectly split.

Is there any way to really know about a food before bringing the puppy home? And second, are there any foods that a few people could recommend for a young lab!?

Thanks so much for any conversation!

- Phil


Hi phil....I am just up the road from you.

I say, like the others that you should listen to your breeder, draw on their experience and go from there.

The very sad fact is good foods like Eukanuba and Pro Plan have been ruined by Corporate Giants...seeking profit over health..


Un named animal Fat and animal digest belong in Old Roy...not in high priced foods.. The OP knows it...and asked ...

Most Pet Food contains around 12-20 per cent Fat in the dry kibbles... Using un-named animal in that diet gives you a different food every time you purchase it...as Ann Martin taalks about it in her book.. the Rendering plants do not get the same animals daily.. a big batch of euthanized dogs and cats one day...pigs the next...goats....cows....another..

In a 1997 article in the NY Times, reporter Sandra Blakeslee quotes Chuck Ellis, a spokesman for the city's sanitation dept: " Los Angeles sends 200 tons of euthanized cats and dogs to West Coast Rendering in Los Angeles, every month" from the book Food Pets Die For, by Ann N. Martin

watch this episode of Dirty Jobs ... only one small renderer nationwide would let them in to film.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4U_kchIW8A

.And I would have no problem eating a bowl of Cal Nat ....just would need a little warm water and some salt and pepper.. :D

For some people their pets are like their children... they just want the best for them...if you feel Pro Plan is the best? That is by all means your personal preference and what you should feed your dog...

Youtube anyone???????

Your last statement is 100% correct, about treating their dogs like their children, and that is a good thing........

I've only been on this board a few months and amazed to see how often this topic comes up.

Doesn't anyone ever use the "search" function to look at what's already been said ad infinitum?

Just saying.

I've only been on this board a few months and amazed to see how often this topic comes up.

Doesn't anyone ever use the "search" function to look at what's already been said ad infinitum?

Just saying.

then what would we talk about.

Even when it comes to their Vitamin pre mix.... a very important thing to look for IN PET FOOD is chelated or proteinated minerials for proper absorption...they use the cheapest ones...that are not chelated...

and people wonder why their dogs coats get brittle, lack luster, and shed excessively...

then what would we talk about.

How we all wished we had new posts to discuss.

In all honesty, it all depends on how forum saavy the OP is. I can say that when I first started reading forums, I never knew there was a search function, so I posted a question that I wanted an answer to. I would then always get the "use the search function" post......which made me wonder why someone would waste their time typing that response back, rather than just ignore it since they had nothing to add, or offer to the question.

I think it took me using two different forums to realize there was a search button and that you just had to find it on all forums.

However, with that said, I will say that sometimes, there is always a new poster to the forum that may also have a new opinion or information to share, so what is the harm?

Another Ditto! If you spent any time researching breeders and then upon long last decided on this one and to get a puppy from them, why would you NOT trust them on the food they choose??

Couldn't agree more. Enjoy your new puppy!

Even when it comes to their Vitamin pre mix.... a very important thing to look for IN PET FOOD is chelated or proteinated minerials for proper absorption...they use the cheapest ones...that are not chelated...

and people wonder why their dogs coats get brittle, lack luster, and shed excessively...

In other words......chelated or proteinated minerals are organic. We get it. Organic is the proper way to feed your puppy/dog.

However, with that said, I will say that sometimes, there is always a new poster to the forum that may also have a new opinion or information to share, so what is the harm?


I agree. And I'll say again Uplander, you really should call Natura and ask for a job as a sales rep. Crap, try for President and CEO! ;) I have never in my life seen someone push a food more then you. I get it.....I think we all do.....it's good......it works for Satch.....and it worked for Tide. But do you really have to go on and on and on about how WONDERFUL it is?

To the OP. Every dog is different, as I'm sure you know. If Pro Plan works for your pup, then stick with it. If not, then switch. Good luck!

The very sad fact is good foods like Eukanuba and Pro Plan have been ruined by Corporate Giants...seeking profit over health..

Un named animal Fat and animal digest belong in Old Roy...not in high priced foods.. The OP knows it...and asked ...


Euk states that all animal based proteins are fit for human consumption. They can trace all ingredients and their origin.

As far as the dog food manufacturer plants are near rendering plants, so what? I can see a prison from the corner of my backyard but it doesn't mean my kids are criminals.

To the OP- Feed what you are comfortable feeding after talking to your breeder. Some breeders are very insistent on feeding certain foods because they trust it and it works for their line of dogs, they've fed it many generations with excellent results. They do not always trust the newest, current fad popular dog food because it hasn't been around long enough for them to see if hips, joints, eyes develop correctly. So just make sure you are not voiding the guarantee by feeding a different food and ask if the breeder has tried other foods so if one hasn't worked for her you can avoid that food.

Best of luck to you on your new pup.

In other words......chelated or proteinated minerals are organic. We get it. Organic is the proper way to feed your puppy/dog.

What does the term "chelated" mean when used to describe a mineral supplement?

Chelated basically means "firmly attached", usually to an amino acid or other organic component so that the two do not disassociate in the digestive system.

Organic compound
In physics, a material that contains carbon and hydrogen and usually other elements such as nitrogen, sulfur and oxygen. Organic compounds can be found in nature or they can be synthesized in the laboratory.

Just wanted to pass along that the word "organic" in the discussion of chelated minerals doesn't really have anything to do with the word "organic"
when talking about eating organically grown produce, meats, etc.

