First of all, I don't want this thread to become out of hand, okay? I just want your opinion.

Okay, you know how "breeders" are breeding "silvers and charcoals". What about the factored dogs that are the approved coat color? Yellows, Blacks, Chocolates? Do you think they should be able to be shown in the ring? Why or why not?

Do you feel its okay, but they just shouldn't be bred? Also, if someone was to bred them, would it be possible to get silver or charcoal pups in the litter if say the other dog doesn't have the mutated gene?

The reason I ask is because when you look at some of these dogs they do (more recent generations) look more labby. So what is your take on this? I will be honest and say I'm worried about these dogs affecting the current lines if a newbie was to get involved with showing and not know better (not knowing that in the past three generation somewhere in that line was a silver/charcoal dog or factored dog).

Showing is an evaluation of breeding stock, and if you aren't ever going to breed, showing is a useless hobby. I don't care if a dog looks like one of the standard 3 colors, if you are saying that they have the dilute gene to produce the silver or charcoal, chances the dog's pedigree is worthless for showing anyway, so it's a moot point.

Granted for a newbie wanting to show, you could end up snookered by someone with one of those "suspect" dogs in the pedigree, but if you only buy from a reputable breeder who shows, you can pretty much guarantee yourself that won't happen. I can't think of one self-respecting decent breeder that would let that pedigree into their line.

Well, every "silver or charcoal" has looked pretty much like a Weimaraner. Very houndy. I don't believe (but am not educated) that they are the result of a mutated gene.

If there is another breed inside the pedigree of one of these dogs, then I don't think they should be shown or bred. HOWEVER, I have seen (in cats), cross breeding that ultimately ended up with another breed of cat that was accepted for show.

there a 3 colors of labs.different colors of yellow, but not white. different chocolates, but NOT SILVER!
period.

Edie, from what I understand Weims coloring comes from a dilute gene, and when the Weims were crossed with labs, that's when the dilute gene started appearing in labs. It's not really a mutated gene. Think of it as a variation on the color gene. Like the Yellow is an absence of color genetically influence, the dilute gene mutes the dark colors through genetic influence. But again, this genetic influence only appeared in labs AFTER the weims were bred in.

Ok, so the weims are in the labs.....

What do you think was bred in to the labs to create the houndy looking dogs we see in the 3 original colors? Pointers? Fox hounds??

I;m curious too. Today's DNA test can't pick everything up either. Some poorly bred labs do look houndy.

What (to you) would make a true "silver/charcoal" bred lab? A black pigmentation? Chocolate pigmentation? Since, from what I've read there truly are "true" silvers; but that they are extremely rare?

What about the dogs we see with white on their chest or bridling in their coats, etc? What could cost that?

Also, I'm curious about the weims..part. I've seen weim/lab crosses and they weren't one solid color, they looked like an aussie. So how would a person who breeds them get a solid coat color like silver?

There are not true silver labs. From what I do know, the only way the silver came in to the picture was by crossing a lab with a weimaraner. From there it was bred in by selective breeding.

the brindling coloration is different. There is know brindling in labs that are purebred. Others will know more than I do about this.

There are no TRUE silver labs. They are not rare, they are throw backs to the original kennel that had both Weims and Labs. If you have read anything differently, it's only the propaganda that the silver kennels are putting out there to make themselves appear reputable.

At the risk of repeating myself, you have to boil it down to really understand it. What you need to understand is that the dilute gene that causes the color silver and charcoal DID NOT naturally appear in labradors until Weims were bred in. PERIOD. Read what you want, think what you want, but this is true.

About the houndiness...all breeds are a combination of some other dog at some point in time. But at one point in time, the breeders and the kennel clubs said "That's it"..."This is a Labrador" and they started the stud book. At that point, there were supposed to be no more mixing in of other breeds to attain what someone thought might be a perfect Labrador. So one way to address the houndiness is to consider that if some type of hound was in the original mix before the stud book was created, that could appear in offspring from time to time. This type of genetic appearance can be seen in the black dogs with tan points (looking like a Dobe or Rottie). This is also documented in old Lab breed books such as the one by Mary Roslin Williams. In her day, the tan pointed pups were culled because she felt that the genetic throw back to the Dobes and Rotties could compromise temperment and they were not kept. The other thought is that the houndy labs usually only appear in badly bred or not bred for comformation litters. I see most of the houndy labs in the field and hunting arena, and I felt that was always attributed to the fact that hunting dog breeders specifically focused on instinct and birdiness. Thus you get 2 ugly, but super working labs together, and you continue to build on that look.

White on the chest and brindling is just a burp in the color genetics. It has nothing to do with any of this really.

ditto. no silver labs.period.

Okay, you know how "breeders" are breeding "silvers and charcoals". What about the factored dogs that are the approved coat color? Yellows, Blacks, Chocolates? Do you think they should be able to be shown in the ring? Why or why not?

Conformation shows are judging purebred breeding stock. If a dog is "silver or silver-factored" it is not a purebred labrador so no, it shouldn't be shown.

