:goodbad: I'm not trying to offend anyone but I have been really surprised at all the recomendations on the net about feeding raw foods and bones of any kind. I am a professional Chef and will not prepare nor allow on my menu dishes such as sushi or steak tartar due to risks of food borne illnesses, mercury poisoning etc. I won't under any circumstances risk the health of strangers why would I put the health of my best furry buddy at risk? Perhaps I'm under educated I have only had two dogs before Luther, one Cocker Spanial for sixteen years, and one Flat coated retriever for seventeen years. The Spanial, my first dog, almost died of impacted bowels at four years of age from me feeding her raw marrow bones, and no she didn.t splinter them she just couldn't digest them. The reason I started this thread is because it was the worst feeling to have been the reason for my trusting friend to have almost died and thirty years later it still is.Here is an URL that probibly explains it better, http//www.petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=Myths&PageName=/myths/default.asp Oh yes My retriever had a very similar experience though not as severe when a well meaning friend was employed as dog sitter one weekend and fed my,as she saw it , deprived dog several raw venison bones

I am a professional Chef and will not prepare nor allow on my menu dishes such as sushi or steak tartar due to risks of food borne illnesses, mercury poisoning etc.

dogs are not people... feeding raw meat to a person and feeding it to a dog are two completely different things. there are several threads about this in the natural diets section.

I won't under any circumstances risk the health of strangers why would I put the health of my best furry buddy at risk?

um, yeah i feel the same way. i dont risk the health of strangers or my dog.

luthersma, there is section of the boards called "Natural Diets", if you read around there im sure all of your questions will be answered.

BTW my dog's diet is fully supported by our veteranarian.

and welcome to the board! :)

Dogs and humans have VERY different digestive tracts, Luthersma. Also, dogs are carnivores. Their bodies were designed by nature to eat raw meat (their teeth remain those of a carnivore).

my first dog, almost died of impacted bowels at four years of age from me feeding her raw marrow bones, and no she didn.t splinter them she just couldn't digest them

I'm so sorry to hear this, but a bit confused. I give my dogs raw marrow bones for recreational chewing, but they don't actually eat the bones. They gnaw on them, but don't consume them. They do eat raw chicken bones, and other bones that they are able to crush and which digest naturally.

Dogs have an acidic stomach (pH level of >1) - not bacteria-friendly. Salmonella bacteria need a pH level of at least 4 (or higher) to grow, with the most growth of bacteria occuring at a pH level of 6.5-7.5. Also, the length of a dog’s digestive tract is 3-4m (much shorter than our 8-9m digestive tracts) which allows a shorter timeframe between mealtime and bowel movement. The shorter the time spent in the system, the less likely it is that Salmonella can break through the gastrointestinal wall and make the dog ill. Not to say the dogs don't have Salmonella bacteria in their systems, but it does not affect them the same way it affects people.
(http://www.kaboomboxers.com/kaboomboxers_health.htm)

Those of us who understand the logic of, or actually feed our dogs (and cats, and ferrets) raw, or otherwise meat-based homemade diets are just as horrified by commercial dog food (http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/showthread.php?t=26776), which has only been available for a few decades, and which began as a way of profiting from the waste products of the human food industry. Over the years, people have come to accept that this pelleted grain-based dog meal is what our dogs are supposed to eat because the major corporations who make this food (Colgate Palmolive, Nestle, Mars, etc.) have convinced us to through their multi-million dollar marketing campaigns. The profit margins for these manufacturers is huge.

No other animals (including humans) would be expected to live out every day of their lives eating a highly processed cereal comprised of foods our bodies were never expected to digest easily. We are encouraged to eat a varied diet of fresh, wholesome foods. It is live foods that truly nourish both people and animals. Animals thrive on the live enzymes, phytochemicals, antioxidants, and unadulterated amino acids, vitamins and minerals that only raw food can provide. While commercial pet foods are convenient, most contain sub-standard or condemned meats. And because they are also highly processed at extreme temperatures, they are devoid of many of the building blocks of good health, and often full of questionable preservatives. So, commercial pet foods may sustain life, but unlike raw diets, they do not contain the life-enhancing nutrition that promotes health.

Cats and dogs are carnivores. Yet ALL dry commercial pet foods are at least 60% (or more) grain because the carbohydrates are needed to hold the food together. But as The Merck Veterinary Manual (8th ed., pg. 1628) tells us, dogs and cats have "no dietary requirement for carbohydrate." Does it make sense to feed our carnivores a diet that contains at least 60% of a substance they don't even need? Additionally, carbohydrates are metabolized by the body to glucose (sugar) which is known to feed cancers, diabetes and many other disorders that now plague our companion animals. If grains and vegetables were a primary nutrient source, you'd see cats and dogs stalking ears of corn and heads of wheat.

