Our 11 week old puppy, Bacon, had his first vet appointment 2 weeks ago. The vet said he was very healthy, except he was a bit underweight. We had him on NutriSource at first, as this is what our breeder was feeding him. We increased his food by 1/2 cup per day according to the feeding guidelines. This caused him to get VERY bloated and have loose bowel movements. Also, we feed him 3 times a day but he was pooing 5 times a day. It seemed to me that he wasn't getting anything from that food and I have now switched him to Horizon Legacy puppy formula. The loose, excessive bowel movements have now regulated, but he still doesn't seem to be gaining much weight. Do i feed him more then the recommended portions on the bag, or wait a bit longer to see if he starts to plump up a bit? He's only been on the new food a couple days, but when we saw a 10 week old lab that was bigger than him today I started wondering why our little guy is so small. Help!

Puppies grow at their own rates... yeah, there's charts and whatever but EVERY puppy is different and will only get as big as genetics allow.

If he is having good, solid stools on the new food, I'd leave well enough alone... keep feeding what you are feeding and if he drops weight or doesn't put any on, gradually increase.

Horizon's a good food.

I'd wait it out a bit longer, if he just started that new food, it could take a few weeks to really see a difference.

In all honesty, my latest guy didn't seem like he ever wanted to gain weight either; seemed like it took forever...however, he is very healthy, just skin and bones...but that's his genetic make up too.

I'd personally leave your pup be, sounds like he's on a good food that's agreeing with him now, it'll just take time for his system to turn things around and start absorbing the nutrients rather then releasing them rather abruptly.

That Horizon Legacy food contains 482 k/cals per cup and is 40% protein. There are tons of ingredients in this food and if your dog can tolerate all of them that is great because it does look like a super premium dog food. Hate to ask what it cost. It's down on the ingredient list, but I bet the dried pumpkin meal may be helping firm things up a bit. This is the first food I've seen that contained pumpkin as one of the ingredients. I would watch that 1.94% Calcium level in this food, kind of high and IMHO would switch to the adult variety at about 16 weeks. They do not give the calcium level for the adult variety, but I would assume it's a lot lower.

I also see it is has very limited distribution in the US, wonder why? It really looks like an excellent food.

You have to remember that dogs are like people somewhat when it comes to weight. I know people that eat like a horse and are thin as a rail and others that watch everything they eat and are fat as sows, go figure, same thing for dogs. I would just watch his energy level and all around well being, if it's good, I wouldn't worry about his weight that much.

I would check for a parasite or possibly worms. Get a fecal sample to the vets and have them analyze it so you rule out bad stuff. I also think the the high level of protein may be difficult to digest is a little baby. Maybe mix it with something else, maybe rice? Something to add calories without too much fat.

And, he could just be a skinny boy....

That Horizon Legacy food contains 482 k/cals per cup and is 40% protein. There are tons of ingredients in this food and if your dog can tolerate all of them that is great because it does look like a super premium dog food. Hate to ask what it cost. It's down on the ingredient list, but I bet the dried pumpkin meal may be helping firm things up a bit. This is the first food I've seen that contained pumpkin as one of the ingredients. I would watch that 1.94% Calcium level in this food, kind of high and IMHO would switch to the adult variety at about 16 weeks. They do not give the calcium level for the adult variety, but I would assume it's a lot lower.


Calcium in adult versions isn't always lower.

Do double check to see if the calcium is lower in the adult, if it is, you may want to switch...otherwise, if it's the same, I'd leave the pup alone....many of times dogs can go on eating the puppy versions of foods for life as long as it says ALL life Stages on the bag.....which, all of them do, for the ones I've run across.

Dried pumpkin meal can actually be a good thing, and probably a lot healthier then say beet pulp.

Horizon doesn't have much distrubution here yet cause it's another Canadian food, they're very new to the States, IIRC>

Increasing food by 1/2 cup per day would definately cause loose stools. I would assume you took a stool sample in on his first vet visit. If not, drop one off at the vet to be safe.

1.9 calcium is too high for a growing Lab. You want 1.5 or lower.

1.9 calcium is too high for a growing Lab. You want 1.5 or lower.

Totally disagree....there is no fact to back that up....Only dogs ever affected by Calcium was Great Danes with leg bone length like a horse...

It is the ratio of Calcium to Phosphorous that allows good health....it should be in the 2 to 1 range....

The problem with Legacy, CORE, Orijen,and EVO is that it will encourage too much muscle mass ahead of the bone growth....because of the excess protein...
http://www.horizonpetfood.com/IngredientFAQ/whichformulapuppy.html
Here is what Horizon says...
I would like to put our 4 month old large breed puppy onto Horizon food. What formula would you recommend? Can we just give her Legacy Adult formula?