Euk states that all animal based proteins are fit for human consumption. They can trace all ingredients and their origin.


Then why are they not stating which animal it came from ? Chicken.. Pork... Beef...Dog ... or Cat... except for meeting the legal requirement...they never know ? In China they eat dogs and cats.. it is very much a staple of their diets...perhaps that is their source of " animal Fat" think about it...:eek:

What does the term "chelated" mean when used to describe a mineral supplement?

Chelated basically means "firmly attached", usually to an amino acid or other organic component so that the two do not disassociate in the digestive system.

Organic compound
In physics, a material that contains carbon and hydrogen and usually other elements such as nitrogen, sulfur and oxygen. Organic compounds can be found in nature or they can be synthesized in the laboratory.

Just wanted to pass along that the word "organic" in the discussion of chelated minerals doesn't really have anything to do with the word "organic"
when talking about eating organically grown produce, meats, etc.


I never said organic produce, meats, etc. I said organic. And since we are talking about minerals, I would assume that my post would specifically relate to organic minerals, not meat, produce, etc. But you know what they say when one assumes......

Chelates and proteinates (according to Wikipedia...and yes, I know, wikipedia is not the end all be all)

Chelates are organic molecules, normally consisting of 2 organic parts with an essential trace mineral occupying a central position and held in place by covalent bonding. Proteinates are a particular type of chelate, in which the mineral is chelated with short-chain peptides and amino acids derived from hydrolysed soy proteins, and containing in the order of 10-20% of the essential trace mineral.

Couldn't agree more. Enjoy your new puppy!


Very funny how some breeders actually feed Human Grade feeds and their dogs do exceptionally well in the ring... Even winning at Potomac ...so it does say a lot about different breeders and what you can feed.. All Labs don't need Pro Plan..do they...?

I agree. And I'll say again Uplander, you really should call Natura and ask for a job as a sales rep. Crap, try for President and CEO! ;) I have never in my life seen someone push a food more then you. I get it.....I think we all do.....it's good......it works for Satch.....and it worked for Tide. But do you really have to go on and on and on about how WONDERFUL it is?




:biggrin1:

LuckyLuna, you made a statement saying that you cannot recommend Pro Plan because the ingredients don't give nutritional benefit to dogs over the long term. Some of the ingredients that you find offensive are high in nutrients and trace elements. Do you peel your fruits & vegetables before you eat them? Most of the nutrients and fiber are in the peel but some people throw them out as waste. Some people will recycle this waste (or by product) as compost knowing that it has great value in improving the soil and adding nutrients back to the earth. If you only ate the "tenderloin" over the long term, you would develop deficiencies and probably not live as long. A dog that is given an animal carcass to eat will leave no waste.

About Brewers rice:
Brewers rice is broken rice, it is a milled rice kernel that is 1/4 to 1/2 the size of a full kernel and is a byproduct of rice milling. AAFCO definition- Brewers rice is the small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice.


Broken Rice.
The kernel of rice can become cracked in the field, during the drying process, or during the milling process. Cracks are usually caused by moisture migrating too quickly within the kernel (drying too fast, or moisture being added back to a dry kernel). Often these cracks cause the kernels to break during milling and so broken rice is generated. The percentage of broken kernels (relative to total milled rice) generated during milling usually ranges from 12% to 24% in the U.S. Most brokens are removed during the milling process to less than 4% in order to give the consumer a high quality rice. Broken rice tends to get mushy during cooking and makes a poor quality table rice. There are different sizes of broken kernels. With long grain rice in the south brokens are often separated into different sizes. From largest to small they are called; second heads, screenings, and brewers. In California, where the kernel is smaller to begin with, the brokens kernels are only separated into second heads and brewers.

In the past most broken rice in the U.S. went to the beer industry. Today, most of the rice going into beer is now whole kernel. The dog food industry uses the majority of the broken rice. They tend to start with the lower quality brewers rice and then move into the more expensive screenings and second heads as needed. The rice flour industry is growing and tends to use the higher quality sorted second heads and screenings. The beer industry still takes some of the higher quality second heads. Some brokens are now being exported to Japan out of California.

http://www.sagevfoods.com/MainPages/Rice101/Types.htm#broken

Broken rice gets soft and mushy when cooked. From a nutritional standpoint, brokens are the same as whole grain. But the texture is poor and brokens tend to have more bran, which affects flavor. http://www.sagevfoods.com/MainPages/Rice101/Quality.htm

Broken rice is used in many Asian recipes.

Your recommendation seems to be based on what you're reading in some definitions and not personal experience or science. You have a right to make choices but is it right to "not recommend" a food based on irrational fears? This forum is doing a disservice when people come here and are made to feel guilty for feeding a food that is working for their puppy or recommended by their breeder. Reading this thread alone should show you that dogs are harmed by bad advice. You can't say one dog food is better than another or is higher in quality by the ingredient list alone. There would be less remorse if we used our experience with dog foods to help people instead of projecting our fears or beliefs in a negative way.

LuckyLuna, you made a statement saying that you cannot recommend Pro Plan because the ingredients don't give nutritional benefit to dogs over the long term. Some of the ingredients that you find offensive are high in nutrients and trace elements. Do you peel your fruits & vegetables before you eat them? Most of the nutrients and fiber are in the peel but some people throw them out as waste. Some people will recycle this waste (or by product) as compost knowing that it has great value in improving the soil and adding nutrients back to the earth. If you only ate the "tenderloin" over the long term, you would develop deficiencies and probably not live as long. A dog that is given an animal carcass to eat will leave no waste.