Raw diets simulate the menu that nature intended carnivores to eat. When a carnivore eats an herbivore like a rabbit, the carnivore eats some meat, some bone, some organ meats (liver, heart, kidney, etc.), and some green vegetation contained in the herbivore's digestive tract. That's nature's perfect meal - the meal that raw diets replicate.

:cheers2: well said, zen.

Zen..Great post. I always feel so bad about feeding kibble when I read what you have to say. :( Hopefully, one day, I'll be able to switch to raw.

I always feel so bad about feeding kibble when I read what you have to say

Jon, I *so* don't intend to make anyone feel bad!!!! I've had cats all my life and dogs for the past 12 years and I only just learned about this stuff. Growing up, our cats ate Purina Cat Chow, but they also were hunters and had a steady supply of real food too. I learned about the ramifications of eating (and feeding my family) highly processed, preserved, depleted foods several years ago because my son was so sick, but it took quite a long time before the fact that the same principals apply to pet foods actually sunk in!

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/104-pets.html
http://www.pspetpavilion.com/pet_news.htm
http://www.petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=Myths&PageName=/myths/default.asp
I'm sorry an opposing opinion offends so deeply here! I will not feel bad for not wanting to risk my companions health on a fad. I have been a successful dog owner for over 30 years,and not that anyone asks but I have cooked for my dogs all those years, they have reaped the benifits. But through many years of experience I refuse to feed raw or bones of any kind. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what they should do but I am sharing my opinion,I can see it is not wanted,and will refrain in future. Maybe I would not feel this way if anyone had said they had even taken the time to read the info in the earlier URL

okay, number one your link in your OP did not work.

number two, as for your other links of course i came across all of this during my initial research. i have heard this before.

number three, sorry if i sounded snippy but your OP did offend me... the implication was that those of us who feed this way are intentionally putting our pets at risk or that we had not done the proper research.

and FYI, i am certainly not advocating this diet as the only way to properly feed a dog. your OP came kind of out of nowhere. has someone been trying to persuade you to feed raw?

number four, dogs eating meat is in no way a fad... dogfood has only existed for less than one hundred years. dogs have existed for thousands. no way dogs eating meat is a fad.

I don't think you offended anyone. I think people are just sharing their opinions. I did go to all the links that you posted. Obviously, there are differing opinions. I would like to know if a pet food company is behind those links though. please, keep sharing.

lovefor4labs is right, your opinion is very welcome but geez maybe work a bit on your tone instead of coming here and basically saying "why are you risking your dogs lives?" this is a dog board, obviously we are all dog lovers... we are all doing what we think is best for our dogs.

happyhomer it is more like commercial food is 60 yrs and less and the most popular brand back then was Banner bits :rolleyes:
Our dogs seem very healthy and happy on a natural diet if people didn't know what they where doing as far as feeding themselves (ok I realize there are many that have the golden arches for a staple) our world would be in a very sad shape. Having said that you will always find pros and cons for feeding either natural or commercial, but we will stick to natural.

I will not feel bad for not wanting to risk my companions health on a fad. I have been a successful dog owner for over 30 years,and not that anyone asks but I have cooked for my dogs all those years, they have reaped the benifits

I don't think anyone was trying to make you feel bad :( We raw feeders and kibble feeders coexist quite happily and cooperatively on this board, and try to help each other with whatever diet we are on, and not by trying to bully or intimidate others into embracing our own point of view.

I make a pretty significant number of posts every day. I'd say most of those posts have to do with helping other people figure out what is in their current kibble, what other kibbles they might consider, etc. etc. etc. but at no point have I said "Oh stop feeding kibble, you're putting your dog's life in danger, there's only one way to feed a dog."

I *do* encourage them to try to find a food with the highest possible meat content, though, since dogs are carnivores. Raw feeding is just the ultimate end of a diet high in meat.

I'm sorry if you felt that there was combativeness here. It doesn't make me angry when someone says its risky to feed my dogs raw meat and bones. I don't see any logic or truth in the statement so I don't have an angry reaction to it. It does make me angry when a veterinarian recommends that somebody feed their dogs a meatless cereal made of corn flour, soybean flour, peanut hulls and carcinogenic preservatives, and then charges them $2 or more per pound for it, without even considering what the dog is currently eating, though*.