With a dog that will be over 80 pounds fully-developed, you should be feeding Complete Puppy until the dog is about 80% of full adult weight. What you are really trying to do is allow your dog to develop both in terms of skeletal and muscle at appropriate rates. The high protein levels in Legacy will promote muscular development ahead of skeletal. With Complete Puppy, we balance the calcium and phosphorus ratios and quantities to protein levels to meet exactly what a large breed puppy requires.

Once the dog is at about 80% of adult weight, it will be done developing and will just need to fill-out with muscle. At that time, you could transition onto Legacy over a few days. The amount you should be feeding a 30 lb puppy of Legacy Puppy is approximately 1.5-1.8 cups per day. If you switch to Complete Puppy, it would be slightly more at 1.8-2 cups per day. The best thing that anyone can do for their dog is to watch your dog's condition and adjust the quantity they are feeding them accordingly.

I agree with Patty, I wouldn't feed a puppy over 1.5% calcium.

I agree with Patty, I wouldn't feed a puppy over 1.5% calcium.
Why...?

There is absolutely no reason to worry...that myth was propagated by Iams/Eukannuba to sell Lg. breed puppy food....

Dogs for millions of years have eaten the same diet their family eats every day...just less....in nature the perfect ratio is 2-1 CA to Ph

It makes more sense dogs getting joint disorders don't get enough collagen and Calcium to encourage strong joints...and may get too much protein that encourages too much muscle before bones are strong enough to support them....All dogs need tremendous amounts of Calcium for proper growth and health.....what you don't want is rapid growth by over feeding..

But you can choose to believe what you want...I choose to believe Dr. Pitcairn....and Dr. Belfield...two experts on joints and food...


http://www.drpitcairn.com/nutrition/nutrition_index.html
We also know that animals need to have a balance of calcium to phosphorus in the ratio of 2:1, e.g., twice as much calcium as phosphorus

I would agree on the Iams/Eukanuba scam.

My vet told me it's okay to feed a puppy food with lots of calcium, but only for the first 12 weeks, and no longer than 16 weeks of the dogs life, then switch to an adult ALS food with lower calcium levels. Too much calcium as a pup can result in long boned and long legged labs, very unsightly.

If you're looking for a food less then 1.5% MAX calcium, the only food I recommend then, would be Innova large breed puppy food, it contains .09% Max calcium, and is probably the only true Large breed puppy food that really does contain LESS calcium then adult foods.

I brought Rivers up on the Innova from 5mnths to 9mnths of age, then switched him to Orijen large breed puppy, with a max calcium of 1.7%

These are the ONLY two foods I'm aware of with that little of a calcium amount....perhaps others can list more foods less then 1.5% calcium along with their recommendation of staying at less then 1.8%

If you're looking for a food less then 1.5% MAX calcium, the only food I recommend then, would be Innova large breed puppy food, it contains .09% Max calcium, and is probably the only true Large breed puppy food that really does contain LESS calcium then adult foods.

I brought Rivers up on the Innova from 5mnths to 9mnths of age, then switched him to Orijen large breed puppy, with a max calcium of 1.7%

These are the ONLY two foods I'm aware of with that little of a calcium amount....perhaps others can list more foods less then 1.5% calcium along with their recommendation of staying at less then 1.8%

The Acana Provincial line of grain-free all life stages formulas (3 different ones with protein at 34%) has a calcium level of 1.3%. This is the same company that makes Orijen.

While I would not feed puppies a formula like EVO or Wellness Core with their calcium levels of 2% or more, I find it difficult to be overly concerned about levels of 1.4 versus 1.6% calcium for puppies.

I would agree on the Iams/Eukanuba scam.

My vet told me it's okay to feed a puppy food with lots of calcium, but only for the first 12 weeks, and no longer than 16 weeks of the dogs life, then switch to an adult ALS food with lower calcium levels. Too much calcium as a pup can result in long boned and long legged labs, very unsightly.

Bearsowner, you should find another vet. Your vet either doesn't know much about nutrition or (more likely) you aren't listening/understanding what he's saying or you're relaying the info that your vet is giving out incorrectly. Puppy food is typically higher in protein and fat and lower in calcium while adult food usually has the opposite, lower levels of protein and fat and higher in calcium. All Life Stages (ALS) food is puppy food. Too much calcium as a pup won't result in an adult dog that is any taller than one who ate a more modest level of calcium as a pup.

Dogs do require a lot more calcium than people do but a modest level of calcium is helpful in dogs that are prone to orthopedic issues. Dr. Pitcairn says " It is difficult to find sources of calcium that can add this much to the diet." Dr. Pitcairn is talking about a home-prepared diet and commercial dog foods are never lacking in calcium. In the link provided by Uplander, Dr. Pitcairn says "...it seems wise to supply the amounts of calcium that are typical of the natural diet....". Even CN L&R has a lower Ca:P ratio (1.6:1) than the 2:1 that Dr. Pitcairn suggests.