About Brewers rice:
Brewers rice is broken rice, it is a milled rice kernel that is 1/4 to 1/2 the size of a full kernel and is a byproduct of rice milling. AAFCO definition- Brewers rice is the small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice.

http://www.sagevfoods.com/MainPages/Rice101/Types.htm#broken

http://www.sagevfoods.com/MainPages/Rice101/Quality.htm

Broken rice is used in many Asian recipes.

Your recommendation seems to be based on what you're reading in some definitions and not personal experience or science. You have a right to make choices but is it right to "not recommend" a food based on irrational fears? This forum is doing a disservice when people come here and are made to feel guilty for feeding a food that is working for their puppy or recommended by their breeder. Reading this thread alone should show you that dogs are harmed by bad advice. You can't say one dog food is better than another or is higher in quality by the ingredient list alone. There would be less remorse if we used our experience with dog foods to help people instead of projecting our fears or beliefs in a negative way.

dogs are harmed by feeding higher quality diets?.... What hogwash.... they will actually be healthier... but your argument is classic to justify all the junk the large producers put into some diets...funny how Pro Plan actually tested positive for sodium pentobarbital....pg 33 of ann martin's food pets die for...right in the mix with nutro ..... heinz .... ol' roy

That was interesting information Doppler. Thank you for providing it.

One of the funniest arguments I see is when they say that Chicken, or Beef or Lamb of Fish is not good quality because it is not in the meal format, so therefore, you really need to move it down on the list of ingredients because so much water is still in the chicken (and for some reason, I see 80% water used).

If that was the case, whenever, I put my 1 pound boneless chicken breasts on the grill to cook for dinner, my wife and I would only be eating a mere 2 ounces of chicken together after it is cooked. For some reason, although they do shrink during the cooking process, it is never the 80% that is used. I would say more like 20% shrinkage....... I have no facts or base for stating above, just observations from cooking real chicken and the end result of cooked chicken from the grill.

Uplander, give it a break.

That was interesting information Doppler. Thank you for providing it.

One of the funniest arguments I see is when they say that Chicken, or Beef or Lamb of Fish is not good quality because it is not in the meal format, so therefore, you really need to move it down on the list of ingredients because so much water is still in the chicken (and for some reason, I see 80% water used).

If that was the case, whenever, I put my 1 pound boneless chicken breasts on the grill to cook for dinner, my wife and I would only be eating a mere 2 ounces of chicken together after it is cooked. For some reason, although they do shrink during the cooking process, it is never the 80% that is used. I would say more like 20% shrinkage....... I have no facts or base for stating above, just observations from cooking real chicken and the end result of cooked chicken from the grill.

you are very wrong... Dry kibble has 90 % of the water removed after cooking...if ingredients are listed by weight prior to cooking Chicken meal which has the water removed before cooking...so if seeing chicken whole before cooking is 80 % water it actually is very little of the diet... you have fallen for the oldest trick in the book... Purina will not even tell you over the phone how much protein comes from meat... that's a bummer.... why ? because they don't want their marketing ruined by telling you the truth...most of the protein is coming from the glutens...

dofunny how Pro Plan actually tested positive for sodium pentobarbital....pg 33 of ann martin's food pets die for...right in the mix with nutro ..... heinz .... ol' roy

Which version of her book are you referring to 1, 2, or 3? Only reason I ask is because in the 12 years since she first published the book, I imagine that quite a few things have changed for the better at ALL pet food companies. Has ProPlan failed this test in her 2007 edition book, or was it the 2002 version? If I remember correctly, I thought ProPlan went through a ingredient formula change within the past year (although do not know details). Does that mean it STILL fails this test, etc. Just curious?

Per your recommendation, I am going to pick a copy of this book up because I want to see what all of the hype is about with regard to her and her research. I unfortunately take fanatics on both sides of any argument with a grain of salt, but I am willing to read what they preach and see if it changes my position.

One of the funniest arguments I see is when they say that Chicken, or Beef or Lamb of Fish is not good quality because it is not in the meal format, so therefore, you really need to move it down on the list of ingredients because so much water is still in the chicken (and for some reason, I see 80% water used).

If that was the case, whenever, I put my 1 pound boneless chicken breasts on the grill to cook for dinner, my wife and I would only be eating a mere 2 ounces of chicken together after it is cooked. For some reason, although they do shrink during the cooking process, it is never the 80% that is used. I would say more like 20% shrinkage....... I have no facts or base for stating above, just observations from cooking real chicken and the end result of cooked chicken from the grill.

Actually, the meat meal vs just meat thing is completely factual. You're not cooking your chicken a nearly a high enough temperature to make a "meal". Your 20% shrunken chicken still has a ton of water in it's chemical makeup.

you are very wrong... Dry kibble has 90 % of the water removed after cooking...if ingredients are listed by weight prior to cooking Chicken meal which has the water removed before cooking...so if seeing chicken whole before cooking is 80 % water it actually is very little of the diet... you have fallen for the oldest trick in the book... Purina will not even tell you over the phone how much protein comes from meat... that's a bummer.... why ? because they don't want their marketing ruined by telling you the truth...most of the protein is coming from the glutens...

My point was I can not see chicken having 80% water before cooking. I do not see chicken meal having 80% more protein than chicken, because I do not believe that chicken has 80% water.

Also, for clarification, can you tell me for sure that ingredients are listed before cooking (as I do not know the answer). The reason I ask is because you used the word "if" in your statement. If means nothing.......It is or it is not......