*Science Diet Light Formula Canine Maintenance $8.50 for 5 lbs (plus tax) (possibly one of my least favorite foods in the universe)
Ground corn, soybean mill run 16% (a source of fiber), poultry by-product meal, peanut hulls 11.6% (a source of fiber), vegetable oil, natural flavor, dried egg product, iodized salt, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, flaxseed, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, vitamin A supplement, D-activated animal sterol, vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine, preserved with BHT and BHA, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement.

Luthermas there is quite a strong natural/barf society in BC in fact there are a number of breeders out there that have raised generations of their dogs with this diet and are seeing great rewards in ongoing health and genetics of their lines.

Just for interest, we've already read those links. A lot of research and thought goes into a properly fed raw diet.

Did you read the link I gave you?

I'm sorry if you felt that there was combativeness here. It doesn't make me angry when someone says its risky to feed my dogs raw meat and bones.



i usually dont get angry either. people ask the same questions about food poisoning, etc all the time....but i got the impression that luthersma was trying to start an fight. especially after that second post. everybody was nice to her, thought they disagreed. i re-read and can still find no reason for the tone of her second post. okay, okay, i am guilty of sarcasm...

quote happyhomer:
um, yeah i feel the same way. i dont risk the health of strangers or my dog.

and for that i apologize. but other than that, i cant see anything that warrants so defensive a response.

Discussion and dialogue is great, and in fact should be encouraged!

Why even I agree that there are always 2 (and more often three) sides to a story or point of view...with that being said though...the last time I checked there were no Coleman stoves in the woods, and I've yet to see any animals gathering around the campfire and cooking their food!

Call me wild and out there...(but I'm sure you're calling me sarcastic and facetious!) Please don't take offense...I tend to deflect conflict with humour!

I did look at the links that you provided and in the spirit of Continious Improvement...thank you for sharing. I did agree with many points including 1,3,5,6 & 7 found at www.petdiets.com.

However I greatly disagree with points 2, 4 & 8
2. While yes, homemade diets are at risk of not being nutritional if not prepared properly. I know that those here who do prepare home diets have put much effort and research into this and don't take the decision lightly (Barf diet included). Just like the homemade meals that you prepare for your precious lab, (and from reading your postings, I know that you care very much), I'm sure you put the extra effort and care into making it the most nutritious. So in fact...I'm sure you would disagree with point 2...so look we're already agreeing on some things! :)

4. What really has me concerned was the point that Preservatives don't cause cancer and other diseases.

As humans we are becoming more and more aware of the risk of many preservatives and overly processed foods (all one needs to do is watch Super Size Me or look to the media for the fear of free radicals and bad fats), and as a Chef I'm sure you know the benefits of good wholesome food. Sure...one can live off of Kraft Dinner and McDonald's...it doesn't make it healthy, but it can be done. So I think we might actually agree on another point (however...I could be totally off my mark too, and if I am please forgive and we can go back to agreeing to disagree).

8. Proponents of the BARF diet (Bones and Raw Food) also have scientific backing and I know that Zencat and HappyHomer can better direct you than I can. There is always the risk of choking, but I am a firm believer in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Choking can occur with any type of soft food too (i.e. baby food, soup, oatmeal, jello, etc) that doesn't mean that we stop eating these items does it?

Animals from the beginning of time have eaten their food raw. In fact, it's only been since the 20th century that commercial dog food was even introduced. I'm sure the pioneers on the praries would have laughed at the thought of going out and actually buying food for a dog...of all animals! :wink:

Like I said before...we all have our own beliefs and the great thing about being civil humans is we can agree to disagree if we can't reach a mutal decision. Please don't let this prevent you from posting in again. In fact...I welcome the open dialogue!

Welcome to the board!!!:)

Zen..Great post. I always feel so bad about feeding kibble when I read what you have to say. :( Hopefully, one day, I'll be able to switch to raw.

You shouldn't feel bad...a proper kibble is just as healthy as a raw diet and healthier than the many unbalanced raw diets out there.

I tried feeding raw, but I never found out what was not in balance that caused Jes' coat to deteriorate so badly. He does better on kibble, and I'm more satisfied that I'm feeding a proper diet going this route than I was going raw. Everyone has their own preference and I don't know why people try so hard to make the "other side" feel badly about what they're doing.

a proper kibble is just as healthy as a raw diet

I don't agree with this statement, but I do agree with the remainder of the sentence. An unresearched raw diet is dangerous (i.e. feeding raw meat without bone or proper calcium).