"It is not completely clear that they must have this much calcium to be healthy. In other words, perhaps they can adapt to lower levels. It certainly seems that way for many of the animals I have known that, for one reason or another, have had small amounts of calcium in their diets. They often seem just fine." This quote from Pitcairn says alot and research along these lines have shown that fast growing dogs (larger breeds) can benefit from lower levels of calcium. One doesn't know if a particular dog's genetic makeup is not going to have orthopedic issues so why take chances? You may wish to take chances with your dog but how would you feel if your advice resulted in problems for someones puppy?

Animal sources of calcium in a natural diet have their drawbacks. Dr. Pitcairn points out "Bones can also contain toxic elements like arsenic, lead, mercury, & radioactive strontium." "Very few veterinarians know this or consider this when treating ill animals yet excess lead can cause a myriad of serious problems including anemia, intestinal problems and disorders leading to death."

Bearsowner, you should find another vet. Your vet either doesn't know much about nutrition or (more likely) you aren't listening/understanding what he's saying or you're relaying the info that your vet is giving out incorrectly. Puppy food is typically higher in protein and fat and lower in calcium while adult food usually has the opposite, lower levels of protein and fat and higher in calcium. All Life Stages (ALS) food is puppy food. Too much calcium as a pup won't result in an adult dog that is any taller than one who ate a more modest level of calcium as a pup.

Dogs do require a lot more calcium than people do but a modest level of calcium is helpful in dogs that are prone to orthopedic issues. Dr. Pitcairn says " It is difficult to find sources of calcium that can add this much to the diet." Dr. Pitcairn is talking about a home-prepared diet and commercial dog foods are never lacking in calcium. In the link provided by Uplander, Dr. Pitcairn says "...it seems wise to supply the amounts of calcium that are typical of the natural diet....". Even CN L&R has a lower Ca:P ratio (1.6:1) than the 2:1 that Dr. Pitcairn suggests.

"It is not completely clear that they must have this much calcium to be healthy. In other words, perhaps they can adapt to lower levels. It certainly seems that way for many of the animals I have known that, for one reason or another, have had small amounts of calcium in their diets. They often seem just fine." This quote from Pitcairn says alot and research along these lines have shown that fast growing dogs (larger breeds) can benefit from lower levels of calcium. One doesn't know if a particular dog's genetic makeup is not going to have orthopedic issues so why take chances? You may wish to take chances with your dog but how would you feel if your advice resulted in problems for someones puppy?

Animal sources of calcium in a natural diet have their drawbacks. Dr. Pitcairn points out "Bones can also contain toxic elements like arsenic, lead, mercury, & radioactive strontium." "Very few veterinarians know this or consider this when treating ill animals yet excess lead can cause a myriad of serious problems including anemia, intestinal problems and disorders leading to death."
From Natura's web site....Cal Nat Lamb...N/A
Where are you getting your info ?
Calcium 2.14 %
Phosphorous 1.33 %

I take it you don't like Cal Nat for what ever reason...But they try to formulate it to be " Natural " You twist my post around to home made or raw diets....What the Dr. was pointing out is that all animals do best on a 2-1 ratio...That is the ideal....


On feeding any ALS food....no I don't think the food will ever cause joint issues except to a Great Dane...They need special food...Labs are a medium breed dog with weight issues...so feeding to keep a proper weight is important...The 1.5 is something with no science to back it up...just something to spend more $$ on because you have to feed twice as much...

One must remember these are ratios....not actual weight amounts....I could argue this point till the cows come home...but never win...because some people are very anal and precise and measure everything out....In nature one day you might get meat to eat..another just a bone...in the end your genetics will decide most of every issue you will ever encounter medically.I have never read low Calcium diets prevent joint issues...only help is it may delay..Why? You ask..It takes a dog longer to mature fed the Lg. breed foods, but if you got bad genes it is not going to help.In the end it is about your parents... Vit C and collagen are the only thing that makes stronger joints...the connective tissue...If joints are loose then the bone can wear down the cartilage causing arthritis....Pet food makers prey on the uneducated....and get them to believe voodoo science...

From Natura's web site....Cal Nat Lamb...N/A
Where are you getting your info ?
Calcium 2.14 %
Phosphorous 1.33 %

I take it you don't like Cal Nat for what ever reason...But they try to formulate it to be " Natural " You twist my post around to home made or raw diets....What the Dr. was pointing out is that all animals do best on a 2-1 ratio...That is the ideal....


On feeding any ALS food....no I don't think the food will ever cause joint issues except to a Great Dane...They need special food...Labs are a medium breed dog with weight issues...so feeding to keep a proper weight is important...The 1.5 is something with no science to back it up...just something to spend more $$ on because you have to feed twice as much...