Thanks

dogs are harmed by feeding higher quality diets?.... What hogwash....

If a puppy is doing well on a diet then let them be. Yes, dogs are harmed by diarrhea. Bloody diarrhea and leaky gut can set up the start of allergies. High quality cannot be determined from an ingredient list.

have you noticed the OP hasn't posted since the original question?

My point was I can not see chicken having 80% water before cooking. I do not see chicken meal having 80% more protein than chicken, because I do not believe that chicken has 80% water.

Also, for clarification, can you tell me for sure that ingredients are listed before cooking (as I do not know the answer). The reason I ask is because you used the word "if" in your statement. If means nothing.......It is or it is not......


Thanks
if you cook.... the ingredients are what you put into the mixer.....mix it up and cook it... then it goes into a drier so it can be bagged.... on the Natura site you can watch it.....

by law the ingredients have to be listed by weight...prior to cooking.. the n/a is actual results from the cooking process...that too you see with transparent companies like Natura... all Natura diets have at least 80 % of the protein coming from meat..

most of the Pro Plan protein from meat will be less than the fat source listed...so under 20 % comes from meat...listed as the first ingredient.. but after cooking and being dried makes up real small amounts..It is always nice to see both.. fresh meat and meals in the first four positions....like the Innova products...and the EVO

Thank you for the reply. New information that I did not know.

If a puppy is doing well on a diet then let them be. Yes, dogs are harmed by diarrhea. Bloody diarrhea and leaky gut can set up the start of allergies. High quality cannot be determined from an ingredient list.

and most times it is from bugs they catch picking up everything off the ground and putting it into their mouths...Giardia especially..

what udder nonsense to blame the food....my dog did just great on Cal Nat lamb... what his breeder fed.... I was skeptical because I had never fed it... but it is the cleanest food in the market place...and designed by Dr. Belfield.. A Veterinarian....a former meat inspector who watched what poor quality of meat goes into the Pet Food...

So if a breeder wants you to feed Pro Plan... I do question that breeders knowledge about Pet Food...are they feeding only because it works...or because they get breeder discounts...but most likely their good breeding has made puppies that can do well even on the worst of foods....

So if a breeder wants you to feed Pro Plan... I do question that breeders knowledge about Pet Food...are they feeding only because it works...or because they get breeder discounts...but most likely their good breeding has made puppies that can do well even on the worst of foods....

If I was feeding Proplan, I'd be feeling a little insulted. You can't have it both ways. Either the food has a big impact on the dog or it doesn't.

If you are saying that with good breeding it isn't necessary to feed a dog one of the blends you like and the dog will still turn out great, then by the same token one of your preferred blends will not make much of a difference in a poorly bred dog. They are just predisposed to issues and problems and that is that.

So if a breeder wants you to feed Pro Plan... I do question that breeders knowledge about Pet Food...are they feeding only because it works...or because they get breeder discounts...but most likely their good breeding has made puppies that can do well even on the worst of foods....

Amazing comment. :smash:

Uplander, if you think there are huge incentives for breeders to feed Purina, you're mistaken. Other than a few coupons after buying enough bags, it's hardly any more profitable to them than the programs offered by many pet stores, including Petco (Buy 10, Get one free). If it were only based on that, we'd all be feeding Canidae, a company that has one of the BEST breeder programs out there.

Actually the meal vs. meat myth is true. I don't know if fresh meat really contains 80% water but it loses enough moisture to put it down below the other ingredients.

Laura, you don't have to be insulted by ignorant comments...I'm not and I feed pro plan puppy ;)

When pro plan shreds came out, I jumped ship on their adult foods. My dogs had been doing fabulously on them before that. California Natural was my actually my first stop because a friend was having excellent results with it. Most of my dogs immediatly had VERY loose stools. I cut back on food a bit (even though the kcals I was trying to feed was what they had been eating before) and they started losing weight as well as having sloppy stool. After two weeks of this, I switched to something else and poof, good poops. THAT MEANS IT WAS THE FOOD, NOT BECAUSE THEY PICKED SOMETHING UP OFF THE GROUND!! I tried going back to CN a couple of months later with the exact same results, this time also with 3wk old puppies having blow outs too! I switched the puppies immediatly to pro plan puppy and literally their next poops were perfectly formed, same with the adults (although they didn't go on a PP food).

California Natural, or ANY food, will NOT work for all dogs.

So if a breeder wants you to feed Pro Plan... I do question that breeders knowledge about Pet Food...are they feeding only because it works...or because they get breeder discounts...but most likely their good breeding has made puppies that can do well even on the worst of foods....

Seriously, your posts just keep getting more stupid. I guess if breeding dogs that don't require some special, high end, organic, special ordered food is a bad thing in your mind, more power to you. Most people would call that a healthy dog.

perry mason is dead.

:floor :floor I can always count on you to lighten the mood of these highly opinionated threads!

I guess if breeding dogs that don't require some special, high end, organic, special ordered food is a bad thing in your mind, more power to you. Most people would call that a healthy dog.

I agree with this, well said!

and most times it is from bugs they catch picking up everything off the ground and putting it into their mouths...Giardia especially.. what udder nonsense to blame the food....my dog did just great on Cal Nat lamb... what his breeder fed.... I was skeptical because I had never fed it... but it is the cleanest food in the market place...and designed by Dr. Belfield.. A Veterinarian....a former meat inspector who watched what poor quality of meat goes into the Pet Food...