Also, if someone was to bred them, would it be possible to get silver or charcoal pups in the litter if say the other dog doesn't have the mutated gene?

As others have said, nothing is mutated. In order to produce diluted puppies, both parents have to be, or carry, the diluted gene.

Newbie should have no problem avoiding the tainted lines by actually becoming involved with their breed club and finding a mentor.

I've never even seen a remotely show type or quality Labrador in a silver or silver producing kennel. Mostly BYB's and I don't think they'd ever even get the jones to waste money showing.

...If a dog is "silver or silver-factored" it is not a purebred labrador so no, it shouldn't be shown.... Not to nit pick, but isn't part of the problem here that even with a silver or silver-factored dog, the AKC is still allowing the registration to be done as chocolate. And the silver breeders are still saying that the dogs are purebred because whoever did that first cross breeding lied on the papers, so there IS a paper-trail "proving" pedigree for these dogs.

It's not like the AKC is the ethics police and can enforce anything to ensure that when Dam A is bred to Sire B, that she really wasn't bred to Sire C. Sure we have DNA on file with AKC for the top bred dogs, but I think we are kind of past that with the silvers. The sham has been going on for so many years that even if a DNA profile is on file with AKC, it just proves who the daddy is, not what breed he is, and the papers are so many years past the initially scam that the dogs "appear" purebred.

I think that any person truly into the sport of showing Labs will agree that silver is not a recognized color and the pedigrees that all of us seem to value (no matter how diverse) do NOT include the kennel names known for perpetuating this farce.

I just think that it would be highly unlikely to get a top pick pup from a silver breeder and have it be conformationally sound enough to do well at shows....even regardless of the color...as the structure that we are constantly hoping to attain will only come from the better lines of dogs.

Consider this .... the 'silver' showed up for the first time in the U.S. It had not been seen in any other Lab population in the world prior to its debut here. And it only came out of one kennel ..... the kennel that had weims and Labs. I'm no geneticist, but if the silver gene was naturally occurring, it would have been seen prior and in other populations.

Consider this .... the 'silver' showed up for the first time in the U.S. It had not been seen in any other Lab population in the world prior to its debut here. And it only came out of one kennel ..... the kennel that had weims and Labs. I'm no geneticist, but if the silver gene was naturally occurring, it would have been seen prior and in other populations.

that made me laugh...maybe the genes just jumped across the weim over to the lab in their crates...:D:D

that made me laugh...maybe the genes just jumped across the weim over to the lab in their crates...:D:D

Guess they had some 'frisky' genes in that kennel! LOL

AMEN to both CanyonLabradors and 3colors, I have been trying to convince people of this for months now. Apparently there is a BYB in our area putting out silver labs and I know a bunch of lab owners that are all excited about it. It irritates me to no end, if it ain't black, yellow, or chocolate, it isn't a true lab to me. Even if it were a true genetic mutation and not trickery by some BYB looking to make money, it would be considered a genetic defect and that dog should not be used as breeding stock, although I'm sure he/she would make a great pet no matter his/her color.

Even if it were a true genetic mutation and not trickery by some BYB looking to make money, it would be considered a genetic defect and that dog should not be used as breeding stock, although I'm sure he/she would make a great pet no matter his/her color.

I think you are exactly right there. IF IF IF IF IF this were some naturally found in Labs, but a recent mutation, it would probably be looked at like a Dudley. Cute, great pet, but for showing/breeding, not what you are trying to go for.

I kind of lump Silver breeders in with Labradoodle breeders. The only major difference is that doodle breeders think they are creating a new breed, while silver breeders are deluded thinking that their dogs are the same as the classic colored labs. It's really amazing how they cannot be convinced of the genetic truth.

Ok I have heard that to produce a so called "silver" they simply come from two chocolates each having a dilute gene. What bothers me is that people say they are Registered as silvers...no they are not. They can only be registered as chocoaltes there are three color codes for labradors and silver or charcol is not an option. Its the same as "white" labs...they are yelllows period.
Silver is just a fad that some byb made up to make more money and unfortuantly people fell for it. I have seen alot of "silvers" produced by cross breeding to weims its pretty obvious when they end up with really short coats and wiemy colored eyes. Its a money making gimick unfortunatly.

That it is, a gimick. But who are they getting?

People who say 'I don't want a show dog' or 'I just want a pet' or 'The color is so different I just have to have one' or 'They'll ship it to me' or 'I get to meet mom and dad'

None of these things make sense to anyone who knows anything about dogs.

No you may not want a show dog, but you do want the excellent genes for health, temperament and trainability that reputable breeders put into their dogs.

Odds are, you will not get a show dog even from a show breeder unless you are specifically asking for one and even then its a crap shoot, what you will get is a dog who a) looks like a Labrador b) trains like a labrador c) the knowledge that you supported someone who believes in their dogs by titling them, and providing the best nutrition etc for them.

Meeting mom and dad is a huge red flag in the dog world. HUGE red flag. With countless pedigrees, lots of known inherited diseases, hours of research and investigations, REPUTABLE breeders know that the best choice for their wonderful girl is NEARLY NEVER found in the same backyard. I'd avoid even considering any breeder who uses this as a marketing ploy.

Ok I have heard that to produce a so called "silver" they simply come from two chocolates each having a dilute gene. Yes, and that dilute gene is NOT NATURALLY OCURRING in labradors. It IS naturally ocurring in Weims. Hmmm...now let's guess how the gene is there in the silver labs, the ones that look like Weims.....:eek:

That it is, a gimick. But who are they getting?

People who say 'I don't want a show dog' or 'I just want a pet' or 'The color is so different I just have to have one' or 'They'll ship it to me' or 'I get to meet mom and dad'

None of these things make sense to anyone who knows anything about dogs.

No you may not want a show dog, but you do want the excellent genes for health, temperament and trainability that reputable breeders put into their dogs.

Odds are, you will not get a show dog even from a show breeder unless you are specifically asking for one and even then its a crap shoot, what you will get is a dog who a) looks like a Labrador b) trains like a labrador c) the knowledge that you supported someone who believes in their dogs by titling them, and providing the best nutrition etc for them.

Meeting mom and dad is a huge red flag in the dog world. HUGE red flag. With countless pedigrees, lots of known inherited diseases, hours of research and investigations, REPUTABLE breeders know that the best choice for their wonderful girl is NEARLY NEVER found in the same backyard. I'd avoid even considering any breeder who uses this as a marketing ploy.

So they want a pet, but a lab, right?? The silver is not a lab so why then do they want it?? Same reason as they want some other designer breed, to shock and draw attention to them as being "different" maybe.

So they want a pet, but a lab, right?? The silver is not a lab so why then do they want it?? ...But the thing is that probably a majority of John Q Public has no clue that a silver lab is not really a lab. These same folks don't know about BYB's or that it's bad to buy from a pet store. From what I can tell when we run across someone with a new silver puppy, they did NOT do their research. The breeder sucks, the dogs have no clearances, they look worse than your typical BYB breeding stock. But folks just don't know. If you read a Silver breeder's site, and had no prior background about the Labrador breed, you would think these folks know what they are doing and have it going on.

But the thing is that probably a majority of John Q Public has no clue that a silver lab is not really a lab. These same folks don't know about BYB's or that it's bad to buy from a pet store. From what I can tell when we run across someone with a new silver puppy, they did NOT do their research. The breeder sucks, the dogs have no clearances, they look worse than your typical BYB breeding stock. But folks just don't know. If you read a Silver breeder's site, and had no prior background about the Labrador breed, you would think these folks know what they are doing and have it going on.

Most of the population thinks the cock-a-poo is a 'real' breed. The so-called silver Lab is easy to dupe a buyer because it comes with AKC papers.

Most of the population thinks the cock-a-poo is a 'real' breed. The so-called silver Lab is easy to dupe a buyer because it comes with AKC papers.

I just wanted to say three things about my silver: one he isnt healthy and I didn't make a mistake when I "rescued" him from the breeder. Two when I got him I had no intentions on breeding him for money, to ruin the labrador genes, or trick people into thinking anything different. And three I never had intentions on showing him in ANY shows. So do you think you could give some credit to people that do have them? Not everyone is out to do what those messed up breeders do. So with that said I love my dog he is my buddy, my hunting partner, and because of threads like this I call him a mix for fear of upseting anyone. I understand the breeders point of view, I really do because of what I have been through with him, but is it really necessary that u make people feel like they got "duped" into getting a dog? Thats fine u have made your point but for god sakes can I live one day without a comment from anybody in my state about my damn dog?

deuceswild09-this is not meant as an attack on everyone who has a "silver" lab. if you search on this board, all the info about "silver" labs you will see that this is a hot topic.most people who come on here talking about their "silver" labs bought them because they are silver,and supposedly a rare breed. so the fact that you "rescued" him, (not quite sure what that means tho) from your "breeder, is a good thing. i think, tho i can only speak for myself, the breeders on this board are merely trying to educate those of us who dont know about "silver" labs.

Meeting mom and dad is a huge red flag in the dog world. HUGE red flag. With countless pedigrees, lots of known inherited diseases, hours of research and investigations, REPUTABLE breeders know that the best choice for their wonderful girl is NEARLY NEVER found in the same backyard. I'd avoid even considering any breeder who uses this as a marketing ploy.

To an extent I agree with you, but instead of saying never even consider it, I'd recommend asking lots of questions about it. I say this because for example, I know my trainer specifically picked her bitch pup with the hopes that it would eventually grow up to be a good match for her OTCH/CH male (these are border collies). At this point, she has no immediate plans to breed them (the girl is now 4) but she may in the next year or so ... as she puts it "when I am ready for a new puppy". If/when she does the breeding, it won't be because it was convenient, it will be because it has been planned for years. I've met other people who have done this, too. Now most of these people only breed one litter every 6 or 7 years, so it is a bit different than if they were breeding regularly, but I would say ask questions about WHY they own both rather than just assume it is bad.

that dog should not be used as breeding stock, although I'm sure he/she would make a great pet no matter his/her color.

That is kind of my question. Our family isn't looking to breed (we are planning on neutering), and we aren't looking to show. We just want a great family friend. We were lucky enough to have our dog, Harley, a wonderful yellow lab, for 14 years. It's been a few years, and we're ready for another dog. We were looking at Chocolates, and I came across the silver. "Real" labs or not, they are pretty. Plus, if they are a mix of Weims and Chocolates, would that not make them a "mutt" so to speak, and less prone to typical conditions that purebred dogs are subject to? (PS: I'm new to this site; what does BYB mean?) Or have I been "drinking the kool-aid" so to speak? :o:

BYB: back-yard breeder. There are various definitions but generally it is someone who breeds their dog without doing all their homework. They do not do the minimum testing on both parents (hips, elbows, heart and eyes) and do compete dog in any venue/event (ex: field, hunt, conformation, agility, etc). Some will treat their dogs wondefully and mean well (i.e. they do love their dog) but they either do no homework before breeding or just don't care to do homework. They breed for various reasons like "kids want to see a birth" or "my female is just so great I want another just like her" or "all my friends want a dog just like him and promise to take a puppy so they will all have great homes". etc. there are LOTS of reasons!

That is kind of my question. Our family isn't looking to breed (we are planning on neutering), and we aren't looking to show. We just want a great family friend. We were lucky enough to have our dog, Harley, a wonderful yellow lab, for 14 years. It's been a few years, and we're ready for another dog. We were looking at Chocolates, and I came across the silver. "Real" labs or not, they are pretty. Plus, if they are a mix of Weims and Chocolates, would that not make them a "mutt" so to speak, and less prone to typical conditions that purebred dogs are subject to? (PS: I'm new to this site; what does BYB mean?) Or have I been "drinking the kool-aid" so to speak? :o:

No, mixing two breeds does not "proof" them from genetic problems. For example, both labs and poodles are prone to HD, so even if you mix the two breeds you are no better off on that aspect.

I guess my question would be - why pay $1000+ for a MIX? Going with a good breeder who does appropriate testing is why you should be ready to pay more, as they put alot of money into the dogs to ensure they will not pass on issues to their puppies (all the testing costs alot of money, as does competiting wtih their dog to show they are of the correct standard AND trainable/good work ethic). If a breeder just has couch dogs and does no testing, I woudln't pay more than $150 for a puppy (ok well I just woudln't pay them, but that is just me).

Bottom line - there are millions of dogs in shelters needing a good home. If you choose to go with a dog from a breeder, make sure they are breeding for the right reasons and not just breeding whatever dog they have in their care. Go with one that does things RIGHT.

Just my two cents (personal opinion)

Plus, if they are a mix of Weims and Chocolates, would that not make them a "mutt" so to speak, and less prone to typical conditions that purebred dogs are subject to? (PS: I'm new to this site; what does BYB mean?) Or have I been "drinking the kool-aid" so to speak? :o:

Typical conditions? A properly bred dog by a reputable breeder will breed the best possible dog with healthy parents (heart, hips, elbows, PRA, CNM, and EIC clearances) with titles and proven lines. The risk of having a pet end up with hip dysplasia or something else is less with reputable breeders versus a BYB (Back Yard Breeder).

The difference is not only in the clearances and titles they put on their dogs but in the number of litters they are producing and small things like whelping inside, club activity, selling on limited registration, etc.

So no, mixes aren't "healthier" than purebreds. It's all about the breeding they came from. Silvers may be pretty (I think they look like they are dirty chocolates), but that is rewarding people who are breeding incorrect Labradors for the sheer money, which is a hallmark trait of a BYB. If you want to spend that much on a pretty dog, get one from a reputable breeder who breeds for the standard, for temperament and for health first...and color last.

That's my two cents on that. There is a link in this forum that has a checklist for looking for breeders. I'd also recommend looking at rescuing a dog. There are plenty of awesome labs that need a great home too. (Another product of BYBs overproducing labs).

So do you think you could give some credit to people that do have them? because of threads like this I call him a mix for fear of upseting anyone. I understand the breeders point of view, I really do because of what I have been through with him, but is it really necessary that u make people feel like they got "duped" into getting a dog?

I have to say that I kind of agree. I also have a "silver" that I bought from a "breeder". No, I didn't know better. My boyfriend thought the color was pretty so we got him. When I do things with Mason at events that have well-bred labs, I get dirty looks, comments and rudeness. I've even been told that I might not be welcome places because of his color. Which, I think is ridiculous. I've also been told that if, in the future, I do want to get a potential show dog, I will have a lot of difficulty because he is in my household. I am not going to get rid of my dog so that others think I'm acceptable as a good pet owner.

Mason is a lovely dog, he's neutered, he has excellent hips and normal elbows (OFA'd) and he's a deployable Search and Rescue dog. He's got his CGC, he's passed several obedience, rally and agility classes. I dock jump with him and I've started flyball as well. He's friendly, happy, lives to retrieve, he is a snuggler and he loves people and food. I want to know what is not lab-like about that. Just because he came from a non-reputable breeder - does he (and we) deserve to be treated as less? Further, since I am now better informed and I have done everything I could think of to prove that and to make a good example of my dogs - why would I not be considered a good prospect for a show dog? Do I deserve to be prejudiced against forever because I bought a mixed dog unknowingly?

Finally, Mason was an extremely sickly puppy, I found this board through google and after lurking felt too uncomfortable asking for help based on the threads that I found on silvers - I hope that other unknowing "silver" owners do not feel the same...

I have to say that I kind of agree. I also have a "silver" that I bought from a "breeder". No, I didn't know better. My boyfriend thought the color was pretty so we got him. When I do things with Mason at events that have well-bred labs, I get dirty looks, comments and rudeness. I've even been told that I might not be welcome places because of his color. Which, I think is ridiculous. I've also been told that if, in the future, I do want to get a potential show dog, I will have a lot of difficulty because he is in my household. I am not going to get rid of my dog so that others think I'm acceptable as a good pet owner.

Mason is a lovely dog, he's neutered, he has excellent hips and normal elbows (OFA'd) and he's a deployable Search and Rescue dog. He's got his CGC, he's passed several obedience, rally and agility classes. I dock jump with him and I've started flyball as well. He's friendly, happy, lives to retrieve, he is a snuggler and he loves people and food. I want to know what is not lab-like about that. Just because he came from a non-reputable breeder - does he (and we) deserve to be treated as less? Further, since I am now better informed and I have done everything I could think of to prove that and to make a good example of my dogs - why would I not be considered a good prospect for a show dog? Do I deserve to be prejudiced against forever because I bought a mixed dog unknowingly?

Finally, Mason was an extremely sickly puppy, I found this board through google and after lurking felt too uncomfortable asking for help based on the threads that I found on silvers - I hope that other unknowing "silver" owners do not feel the same...

I don't breed (yet, anyway - who knows what the future will hold, LOL) but if I did, I would be thrilled to have someone like you interested in my dogs .... you've neutered your dog, obviously given him good health care and are involved in performance activities. I certainly wouldn't let the color of your first dog stand in the way! I don't understand how what you did is any worse than someone who in their lack of knowlege buys their first lab from a pet store supplied by a puppymill (and I know for sure of several people who now show and breed who started out that way).

I have to say that I kind of agree. I also have a "silver" that I bought from a "breeder". No, I didn't know better. My boyfriend thought the color was pretty so we got him. When I do things with Mason at events that have well-bred labs, I get dirty looks, comments and rudeness. I've even been told that I might not be welcome places because of his color. Which, I think is ridiculous. I've also been told that if, in the future, I do want to get a potential show dog, I will have a lot of difficulty because he is in my household.



That's really sad. It amazes me that people have the nerve to say things like that. Are people supposed to just KNOW all there is to know about breeding? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you have to deal with ignorant people. Guess they forgot that they had to start somewhere as well.

Ok, so the weims are in the labs.....

What do you think was bred in to the labs to create the houndy looking dogs we see in the 3 original colors? Pointers? Fox hounds??


There are a number of breeds that make up the labrador including the Greyhound according to Mary Roslin Williams (MRW). I will listen to my tape again from her speaking to a breed club and see what else she said on that subject.


Most of the population thinks the cock-a-poo is a 'real' breed. The so-called silver Lab is easy to dupe a buyer because it comes with AKC papers.

Which they LIED to get by registering as a chocolate. AKC/CKC take your word on the colour of the pup registered based on the legal document you sign.

So I went aheac and typed in charcoal lab at google and looked at the first website that popped up. Those "labs" look just wrong to me. Huge body (lab) and tiny head. My old boss in Chicago wanted to buy a silver lab but her husband won't let her spend 2K on a puppy

Falon, it is cruel how some people can be.

I would not prejudge anyone based on the first dog they purchased if they were looking for another dog. I too agree that you have accomplished a great deal with your boy and he has proven himself to be a wonderful dog, and you a wonderful home.

Someone gave me a chance in this breed, even though I bough my first girl from a byb. We all have been there.

1. From the LRC web site,"

"SILVER LABRADORS
There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors. The silver color is a disqualification under the Standard for the breed. The LRC does not recognize, accept or condone the sale or advertising of any Labrador as a silver Labrador. The Club opposes the practice of registering silver as chocolate."


2. As for where they started....maybe a reg. bitch had a litter with 2 different fathers. A reg. bitch could have been bred to a reg. stud, in a planned breeding, and then "someone else" got into the picture. Some pups could be from the "real" dad, and some from "the interloper." Puppies arrive and they look like real labs, but some are a funny color...


Ethical to register ANY of the puppies? NO! Not even the ones you THINK have the correct daddy. But I'm guessing that's what happened...then someone decided they are pretty, and decided to reproduce it...

I had not seen this webpage by Blue Knight until just recently when a fellow friend shared it w/ me. I think it is quite good. http://www.blueknightlabs.com/content/view/70/109/

Anne

then someone decided they are pretty, and decided to reproduce it...

Yeah, and to reproduce it, they had to do some MAJOR inbreeding... Take this pedigree for example SCARY:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/Dostaff/pedigreesilver.jpg

You know WHY they had to do such inbreeding? Because no other lab carried the dilute gene...

Wow, that is scary close. Not even just one generation but each generation is inbred, not even a linebreeding, all inbreeding. I wonder how temperments and health is?

How could anyone even think they are doing a service to the breed with all that inbreeding. I guess that isn't a concern.

I noticed that there are a couple "breeders" producing Champagne Labs now.

One thing that has always bothered me about the Labrador conformation world is the holier-than-thou attitude that some folks have. Do some winning, and folks seem to lose perspective and forget that this is a hobby and is not a matter of life and death.
I'd bet that most current Lab breeders didn't start out with wonderful, well-bred Labs. And I'd bet that a good portion of them got their first Labs from less than stellar sources. In fact, I've had this conversation with a breeder, who if I named her kennel, you'd recognize it as having some of the top-winning Labs of the last few years. How'd she start? With a golden from a BYB!
Don't let the haters get to you. This is a free country. Love your silver Lab and learn as you go along.
Kathy

One thing that has always bothered me about the Labrador conformation world is the holier-than-thou attitude that some folks have. Do some winning, and folks seem to lose perspective and forget that this is a hobby and is not a matter of life and death.
I'd bet that most current Lab breeders didn't start out with wonderful, well-bred Labs. And I'd bet that a good portion of them got their first Labs from less than stellar sources. In fact, I've had this conversation with a breeder, who if I named her kennel, you'd recognize it as having some of the top-winning Labs of the last few years. How'd she start? With a golden from a BYB!
Don't let the haters get to you. This is a free country. Love your silver Lab and learn as you go along.
Kathy

Yeah, but did she keep breeding that BYB golden AFTER she found out about Reputable breeding? That's exactly what the 'silver' breeders are doing...

If someone truely got duped into thinking that a silver is a real color of Labrador, then found out that it's NOT, and truely wanted to get into Labradors and showing, etc, I wouldn't hesitate to place a dog with them... Just because someone has a 'silver' doesn't mean they are a bad person... They just got them from bad breeders.;)

Yeah, and to reproduce it, they had to do some MAJOR inbreeding... Take this pedigree for example SCARY:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/Dostaff/pedigreesilver.jpg

You know WHY they had to do such inbreeding? Because no other lab carried the dilute gene...

HOLY COW. Why do I hear the music from deliverance in the back ground?

Anyways to KATHY. If you'd pay attention, this thread is OLD. No one is hating on people with Silvers. People are hating on the unscrupulous "breeders". And lets face it, there are a lot of silver owners who are just as arrogant as the breeders are...boasting about their unique and rare dog.

See, this whole world would be a lot better if people would actually research some things before they invest in stuff. Oh, but then that is why we have overflowing shelters and stuff...isn't it? Because it's too easy to throw something away when it doesn't work out for us.

[QUOTE=Dani;1964364944]Anyways to KATHY. If you'd pay attention, this thread is OLD. No one is hating on people with Silvers.

Dani: I was replying to FG 167's post on how some people have treated her when they see her Lab. No need to get your drawers in a knot :rolleyes: Who cares if the thread is "old." It's the first time I read it. No way am I defending silver breeders. Just trying to be a little sympathetic.
I started out in Obedience with a BYB Lab. I remember how I felt when I realized that most breeders looked down their noses at me and my dog. I try not to do the same.
Kathy

A friend of mine rescued a doodle, so I feel your pain.

That said, its when people who own silvers go on a rampage telling people how wonderful they are, and that they are purebred etc.

Not everyone who started breeding got started with a BYB dog. I bought one, but knew better than to breed it.

FG167- Are you sure it was a breeder who said those things to you and not a handler?
Handlers come to the shows with quite a few dogs and they may be easy to mistake for a breeder if you don't know them.

I've run across some obnoxious handlers in my time- ones I certainly wouldn't of trusted with my dogs. A couple that I can think of offhand freely gave their opinion (negative) about everyone elses dogs without being asked. They were very bitter and seemed to need to share their opinion to "prove" that they knew something or maybe they were hoping that the Judge would overhear and it would help their dogs to win. Most of us stayed clear away when we could. Very venomous attitudes. One handler would deliberately trip you in the ring (Cocker Sp ring) if they could.

With everything you do with your Lab, I don't think you will have an issue finding a reputable breeder to sell you a show prospect. Keep talking to people at the shows. Maybe pm a breeder or two in your area so you can meet up with them at a show and they can introduce you around a little so you have a few people to talk with.

Kathy- I don't think anyone is hating on anyone else who has bought a silver Lab. I think most of us are upset that those breeders tout them and market them as a rare color and snooker people into purchasing them. If you look at that pedigree above and see the inbreeding, there are all sorts of health issues that go along with that.

They have doubled, tripled, quadrupled and more up on the same dog- that means that all the good genes are strong but it also means any health issues- hip/elbow displasia, eye issues, heart issues, blood disorders, thyroid issues, EIC, seizures, etc are all dominant so if that dog has genetic issues- the buyers of the pups are not getting a healthy dog but one that will probably have multiple issues down the road. Same goes for temperment.

Reputable breeders hardly ever inbreed and if they do it one generation, then they go to an outcrossing (totally unrelated) or a weaker linebreeding because we know the implications of inbreeding and we wouldn't risk the breed to make some fast money.

I think it is quite sad that some breed to make a fast buck with a complete disregard to the health of their pups instead of breeding with the goal to improve and to produce healthy, happy, well tempered and structured pups.

I'm almost afraid to see the puppy that came from the pedigree that was posted! Maybe 3 heads, or 5 legs? Yikes!!!!!!!

I have to say that I kind of agree. I also have a "silver" that I bought from a "breeder". No, I didn't know better. My boyfriend thought the color was pretty so we got him. When I do things with Mason at events that have well-bred labs, I get dirty looks, comments and rudeness. I've even been told that I might not be welcome places because of his color. Which, I think is ridiculous. I've also been told that if, in the future, I do want to get a potential show dog, I will have a lot of difficulty because he is in my household. I am not going to get rid of my dog so that others think I'm acceptable as a good pet owner.

Mason is a lovely dog, he's neutered, he has excellent hips and normal elbows (OFA'd) and he's a deployable Search and Rescue dog. He's got his CGC, he's passed several obedience, rally and agility classes. I dock jump with him and I've started flyball as well. He's friendly, happy, lives to retrieve, he is a snuggler and he loves people and food. I want to know what is not lab-like about that. Just because he came from a non-reputable breeder - does he (and we) deserve to be treated as less? Further, since I am now better informed and I have done everything I could think of to prove that and to make a good example of my dogs - why would I not be considered a good prospect for a show dog? Do I deserve to be prejudiced against forever because I bought a mixed dog unknowingly?

Finally, Mason was an extremely sickly puppy, I found this board through google and after lurking felt too uncomfortable asking for help based on the threads that I found on silvers - I hope that other unknowing "silver" owners do not feel the same...

Come on Falon. You know under what circumstances you were told those things. You spent a ton of time inquiring for bitch show bred puppies with a ton of Michigan breeders with two intact males in the house. One of which you bred and saw no problem doing that.

We've had several conversations and I even went out of my way to basically say that you were doing the right things to others when low and behold you get a pitt rescue and then go out and get a malinois puppy. I tried to talk to you at agility events, but you mostly blew me off. I did introduce you to some people at that one hunt test in Lansing, and I thank your boyfriend for some cool pictures, and you seem to have listened to the people who have told you to go out and get involved in performance events.

Here's the continuing problem. You proudly advertise Mason as a silver at dock diving events and have in the past on your website. That will be a huge turn off to people who have been in the breed for a long time. In fact, that is what people have said. For someone who is very computer and web savvy, it seems inconsistent that you wouldn't have run into the "controversy" prior to purchasing Mason.

Now, I don't have a problem with you or Mason, but I do have a problem with you painting everyone else as being rude, especially when there are a few of us that have taken the time to try and help you out. I applaud you for working your dogs, but also know that because you appear to be all over the place, people will question your motives. Is it right? I dunno. It's not for me to say.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

Come on Falon. You know under what circumstances you were told those things. You spent a ton of time inquiring for bitch show bred puppies with a ton of Michigan breeders with two intact males in the house. One of which you bred and saw no problem doing that.

We've had several conversations and I even went out of my way to basically say that you were doing the right things to others when low and behold you get a pitt rescue and then go out and get a malinois puppy. I tried to talk to you at agility events, but you mostly blew me off. I did introduce you to some people at that one hunt test in Lansing, and I thank your boyfriend for some cool pictures, and you seem to have listened to the people who have told you to go out and get involved in performance events.

Here's the continuing problem. You proudly advertise Mason as a silver at dock diving events and have in the past on your website. That will be a huge turn off to people who have been in the breed for a long time. In fact, that is what people have said. For someone who is very computer and web savvy, it seems inconsistent that you wouldn't have run into the "controversy" prior to purchasing Mason.

Now, I don't have a problem with you or Mason, but I do have a problem with you painting everyone else as being rude, especially when there are a few of us that have taken the time to try and help you out. I applaud you for working your dogs, but also know that because you appear to be all over the place, people will question your motives. Is it right? I dunno. It's not for me to say.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

I am only going to reply to the false statements because I feel that I am being falsely described and would like to clarify.

I was not talking about you. I did not say that "everyone" was rude.

Also, my one intact male was a puppy at that time - not even a year old. I did not have a problem with breeding my dog because I did not know better at the time.

The Pit Bull rescue is my boyfriend's baby. I don't see anything wrong with rescuing a dog in need but I do see a problem with telling someone I love that he can't have a different breed. Oh, and he is the computer/web savvy one as he is the one that is a web developer. I am a med tech, which does not involve IT work of any kind.

The Belgian Malinois is actually a Dutch Shepherd, whom I got after becoming involved with Search and Rescue. He is a working dog and I look forward to hopefully utilizing him to help find missing people. If not, so be it. I love him and will work him anyway.

I blew you off at that trial, one because I didn't recognize you right away and was extremely nervous - to the point of nauseousness. I planned to come back to talk to you afterwards but ended up leaving immediately following my run because my dog took a flying leap off of the top of the A-frame and seriously terrified me. There is video to back that up. I cried afterwards.

I do not proudly advertise Mason as any color - I focus on his achievements, of which I am very proud. I've corrected that information every single time I've registered him and they continue to call him that. Regardless, people do come up and ask me about him/where I got him (because they are going to call him a silver whether I do or not) and I tell them he is a mix and about the problems we had as a puppy with him (which were many and expensive).

I don't know if I'll ever be interested in a show bred lab puppy again - there have been far too many highly unpleasant experiences in regards to that.

I would ask that if anyone else wants to discuss personal information of mine that I've shared privately - that they please PM me. Thank you.

I was not talking about you. I did not say that "everyone" was rude.
I didn't take it as you directly talking to me.

I do not proudly advertise Mason as any color - I focus on his achievements, of which I am very proud.
I'm not going to argue specifics because you know what, I've never had a problem with you...and again, went to the line in your favor on many occaision to have people give you a chance. But you do describe Mason as a light chocolate dog. And you should be proud of his achievements. I also note that is registered name also has the word "silver" in it.

I don't know if I'll ever be interested in a show bred lab puppy again - there have been far too many highly unpleasant experiences in regards to that.


Now that is where I have to say something I've told you all along...you have to have MUCH thicker skin than that in order to even want to compete in conformation. Michigan is COMPETITIVE and EVERYONE who wants a show quality dog is highly scrutinized. You just happen to have a dog that would send a ton of people into suspect. Again, is it wrong? I'm not a breeder but I do hold many of the member of HRLRC in high regard and I know that this gets their panties in a twist.

I love/hate the politics of showing. I love the conformation dog. I have sat back and learned from the best in this country. I want to continue to learn. I have also been shocked by some pretty crazy behavior. But ultimately I have learned that the Labrador community is small and they all talk, so it's best to show your best all of the time and to have a thick skin or it's not worth doing.

I do not proudly advertise Mason as any color - I focus on his achievements, of which I am very proud. I've corrected that information every single time I've registered him and they continue to call him that. Regardless, people do come up and ask me about him/where I got him (because they are going to call him a silver whether I do or not) and I tell them he is a mix and about the problems we had as a puppy with him (which were many and expensive).


Though you asked for PMs, I wanted to say 1) I commend you for working your dogs, esp in SAR; and 2) for stating here that you consider him a mix. He IS an attractive looking dog, yes-- but he's not a Chocolate lab and yet (which is why I *think* some are upset) he is indeed noted as a "chocolate lab" on your site. Perhaps if you asked your boyfriend to add "mix" to that, that would put some people more at ease.

Before some ask themselves "What's the big deal?".... I'll try to explain why it bothers me. There are those of us in love with the Labrador breed and it IS a concern when dogs are mislabeled. Years ago, when I first got into Labs, I don't remember anyone ever asking me or others if our dog was a "purebred lab" (even if clearly a byb!). So why is it now that people even claiming to be involved heavily in Lab rescue can't recognize even the basic traits of the breed? :confused: I think it's because they are really confused by all the mixes being listed as purebreds, personally. I've donated AKC breed posters of both adults and puppies in the past, but have all but given up trying to help our local shelter and rescues correct their "breed identification" labels they still use. They can't seem to even notice that every breed in the AKC Sporting group has DROP ears-- there's not a hint of a prick eared dog there but yet look how many pit and shepherd mixes get labeled as Lab mixes (as if the Lab component dominates) at the shelters? Why do they do that? I think at first they wanted to adopt them out so badly, they didn't CARE if they misrepresented them. Now, I think it's gone so far that the average citizen no longer has a clue WHAT a Lab is supposed to look like so they honestly think they are labeling them correctly. Anyhow, that's my take. I got to the point (when presented w/ some mixes) that I said, what is wrong w/ calling it a Heinz 57? Call it what it is... don't try to make yet another designer breed out of it!

I actually received a rescue inquiry the other day for a chocolate OR silver lab. I think that is scary, personally, because our breed is well defined by standard, yet too few buyers bother to read it. And as a breeder, I pull my hair out w/ people who only want a Chocolate and want to put their name on one of my three, 3 day old choc puppies just because they are chocolate. Needless to say, I have to explain that my placement decisions are at least 7 wks off and since I have several people "just" wanting a nice "labrador" puppy (no pref on color), it's alot easier to place the right temperament, energy level, etc, with those folks when the time comes w/o having the color restrictions to work with. I really do try to understand color preferences but it sure is limiting folks in some cases to making some bad decisions. Anyhow, that's my 2cents on the subject. Anne