One must remember these are ratios....not actual weight amounts....I could argue this point till the cows come home...but never win...because some people are very anal and precise and measure everything out....In nature one day you might get meat to eat..another just a bone...in the end your genetics will decide most of every issue you will ever encounter medically.I have never read low Calcium diets prevent joint issues...only help is it may delay..Why? You ask..It takes a dog longer to mature fed the Lg. breed foods, but if you got bad genes it is not going to help.In the end it is about your parents... Vit C and collagen are the only thing that makes stronger joints...the connective tissue...If joints are loose then the bone can wear down the cartilage causing arthritis....Pet food makers prey on the uneducated....and get them to believe voodoo science...

There is 1.61 times as much calcium in CN L&R then there is phosphorus. If you can't do simple math to figure out ratios then you shouldn't be giving advice about them.

I have nothing against Cal. Nat. or any Natura brand foods. Cal. Nat. formulas are bland and simple, most are carb heavy but they can be very useful and I have recommended them many times.

I'm not twisting your post around to home-made or raw diets, you posted the link which talks about home-prepared/raw diets. :rofl1: In the link you provided, Dr. Pitcairn never stated "that all animals do best on a 2-1 ratio" or "that is the ideal". Where are you getting this?

I sometimes wonder where you get your "voodoo science". :rofl1:

Uplander.....I actually think Doppler was confirming your thoughts using your link to respond to Bears post...although I'm not 100% this was the way I read it this morning.

Doppler...I agree, cal natural formulas can be grain heavy, thus the reason I recommend typically the puppy versions, which the lamb formula has 38% carb, quite a bit lower then the adult version.

Uplander.....I actually think Doppler was confirming your thoughts using your link to respond to Bears post...although I'm not 100% this was the way I read it this morning.

Doppler...I agree, cal natural formulas can be grain heavy, thus the reason I recommend typically the puppy versions, which the lamb formula has 38% carb, quite a bit lower then the adult version.

If you don't understand my post please don't comment on it or try to change it's meaning.

If you don't understand my post please don't comment on it or try to change it's meaning.

:vb_banghead: :nuke:

Fine....whatever.

You know, I try to be civil, apparently it's just not accepted....I give Doppler...have it your way. :rolleyes:

I wonder where you get your voodoo science half the time....I forgot, you're the pro and the only one who has the right answers :tapfoot:

Uplander - What is the exact ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the cal natural formula's?

Is it the 2 to 1?

Might be getting an aussie pup before too long, just would really like to know cause this is what I'll be feeding him/her too.

Doppler, sorry, but I understood my vet completely. Seems like you have your theories and my vet has his theories. All I know is that what he told me. Too much calcium fed to a pup will cause the dogs bones to grow too rapidly in comparison to the rest of the dog and will result in a tall, long legged labrador. I don't know for sure and you may be right about puppy food versus adult food in calcium levels, that I will have to check with the vet and do some research on my own. What I am trying to get across to dog owners is to simply start your dog out on a ALS food right from the beginning. Innova (Green Bag) is an ALS food, even though they do market a Puppy variety of Innova. Innova Adult can be feed as soon as a pup can eat kibble.

Wow, this is like a crash course in veterinary nutrition. For now Bacon is doing great on the Legacy. He's no longer underweight and now weighs 16.5lbs at 3 months.

Is there anything wrong with changing foods every other month or as often as it takes to get through a 25 lb bag of food? Someone suggested switching foods periodically as different foods will provide different nutrients.

As far as the joints and bone growth goes, can I use something like Missing Link to strengthen his joints?

Tiffwood....while changing foods once they're over 2yrs of age can be good, and actually something I do recommend rotating through, for different protein sources.

I do NOT recommend it for a tiny growing puppy; leave him on that food for at least 2yrs or for as long as he's continuing to do good on it. Pups need a well stable nutritonal base, you don't want a pup on the rollercoaster while they're growing.

You can add all the fresh home cooked veggies, occasional egg, canned fish, etc. from your own pantry, but as long as his base food is doing good for him, and is less then 1.9% calcium, leave him be.

Cute little guy by the way!

Missing link isn't harmful, but it does have ingredients that can cause some dogs to start itching; i.e. nutritional yeast, etc.

Best thing for your pups growing bones is to NOT over feed him, no hard, harsh running/jumping, no over-exerted exercising, try to make sure he's always sleeping on soft surfaces (easier said then done!) and keep him slightly thin, don't allow him to get the least bit overweight.

IMO, there is no reason what so ever to switch foods monthly and you may end up with a puppy with diarrhea all the time, stick to what is working for your puppy, adjust amounts to his specific needs and if you must change foods do it very slowly to avoid any digestive upset.

Missing link is not a bad thing but if your puppy is receiving the nutrients that he needs from his dog food i see no reason to give it to him, though im sure your vet can give you a better understanding about supplementing than i can

im glad to read he put some weight on and is doing well, good luck to you :D