So if a breeder wants you to feed Pro Plan... I do question that breeders knowledge about Pet Food...are they feeding only because it works...or because they get breeder discounts...but most likely their good breeding has made puppies that can do well even on the worst of foods....

LOL.....you are becoming a caricature of yourself for things like this.

Doppler posted:

Your recommendation seems to be based on what you're reading in some definitions and not personal experience or science. You have a right to make choices but is it right to "not recommend" a food based on irrational fears? This forum is doing a disservice when people come here and are made to feel guilty for feeding a food that is working for their puppy or recommended by their breeder. Reading this thread alone should show you that dogs are harmed by bad advice. You can't say one dog food is better than another or is higher in quality by the ingredient list alone. There would be less remorse if we used our experience with dog foods to help people instead of projecting our fears or beliefs in a negative way.

No "irrational fears" on my part. You ask for "personal experience" or "science"

Personal experience: Past dogs of mine, as well as my senior golden in earlier years, were fed Science Diet, Iams, Eukanuba and Nutro. None of them had as healthy of skin and good coat; good energy, good muscle tone and as few health problems as my senior golden has shown in the last 3 years or that my 2 year old Luna does so far. None of my past dogs lived beyond 11 years. The jury is out on that factor for my current two dogs, but I'm hopeful. My dogs currently eat a rotational diet of various kibbles (that have significantly different profiles than the brands I just mentioned) and canned with some fresh food thrown in occasionally. I promote no one specific food and only offer my opinions on the subject when someone asks questions. I believe there are good and not as good choices in every price range.

Science: To date, I haven't come across any information suggesting that animal fat, animal digest, brewer's rice, and corn meal gluten (and various other ingredients) are as beneficial as chicken meal, chicken, sunflower oil, chicken fat, peas (and various other ingredients).

People make recommendations all the time in regular life and on this board about all sorts of things - based on their own experience and information they've absorbed from a variety of sources. It's up to the listener or reader to become an informed consumer and take or disregard what others offer. I've posted this strategy for choosing food before and share it again:

1. Be aware if your dog has any special needs
2. Become an informed consumer and develop your own beliefs and opinions
3. Know your budget
4. Try a specific food and see how your dog does; adapt as necessary.

have you noticed the OP hasn't posted since the original question?

Probably scared to death .. running to the hills with his hair on fire screaming for someone to put this thread out of its misery. :D:D

Something i found makes for some interesting reading when there is nothing better to do than google dog food all night long... :p:

This ought to feed some interesting dinner table conversations…


1. Ingredients are listed on the label in order of WEIGHT.
2. If the weight is the same for various ingredients, the manufacturer gets to choose the order in which they are listed. (i.e., meat, rice, wheat, barley).
3. “Real meat” contains mostly water. For example, three pounds of “chicken meal” equals one pound of “real chicken” or “organic chicken”. So it’s not necessarily better to have a dry food that states “real” anything. It could simply be marketing.
4. In a formula such as this one — real chicken, brown rice, barley — it’s reasonable to assume that each is the same weight. Take the water out of the chicken, which represents 30% of the total weight, and you really have very little real chicken in the formula, maybe 7-15%.
5. The same formula, substituting chicken meal instead of chicken, retains a 30% value of meat protein because there is no “water weight”.
6. Having multiple meats on the listing doesn’t necessarily increase the meat protein. On the other hand, having only one meat doesn’t necessarily mean there is less protein. A food that states “chicken meal, brown rice, potato” can mean they are there in the same quantities — 30-30-30 — OR that the chicken meal is a much higher percent of the formula, with brown rice and potato there only in enough quantities to form the kibble. You simply cannot tell.
7. Watch for “splitting”. If a label says, “Chicken, brown rice, rice flour, rice gluten, rice protein”, it probably gets its protein from the rice, not the chicken, and there is a lot more rice than meat in the formula. If they listed simply “rice”, it would be the first ingredient. Same thing with corn, ground corn meal, corn gluten.
8. Watch for signs that the protein comes from the grains, not the meats. In holistic foods, we don’t like to see corn or wheat, but you can also get protein from the “good grains” such as brown rice and barley. Again, it’s very hard to tell. Your manufacturer could put 80% chicken meal and 2% brown rice, just enough to form a kibble (this is a good thing), or they could be using equal amounts of rice and chicken meal and choose to list chicken meal first.


The purpose of this article is to help you discard “old wives tales” in the pet food arena. Many people pick up false “mantras” such as “be sure real meat is the first thing on the label” and “you always want two or more meats in your food”.
Just learn to read the label, educate yourself on the pet food formulator and the company, don’t believe everything you read, and you’ll do just fine!

Its sad that this thread is no longer about what the OP asked and has turned into a huge debate, probably scaring the OP away. :rolleyes:


I would feed what your breeder is feeding...I don't think it is good to switch a puppy right away and then if you feel that their is a better food then it can't hurt to try. We have been on many food roller coasters and the key is to find what works best for your dog while using your knowledge of ingredients to make sure you are feeding the best possible food for your new puppy :)

Congratulations on your new pup!

...but most likely their good breeding has made puppies that can do well even on the worst of foods....


What about those of us who have had shelter mutts do well on the food?

The sad fact.. Iams, Eukanuba, and Purina( Pro Plan) have been left behind by companies that make human grade Pet Food...

If healthy food is what you want to feed you have to look past the managers of the waste industries...to companies that decided to go against the grain...(pun intended)

It is not what is listed on the bag....it's the stuff from rendering of animals..solvents, chemicals, and mystery meats and fats from dead animals that have started to decompose... that all wind up in the lower level pet foods...