Everyone has their own preference and I don't know why people try so hard to make the "other side" feel badly about what they're doing.
And I don't agree with this statement either. I don't think any of us - the hard core raw feeders - make any attempt - let alone "try so hard" to make those who feed kibble feel bad. We *do* encourage them to include some fresh real foods in the diet (veggies, fruits, fish, etc.) or in the cases of serious or chronic illness, to consider a homemade diet, which is also promoted by strict traditional as well as holistic veterinarians under the same circumstances.

this thread is really something else...

Dad of Jes, who tried to make anyone feel bad?

That's alright...I don't agree with a lot that you say either. ;) I firmly believe that a proper kibble diet is just as healthy...I've seen the results first-hand to believe otherwise.

And Lisa, I'm not necessarily talking about you...I never ever said you made anyone feel bad. You'd be kidding yourself if you don't believe people have tried to give me the guilt trip about feeding kibble...it happens. I'd be kidding myself if I didn't believe kibble-feeders give BARFers a hard time for feeding a raw diet.

okay i gotcha dad of jes, please disregard my last post. you were not speaking specificly about this thread. i try to go out of my way to NOT make people feel bad, but thats just cause i am a big softy myself.

Sorry for the confusion...I'm not talking about anyone specifically here.

Cool. I'm happy with how this conversation went :)

Back to what I was saying earlier, I think we can all help each other out here. How we choose to feed our dogs doesn't make us less sympathetic. I'm always happy to help others weed through the gazillions of kibble out there to try to find the best ones. And as we all know, the best kibbles in my opinion are all about MEAT and less about the peanut hulls ;)

Dad of Jes, just out of curiosity (i SWEAR there is no attempted re-enlistment or otherwise 'negative' agenda here!!), how long did you try the raw diet with Jes, and what did you feed?

I ask because last summer, when Grip was doing so incredibly on raw, I switched Drum over and he did very badly. So we went back to kibble and had Drum initially improved and then they both started going downhill till the NB P&D when they levelled off for 6 months but then Drum started refusing that. I started feeding raw again March 1st and its a whole different ball game with Drum, and he's taken to it incredibly well. I haven't been able to figure out what the difference is between my raw diet last summer and this one that he should have reacted so differently. Last year we spent about 1 month with him on raw. This time he detoxed for about 2 weeks and then everything started going great.

It was a little over a year ago...so specifics are quickly fading ;).

I fed it for about 8 months. I checked out many of the books, and formulated a diet along the lines recommended by Dr. Billinghurst. We used muscle meat (turkey, venison, and/or chicken), chicken backs, chicken necks, turkey necks, fish, veggies (mainly green leafy veggies with some carrots and other veggies...I'm drawing a blank now). I also added the typical round of supplements (flaxseed oil, vitamins, etc.).

Any idea where I went wrong? It still bugs me to this day that I never figured it out. I allowed at least a month after a change in diet to give see if it helped or hurt. My hunch is that the omega-6s and omega-3s were out of whack, but you'd think more people feeding that diet would report that as well.

Don't worry...I'm not interpreting this as a sly attempt to sneak me back over to the "other side." Seriously though, I don't have anything against raw, but we're happy with what we see on kibble for now. If he develops an allergy or doesn't tolerate his food, I'm at least open to taking another stab at it.

Here's another book I read according to my account with Amazon.com

Raw Dog Food: Make It Easy for You and Your Dog
by Carina Beth Macdonald
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1929242093/qid=1113862006/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-5508714-3577607?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I also added the typical round of supplements (flaxseed oil, vitamins, etc.).

That would be my guess. I recently discovered that I've been oversupplementing myself (me, not my dogs) accidentally and causing all SORTS of problems. I'm trying to remember, too, but I think I still may have been giving Drum NuPro with his raw last year. Now I rarely give supplements of any kind to the dogs, but rather give nutritional variety (meats, veggies, fruits).

I was including olive oil in their meat/veggie mix up until recently, too, but Grip's coat started feeling a bit too soft. I had been giving it for dandruff, only the dandruff didn't improve till I stopped giving the olive oil! I pretty much now reserve additional supplements when there's a particular issue that needs a boost, like if Grip tears up a footpad, I'll give him extra E until it heals.

I think oversupplementation is something all of us could benefit from learning more about (for ourselves AND our dogs!).

I'm sure if my two boys had not had the problems they had, I never would have discovered raw diets either, but now that I know... well, it just fits into the rest of our lifestyle very logically.

Luthersma, you're entitled to your thoughts on this, and those of us who feed "homemade" diets, our thoughts. I'm sorry your experiences with raw bones hasn't been good.

The Spanial, my first dog, almost died of impacted bowels at four years of age from me feeding her raw marrow bones, and no she didn.t splinter them she just couldn't digest them.
I question the size of this marrow bone that your Spaniel could swallow it?