In Canada the Champion Pet Co decided to do that... In the USA Natura, Wellness-Eagle Pack and some others have thought a market exists for pet owners wishing to feed more appropriate meat orientated diets ...

The reason the rendering plants and pet Food companies are so close together is they work hand and hand to recycle the remnants of the human food manufacturers...making a big mix of garbage our pets eat instead of going to a landfill....It is not totally a bad thing....but some suspect things get rendered like dead dogs and cats...that is a fact...as Ann Martin writes in her book Food Pets Die For and backs that up with documented sources...the Pet Food makers don't want a battle with her because more truth would come out in a public legal battle under discovery...

Many dogs do well on low end products....dogs who are healthy in the digestive system...does not matter who breed them... mills or good breeders, but expose any animal....man to the lowest life form to chemicals,diseased animals, fats that are rancid...grains that are moldy and illness will take place...

Many places exist today to examine Pet Foods and compare... That is what nutrition is... health by eating the right things...

Going to dog food analysis you will see hundreds of Pet Foods... so there are many choices other than 1 star foods...( Pro Plan ...1 star..http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showcat.php/cat/7/page/32)

bookmarks:

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/
http://dogtorj.tripod.com/index.html
http://www.thepetcenter.com/lib/aaa.html
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles.htm
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/
http://www.drpitcairn.com/
http://www.belfield.com/about.php
http://www.stevesrealfood.com/
http://www.naturapet.com/
http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/documents/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf
http://www.eaglepack.com/index.html
http://www.wysong.net/
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1661&aid=655
http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/

Ive been reading this thread and what a bunch a bunk is being thrown. I think breeders who deal with many dogs, puppies and pet owners would have more authority than something in a book. If I believed every book out there, I would stop in the corn field, jump on a UFO and have them give me and Ozzie a ride to Petsmart so we could buy our PP.

If the OP's breeder's dogs do well on PP, then stick with PP. If not, switch. The OP is talking about switching food and doesnt even have the puppy yet. Why switch, if nothing is wrong?

As I said before, Ozzie does great on PP. He is healthy, stools are good, coat is good, he is not overweight and gobbles up his food every meal. What more do you want from a food?

I noticed OP did come back and politely post thank you for the info.

I hope he is able to find some helpful information in there. Its made for interesting reading

Congrats on your new pup to the OP!

I don't get why everyone has such a problem with what their breeder recommends when it comes to pro-plan or any other food for that matter. Cappys breeder and tons of folks I know start their pups out on this food. You know I never even questioned why Nicole fed Pro Plan. All she said is it worked for her lines and that's really all that mattered to me. As a matter of fact when I switched Cappy to adult formula is when I started to have issues. I tried Eagle Pack and Innova with no luck for Cappy. Nicole told me to use Natures Variety which once again she recommened because this is what she had fed and worked for her lines. Just like that no more stool problems for Cappy. Trust your breeder.

I understand we all want what's best for our pups but why such the bashing on particular foods? I just don't get it... It's great to share how one food or another has or hasn't worked but to state without evidence a food may contain a persons dead pet is way out there IMO...

I highly doubt many of eat as well for ourselves as to what is preached on this forum for our dogs.

I feed Bailey a very high end food which costs me a mint. We feed Ziwi Peak because she is so active and have tried EVO and others first but Bailey had issues with this as well.

It's all about what works and what doesn't work for YOUR dog(s)..

It's all about what works and what doesn't work for YOUR dog(s)..

That's what it all boils down to. Let me explain my experiences. For years I had been on the food roller coaster. I should add that here (Cheyenne) we were and still are to some extent, limited as to what is available. There was no Petco or Petsmart when I moved here 25 years ago. Besides the grocery store offerings, there was a feed store which sold Iams (before P & G bought them out and made it available in supermarkets), Eukanuba, Nutra Max, Pro Plan when it came out, Science Diet and a few other brands. I started with Iams, the SD and then went to Nutra Max. For a short while I drove to the Fort Collins, Colorado Petsmart to buy Nature's Recipe (it had been recommended by holistic vet I used to drive down to Boulder to see for acupuncture for one dog's arthritis as there are no holistic vets in town) but that became a problem after a while. Anyone who has ever lived in this part of the country knows what our winters are like. Being on the high plains, we get a lot of blowing and drifting snow and it is not uncommon at all during the winter for the interstate to be closed. When Petco opened it's door here about 5-6 years ago, it was a huge boon. So many choices!

Now, I had never been happy with my dogs' coats - they felt greasy to me so when I first read the Pro Plan Select bag, it sounded good so I thought I'd give it a try. What a difference! My dogs have all been shelter rescues and when I bring them home, their coats all seemed tacky even days after a bath. But on this food, their coats became luxurously soft and their stools were firm (and they pooped less). They all were full of energy and appeared to be in good health.

Recently, I have had my lab mix diagnosed with cancer. I should add, in case anyone thinks it's the food, that he was 12 years old when I adopted him last fall and it was a just a few months later he was diagnosed. I have no idea what he was fed for the first 12 years of his life or what he was exposed to environmentally. I've got to believe his care wasn't too high a priority since his prior owners left him behind as they were moving. (I'll never understand this attitude. I would take my dogs with me even if I was moving to the other ends of the earth!) But since he has cancer, I've recently switched him to Wellness Core over 12 days since a high pro, high fat, low carb diet is recommended for dogs with cancer. Since he went 100% Core, he's had - you guessed it - soft poops. Yes, I'm adding canned pumpkin since I do want to keep him on the cancer diet. I also thought I'd switch the other two over but again with the mushy poops. So I am now switching them back to PPS. I figure, why mess with what works?

Yes, I DO want to feed my dogs a good food but I can only go by what seems to work for my dogs.

I have followed Pro Plan a long time... even fed it for a while to my last Lab...

unnamed Animal Fat is a new change showing up on the Pro Plan web page....old bags of food will show the old formula....they use an almost 1 and 1/2 year expiration dating system...Best used by....

For larger profit they have done this because suppliers at the renderer's can mix any animal and not sort out specific animals.... This the cheapest, worse thing I've seen in a so called premium food....that is 12-20 % of an unknown product going into your dog each feeding....

This is not going to be the Pro Plan you have been feeding....and could pose very serious problems for your dog....

Brand loyalty is one thing... arguing the un-named stuff is Ok is another...it is a bad business practice ....

I have no doubt Pro Plan has worked for your dogs... I do see major problems in the future...one bag you are going to buy will contain one type of fat and the next bag it will be something else....and only the renderer will know...

Congrats on your new pup to the OP!

I don't get why everyone has such a problem with what their breeder recommends when it comes to pro-plan or any other food for that matter. Cappys breeder and tons of folks I know start their pups out on this food. You know I never even questioned why Nicole fed Pro Plan. All she said is it worked for her lines and that's really all that mattered to me. As a matter of fact when I switched Cappy to adult formula is when I started to have issues. I tried Eagle Pack and Innova with no luck for Cappy. Nicole told me to use Natures Variety which once again she recommened because this is what she had fed and worked for her lines. Just like that no more stool problems for Cappy. Trust your breeder.

I understand we all want what's best for our pups but why such the bashing on particular foods? I just don't get it... It's great to share how one food or another has or hasn't worked but to state without evidence a food may contain a persons dead pet is way out there IMO...

I highly doubt many of eat as well for ourselves as to what is preached on this forum for our dogs.

I feed Bailey a very high end food which costs me a mint. We feed Ziwi Peak because she is so active and have tried EVO and others first but Bailey had issues with this as well.

It's all about what works and what doesn't work for YOUR dog(s)..

No......it's about trying to get other people to feed what you do......whether it works or not. You need to be a "Netspert" though......attach links to silly one sided opinions and then try to defend them. When folks disagree with you, you have to tell them you wouldn't feed that garbage and try to scare them as much as possible. Then you have to disparage their breeder who is obviously just in it for the money. (It really doesn't matter if you have ever bred a litter, worked with dogs, except your own......you are still a "netspert")

Then bring up ........da, da, da.........daaaaaaaaaaaa.........dogfoodanalysis.. .....like its a bible instead of a bunch of other "netsperts".



The whole thing is kinda funny in a way.

I think what it comes down to is so many of us will feed the same food for years. If it's not a great food then I think as the dog gets older problems will arise. For me personally (and I apologize to those who feed Pro Plan) I just am not comfortable with that food because of some of the ingredients. But in all fairness, I have never fed that food - it's just after losing my boy Cooper to cancer you tend to read and read and read about dog food. And because of this I can find just about something wrong with every pet food sold in Petco/Petsmart or a reason as to why those foods won't work for my dog. I almost liked it better when I was oblivious to knowing anything about dog food.

Nancy

I noticed OP did come back and politely post thank you for the info.

Nope, that was another poster in this whole messy thread. The OP only posted twice in this thread - and the second time is the 3rd post in it, 1st page.

All of this hoopla over dog food. Seriously... You feed what works for your dog & your wallet. End of story. If we wanted to have a part II to the story, it would be easy - all of us don't eat the same foods, despite the nutritional differences in our diets. Yet most of us are fairly healthy, right? Sure, people eating all of the right foods (plenty of fruits & veggies, good sources of protein, etc etc.) might be healthier than others, but... We're all walking, breathing, enjoying life. Why, I bet the same goes for our canine companions, right?

So... Whatever. Seems to me this thread might be better as a locked one. Just my :2cents:.

Like they say... dogs will eat *hit.... they don't care...


That's what Animal Fat and animal digest is from unnamed sources...save yourself some $$ and let them eat from your garbage pail...it's the same thing...:D but of course I did feed Pro Plan before it changed...turning itself into Ol Roy...so I feel totally confident in my ability to comment...my issue is with the money grubbing corporate leaders and Bean counters ruining a good product...so they can live in the Swiss Alps and count their profits in the Swiss banks....your dogs should not have to suffer for their greed....

Have you checked out Pro Plan's web site ? It does not tell you anything...have you called them to ask questions....I have... They source heavily from China...will not tell you how much protein is from meat...they are not very open about anything...perhaps they have a lot to hide...Ya think?

Are there bad animal fats and good ones?

Still waiting for the link to the youtube video of Uplander eating Cal Nat.......

Are there bad animal fats and good ones?

In a sense, yes. "chicken fat" or "fish oil" is not a bad thing... it's when you get into unnamed animal fats... IE "animal fat" ... you don't know what kind of animal it came from. It could be ANYTHING. A lot of people, myself included, prefer not to feed unnamed fats.

Would beef fat be a bad fat to feed? What about chicken fat mixed with lamb fat, would that be bad?

did anyone ever hear the expression "beating a dead horse?"

No......it's about trying to get other people to feed what you do......whether it works or not. You need to be a "Netspert" though......attach links to silly one sided opinions and then try to defend them. When folks disagree with you, you have to tell them you wouldn't feed that garbage and try to scare them as much as possible. Then you have to disparage their breeder who is obviously just in it for the money. (It really doesn't matter if you have ever bred a litter, worked with dogs, except your own......you are still a "netspert")

Then bring up ........da, da, da.........daaaaaaaaaaaa.........dogfoodanalysis.. .....like its a bible instead of a bunch of other "netsperts".



The whole thing is kinda funny in a way.

Kinda of sad too. Some of these people need to get a life instead of just reading dog food ingredient list all day long. ;)

did anyone ever hear the expression "beating a dead horse?"

:deadhorse:

What's more a shame is the fact that the OP probably WAS scared off by the thread...

yup

did anyone ever hear the expression "beating a dead horse?"


I thnk we've found the unnamed animal fat source...:)

I thnk we've found the unnamed animal fat source...:)

:rofl1::rofl1:

Cleanest..safest food is California Natural....if your puppy does well on Chicken Pro Plan.... after the stressful change of the new home....he should do wonderful on Cal Nat Chicken...all Natura products are human grade and it is the best Pet Food Company in the States today...

Pro Plan has become a low end food this past year...using "Animal Fat" which can very well contain any animal including some that were family pets...Five years ago I would tell you to feed Pro Plan..today it is a terrible food....and a profit driven company...using some of the worst ingredients instead of healthy ones...

Cal Nat Puppy...http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1252

just bumping this thread. uplander, I disagree. A long time ago toby was on pro plan chicken. now he is on CN chicken and rice and has had two bouts on diarrhea. soon we're switching to CN lamb and rice. if that doesnt work, idk what we're going to do.

Kinda of sad too. Some of these people need to get a life instead of just reading dog food ingredient list all day long. ;)

why are you on this thread if it's so sad? just because you support a food doesnt mean you read an ingredient list all day long...

why are you on this thread if it's so sad? just because you support a food doesnt mean you read an ingredient list all day long...

If it wasn't for the rain, I would be playing golf. Plus I enjoy trying to balance out the food threads here.:D

I have had my puppy since march and the vet recomended putting him on large breed puppy chow, and the pro plan was the first one i found. He's been on this food for about 6 months now, and i havent really noticed anything wrong. Recently though he hasnt been eating all of his dinner and leaving it in his bowl. I have read that with Labs especially you should keep them on puppy chow until they are at least a year old, which is why ihavent switched yet. What specifically does this food do that is so bad?

Also i havent really heard of many of these other brands ppl talk about on this site... what are some other good brands to switch him to?

Depends on if *you* really want to switch him to another food or not.

We can give suggestions all day long, but in the end, you need to make the final decision on what works for you and your puppy.

There are tons of good brands of foods; but only a selective few can be found at local Petsmarts, others can be found at individual pet-stores that some refer to as canine boutique stores.

I've spent my time feeding everything from SD and Authority to Innova and Orijen. I have too many opinions for the most part, but will gladly give you suggestions if you want them.

For starters, if you're dead set on switching from what you're feeding, I'll be honest to say I haven't fed Purina products since the early 90's; but still would like to feed a food commonly found at Petsmart, then take a look at Blue Buffalo Wilderness version, this is an excellent food many have had good luck with.

Avoderm/Breeder's choice is another good one, but I'd actually recommend the Blue Buffalo over the Avoderm.

At other stores you can find all kinds of foods:

Eagle pack
Nature's Variety
Wellness
Merrick
Innova
California Natural
Healthwise
Acana grain-free
Orijen

I'm sure there are tons of others I"m not thinking of at the moment; do be careful and post back here when there's a food you're thinking about, as there are certain formula's; i.e. Wellness (core) for instance, that you don't want to feed to a pup younger then 2yrs. However Wellness 5 versions are fine for a dog of any age.

I have had my puppy since march and the vet recomended putting him on large breed puppy chow, and the pro plan was the first one i found. He's been on this food for about 6 months now, and i havent really noticed anything wrong. Recently though he hasnt been eating all of his dinner and leaving it in his bowl. I have read that with Labs especially you should keep them on puppy chow until they are at least a year old, which is why ihavent switched yet. What specifically does this food do that is so bad?

Also i havent really heard of many of these other brands ppl talk about on this site... what are some other good brands to switch him to?

How old is your puppy? If he's around 5-6 months he may be off his feed because his adult teeth are coming in. As your puppy gets older his rate of growth slows down too and he may require less food.

Welcome to the forum!

How old is your puppy? If he's around 5-6 months he may be off his feed because his adult teeth are coming in. As your puppy gets older his rate of growth slows down too and he may require less food.

Welcome to the forum!

Kibbles 'n Bits lets your dog live to be 24 yrs old....:D

http://www.kibblesnbits.com/varieties/wholesomemedley.aspx

Pro Plan is no longer a food I'd buy or recommend because of the un-named nature of some ingredients...You are never going to get the same fat source...and it could be from animals you don't want your dog eating...

RC started on Pro Plan last week , so far so good.

kathy

Kibbles 'n Bits lets your dog live to be 24 yrs old....:D

http://www.kibblesnbits.com/varieties/wholesomemedley.aspx

Pro Plan is no longer a food I'd buy or recommend because of the un-named nature of some ingredients...You are never going to get the same fat source...and it could be from animals you don't want your dog eating...

Nutrition threads are about like watching day time soap operas. You can go on an long vacation, come back, and the same ole same ole will be on the tube. Never miss a beat. :p: