Sabrina, our 12 year old Lab has been diagnosed with crystals in her urine along with a bacterial infection. We had been feeding her Nutro venison and rice mixed with Science Diet canned. The vet put her on Science diet SC for 2 weeks and recommended switching her to Science diet or Eukanuba dry. I had already switched her to Natura Innova due to recommendation on this and other sites but he doesn't like that brand either. He insists on Science diet or eukanuba but that seems to go counter to most opinions I have gotten from various places, including this site. Is it time to change vets?

Sabrina, our 12 year old Lab has been diagnosed with crystals in her urine along with a bacterial infection. We had been feeding her Nutro venison and rice mixed with Science Diet canned. The vet put her on Science diet SC for 2 weeks and recommended switching her to Science diet or Eukanuba dry. I had already switched her to Natura Innova due to recommendation on this and other sites but he doesn't like that brand either. He insists on Science diet or eukanuba but that seems to go counter to most opinions I have gotten from various places, including this site. Is it time to change vets?

Is this Vet a chain, like VCA?

No he isn't but he does sell Science diet.

I think you answered your own question. If you are listening to people's opinions here and other places, above your Vet's opinion, then you obviously do not trust your Vet so perhaps it would be good to go for a 2nd opinion and then make your mind up as to what to feed.

No he isn't but he does sell Science diet.

Your going to have a hard time finding a vet that doesn't sell Science Diet. I would follow your vet's advice.

Time to change vets. That Science Diet s/d is mostly water, corn starch and egg product. Maybe this is what your dog needs, I am not a vet, but hopefully this canned dog is not more than 75 cents a can because the ingredients really don't look like much.

Read this about Science Diet:

http://www.ourdogsonline.com/content/sciencedietscam.html

I would also think it is time to find a new vet.

Someone said that all vets sell Science Diet, this is not true...I had a few vets over the years and none of them sold any brand of dog food.

EDIT: I have yet to know of any dog that does not like Innova...this is a first

I'd be curious to find out WHY your vet likes SD over Innova. Can you ask him exactly why he likes SD so much?

Its not the dog who doesn't like Innova, its the vet and I do plan on asking him why.

Vets recommend SD cause that's all they know to recommend.

Every vet I've been to has recommended SD too, but also agrees and accepts that there are much better alternatives.

If I followed my vets advise regarding diet....my youngest pup wouldn't be here with me today.

Vets are fantastic for the overall medical aspect of the animal, but most of them never took a single course of actual nutritional courses except what was taught via companies related to SD.

For good true nutritional advise, contact Monica Segal she's a superb k-9 nutritionalist.

Vets recommend SD cause that's all they know to recommend.

Every vet I've been to has recommended SD too, but also agrees and accepts that there are much better alternatives.

If I followed my vets advise regarding diet....my youngest pup wouldn't be here with me today.

Vets are fantastic for the overall medical aspect of the animal, but most of them never took a single course of actual nutritional courses except what was taught via companies related to SD.

For good true nutritional advise, contact Monica Segal she's a superb k-9 nutritionalist.

Do you really think a vet would keep recommending a product if they got no results for the problem they were trying to correct? I know a person that uses SD for the very problem the OP is having with their dog. And it works. She says she has to hold her nose when buying it, but she does because it corrected the problem.

Vets are not as stupid as most here think.

Your going to have a hard time finding a vet that doesn't sell Science Diet. I would follow your vet's advice.

Ours doesn't. For prescription food they have the Royal Canin line, but have never tried to push it on us for anything so if they did, I would probably listen. They don't carry non-prescription food that I know of.

Do you really think a vet would keep recommending a product if they got no results for the problem they were trying to correct? I know a person that uses SD for the very problem the OP is having with their dog. And it works. She says she has to hold her nose when buying it, but she does because it corrected the problem.

Vets are not as stupid as most here think.

Here lies the reason there is no point to this board or people coming for answers; one mentions the fact that while SD is not the cure all for everything, and suddenly we're told that vets aren't as stupid as we think :roll2:

What-ever, first off, I never said vet's were stupid.

2ndly - might as well never have a say on this board and always just recommend what everyone wants to hear :rolleyes:

Like I said before, perhaps the owner should contact a k-9 nutritionalist as well as her vet....what harm lies in that??

However, perhaps MSDogs1976 knows that SD will assist for certainty.

What type of crystals were found?

here is info

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/category/bladder-stones/

UTIs

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/category/uti/

I would not feed the SD either.

did the vet do a culture to determine the type of bacteria or prescribe meds?

Most people ( Pet Owners) have yet to figure out that the Pet Food Industry is very corrupt....

Very often, what you get in the bag is not what it says it is... they run out of certain ingredients and add others...Purina has recently got around this by just saying their foods contain " Animal Fat" ..now they are not liable when they mix and match...

The Science Diet Prescription foods are very tightly controlled in the amount of nutrients they put into each production run...Vitamins and minerals...amino acid profile ...thus your Vet is knowing what is going into the dog and can judge results of the diet and the health condition... it is an exact food....

While Innova is a great food, a quality operation, because they use fresh food, each production run will be different in amount of nutrients....This is why you see the N/A is so very important for a Vet to have...but the max and the mins will not be as precise as a SD prescription food....

If your dog has a medical condition the SD prescription food will be like a medicine ...... I go for listening to the VET ....

However.....feeding high quality foods like Innova can also mean less Vet visits over the lifetime of your dog....Vs an O'l Roy type food.

The Science Diet Prescription foods are very tightly controlled in the amount of nutrients they put into each production run...Vitamins and minerals...amino acid profile ...thus your Vet is knowing what is going into the dog and can judge results of the diet and the health condition... it is an exact food....


If your dog has a medical condition the SD prescription food will be like a medicine ...... I go for listing to the VET ....

However.....feeding high quality foods like Innova can also mean less Vet visits over the lifetime of your dog....Vs an O'l Roy type food.

This is my take on food as well. I like Natura foods for my dogs' daily diet, but I do think there is a place for prescription diets made by folks like SD and Royal Canine. They have been researched and formulated for specific purposes.

This is why I mentioned consulting a k-9 nutritionalist; because there are other alternatives to SD just not in the form of dry food.

But, my opinion too, is I think eating a diet of 90% dry foods for life is what leads to a lot of these types of issues too, irregardless brand of food.

Natura is a good company, but there are other excellent alternatives to everyday diets; and definitely not a company I'd recommend in this case.

Ours doesn't. For prescription food they have the Royal Canin line, but have never tried to push it on us for anything so if they did, I would probably listen. They don't carry non-prescription food that I know of.

Mine has SD, but never recommended it to me. One time my Golden had a stomach problem and they prescribed Purina EN. The ingredients didn't look all that hot but my dog sure recovered from her problem while eating this. Wouldn't eat anything else during that period. Glad I listened to the vet.

Here lies the reason there is no point to this board or people coming for answers; one mentions the fact that while SD is not the cure all for everything, and suddenly we're told that vets aren't as stupid as we think :roll2:

What-ever, first off, I never said vet's were stupid.

2ndly - might as well never have a say on this board and always just recommend what everyone wants to hear :rolleyes:

Like I said before, perhaps the owner should contact a k-9 nutritionalist as well as her vet....what harm lies in that??

However, perhaps MSDogs1976 knows that SD will assist for certainty.

Give me a break. No I don't know it will assist for certainty. But people like you are always down playing what a vet recommends for problems like this simply because they don't have a degree in k9 nutrition and that is just plain silly. They have experience with these problems and recommends certain products because they have seen the results. Now if anyone doesn't want to listen to their vet, that is their prerogative. But I know if I had a pet that was having a problem, I would listen to a professional in the business over someone here on a message board. Even if the prescription is SD. That is what I'm saying. Now if a vet tries pushing SD when your dog is having no problems, that is a different story. Then I would find a new vet.

Just because a vet recommends SD for a health issue and you don't agree is not a reason to change vets IMO.

My vet recomm. SD for KF and I refused to feed it, did my own research and found a better food for KF. That along with proper supplements worked wonderful.

The same vet always prescribed antibiotic for UTIs and I also refused that and go the holistic route with positive results and my vet now agrees with my method.

I still have the same vet.

I have to agree with uplander that there is a place for prescription diets and if your vet recommended a temporary switch to a prescription diet... you should try it and see what sort of progress your dog makes.

If you are not seeing a change, contact your vet and ask for alternative treatments.

Food may not be the only answer to your problem, but if you don't ask... you'll never know.

Most people ( Pet Owners) have yet to figure out that the Pet Food Industry is very corrupt....

Very often, what you get in the bag is not what it says it is... they run out of certain ingredients and add others...Purina has recently got around this by just saying their foods contain " Animal Fat" ..now they are not liable when they mix and match...

The Science Diet Prescription foods are very tightly controlled in the amount of nutrients they put into each production run...Vitamins and minerals...amino acid profile ...thus your Vet is knowing what is going into the dog and can judge results of the diet and the health condition... it is an exact food....

While Innova is a great food, a quality operation, because they use fresh food, each production run will be different in amount of nutrients....This is why you see the N/A is so very important for a Vet to have...but the max and the mins will not be as precise as a SD prescription food....

If your dog has a medical condition the SD prescription food will be like a medicine ...... I go for listening to the VET ....

However.....feeding high quality foods like Innova can also mean less Vet visits over the lifetime of your dog....Vs an O'l Roy type food.

I understand the scientific value of "tightly controlled" nutrients, vitamins and minerals. It's just too bad the company didn't create the "prescription" formulas with ingredients that don't include pork fat, beef by-products, corn gluten meal and soybean mill run, etc. I'm sure it's possible if that were a goal.

Interesting thing that happens in my house with my cats...I have one cat with a tendency to produce calcium oxalate crystals in his urine who was put on a prescription diet, Hills SD Feline CD. Urine crystals cleared up completely and my vet then recommended Hills SD Feline KD for all my cats since they are all seniors or near senior status. I've tried to switch them quite a few times to what is often perceived to be better quality foods and they either refused to eat those foods or the cat with the tendency to get crystals gets them again. Do I like Hills Science Diet Prescription foods....not really....do they seem to work at keeping my cats healthy....absolutely....and I have a cat that is nearing 18 years old who is as fit as a 10 year old.

cats by nature will produce crystals if eating dry foods; everything one reads about a cat's diet is that it should be fresh and moist.

MSDogs1976 - you have a short span for vet tolerance; I like Patty would never leave my vet should he ever recommend SD just cause he wanted to.

Also again, I simply said for the OP to contact a k-9 nutritionalist, I did NOT recommend a certain diet plan.

Do you eat and do everything your doctor tells you? You can't tell me you have never thought to branch outside for what you thought might work better. And you're basically saying that everything Patty has done for her KF pup was puckie just cause she didn't feed SD to her dog when the vet recommended it.

I think you answered your own question. If you are listening to people's opinions here and other places, above your Vet's opinion, then you obviously do not trust your Vet so perhaps it would be good to go for a 2nd opinion and then make your mind up as to what to feed.

The statement above I agree with


Woofie, why are you turning this into about Patty

kathy

Woofie, why are you turning this into about Patty

kathy

I'm not turning it into about Patty, simply saying other people have gone against SD and have had excelent results. What's wrong with that?

I had a dog that had a horrible pancreatits attack, she nearly died, not once but twice. SD food vet had her on only caused her liver/digestion values to keep rising, costing us thousands more in vet care to correct what the food was supposedly *helping* with.

Soon as *I* had the willpower and guts to do my own research and branch away from what he recommended, she recovered, very quickly in fact and lived the remaining 6yrs of her life on homecooked recipes. Did I leave his practice?? No, I did not, cause he, in fact actually supplied me with the recipes knowing that the SD wasn't going to cut it.

cats by nature will produce crystals if eating dry foods; everything one reads about a cat's diet is that it should be fresh and moist.


Well obviously my cats didn't read what everyone else has read because they turn up their noses at "fresh & moist". They will only eat dry food and believe me I've tried every canned, fresh, raw, diet on the market. They have a very small window of what they will eat on a regular basis, but then again they are CATS, "cantankerous and troublesome souls". ;)


I also had a Flatcoated Retriever with such severe allergies that he could only tolerate Hill's SD ZD. Unfortunately he only lived to be 10 years old. He died of autoimmune hemolytic anemia.

Woofie, why are you turning this into about Patty

kathy

Not taking sides but I did not see it that way at all.

Not taking sides but I did not see it that way at all.

I did not know this board was about taking sides


In case anyone forgot the original poster posted that vet wanted dog on Science diet or eukanuba

there are two people who know the health and welfare of dog being spoken of the poster and vet.

If going the natural route worked - great, but it does not work in all cases. I know of a dog that has gone from eating raw moved to home cooked and is know eating one of the Hills canned formulas , doing very well by the way.

so one feeds what is going to work and is going to be best for the animal in your care.

By the way the original poster has not posted in a while

Heatherglen....yes...cats are very weird....i agree. My sister's cat is the same way, she'll only eat dry too, but we finally got her weaned onto Orijen dry. She loves it. That's one reason why I dislike cats, they tend to be too picky for my tastes.

RCexplorer - yes every dog is different, so why does everyone recommend the same thing for every dog?

One thing I've learned on this board, you're either to feed/recommend Purina, Diamond, exactly what the vet recommends or you're shauned upon. So from now on I'll make sure to just state what is wanted to be heard, no point in ever voicing a difference of opinion.

I personally would take a look at Eukanuba first, before SD.

I also had a Flatcoated Retriever with such severe allergies that he could only tolerate Hill's SD ZD. Unfortunately he only lived to be 10 years old. He died of autoimmune hemolytic anemia.

Sorry to hear that, Heather, my aunt had a golden in the same boat. She too fed SD, dog actually did quite well till they started doing steroid shots as a resort to inflammed constant ears; she died from a heart attack for being severly overweight due to years of using steroids.

I want it noted that I never said SD would not work, just that there are other alternatives in the case of *crystals* in the urine.

In the case of life or death conditions, such as severe allergies, or liver, etc I then would definitely try SD foods first.

MSDogs1976 - you have a short span for vet tolerance; I like Patty would never leave my vet should he ever recommend SD just cause he wanted to.


Do you eat and do everything your doctor tells you? You can't tell me you have never thought to branch outside for what you thought might work better. And you're basically saying that everything Patty has done for her KF pup was puckie just cause she didn't feed SD to her dog when the vet recommended it.

You are a hard one to follow. I think I will close it down for the night before you give me a headache. :smash:

I think I will close it down for the night before you give me a headache. :smash:

You're saying this cause you know you don't follow your *own* doctors advise to a tee; perhaps with your vet you do.

All I'm saying is there is nothing wrong with doing research and branching outside the norm...that's all. I'm sure your grandparents did things differently with their children medical wise, then your parents did with you, and I'm even sure your Grandma had something to say about it too....it's normal too.

Whatever feelings you have towrds this, I apologize; have a good night. I'm out of this too as it doesn't seem to ever matter what others think, it's always a one-sided answer on this board.

To the OP - my best wishes to you and yours.

Heatherglen....yes...cats are very weird....i agree. My sister's cat is the same way, she'll only eat dry too, but we finally got her weaned onto Orijen dry. She loves it. That's one reason why I dislike cats, they tend to be too picky for my tastes.

RCexplorer - yes every dog is different, so why does everyone recommend the same thing for every dog?

One thing I've learned on this board, you're either to feed/recommend Purina, Diamond, exactly what the vet recommends or you're shauned upon. So from now on I'll make sure to just state what is wanted to be heard, no point in ever voicing a difference of opinion.

I personally would take a look at Eukanuba first, before SD.

Woofie - I usually agree with what you have to say, but your statement about Purina, Diamond etc. . . being pushed as the food to feed I have to disagree with. Seems like Natura is pushed around here a lot - to the point where I just have gotten sick of hearing about it. Don't get me wrong I've fed Natura for years, but now Charlie is eating Purina (yes, that's right - a food I swore I wouldn't touch in a million years) and he's doing great on it.

Nancy

Sorry for butting in OP.

Nancy - you're correct....I should have mentioned Natura as well.

Thing is there are tons of other alternatives in ways of feeding, not just brands of foods. I mentioned before, I don't believe in dry food period as the only source, or primary source of nutrients. Natura IS a good company, but there are much better options this day and age.

Honestly though, there are only 3-4 people that push Natura, the rest of the board seems to push Purina/Diamond/etc....which is fine too; but it's the way the foods are pushed that people get irritated by, not the foods themselves.

Nancy - you're correct....I should have mentioned Natura as well.

Thing is there are tons of other alternatives in ways of feeding, not just brands of foods. I mentioned before, I don't believe in dry food period as the only source, or primary source of nutrients. Natura IS a good company, but there are much better options this day and age.

Honestly though, there are only 3-4 people that push Natura, the rest of the board seems to push Purina/Diamond/etc....which is fine too; but it's the way the foods are pushed that people get irritated by, not the foods themselves.

That, I agree with Woofie. Some do push foods they believe in to the point of irritating others. You hit the nail on the head with that statement. The bottom line is (and I already know you feel this way too) you feed what works whether it be Natura, Purina, Diamond or some other alternate way of feeding. :D

Have a good night Woofie.

Nancy

You too Nancy! Have a good night....we're getting snow!......AGAIN!

I don't see any foods "pushed" here except those made by Natura and Champion Foods. The majority of people who post seem to be those that feed grain free or high end foods (check the polls). IMO, members that are feeding foods with grains seldom post for fear of being flamed or, it could be that those that feed moderate foods don't visit here because they aren't having any problems.

The OP is second guessing his vet based on the beliefs of (strong willed) people on a forum without any formal (clinical) nutritional education. Does this vet sell both SD and Eukanuba? If you think your vet is wrong, why not seek another professional opinion instead of jeopardizing the health of your best friend.

it could be that those that feed moderate foods don't visit here because they aren't having any problems.



I wasn't having any problems when I came here; neither are 90% of the daily members, many are just here out of curiosity and repitition.

I simply joined the board out of boredism one day; had nothing to do with having a food related problem.

I generally spend most my time on Isuzu member boards, and was a member of a k-9 nutritional board mainly for learning of different ways to feed aside from just what comes in a bag for convienence. I found this board while looking for NSDTR boards; seemed very active and fun, thus the only reason I joined.

Truthfully Doppler, I'm not a fan of any dog food company, aside from honest kitchen, so I could care less what one decides to feed - to me, dry food is all the same....dry with most nutrients leached out during processing. Doesn't matter in my mind if it's grain-free or not.

My posting on this thread has nor had anything to do with WHAT brand to feed, but rather a whole different approach to feeding.

Many of the members that posted today are members that feed a variety, but 90% of the comebacks, whether or not I've even *mentioned* a food are from those that feed Purina....

The OP is second guessing his vet based on the beliefs of (strong willed) people on a forum without any formal (clinical) nutritional education..

Agreed 100%....which is why I recommended contacting a k-9 nutritionalist.

Also, in truth, why none of us should ever have a say as to which foods to ever push, recommend, discuss, etc....nor which ingredients, i.e. corn, etc are safe for our pets to be eating. Researching and posting links to other sources of findings/research, etc doesn't put the clinical nutrition education at our feet....thus what gives us the right to tell someone else that feeding, or not feeding corn is ok??....right...

You're telling us, in a round about way to not be giving out *beliefs* cause we have no education in k-9 nutrition....so what gives you the right to say corn's ok, irregardless of the links you've attached, YOU have no clinical nutritional courses/degree to dictate what's ok and what's not any more then others do.

You're saying this cause you know you don't follow your *own* doctors advise to a tee; perhaps with your vet you do.



it's always a one-sided answer on this board.



As I said previously, I recommend following your vet's advise when your dog has a particular problem like the OP's dog. SD or whatever brand he recommends is medicine for the problem. But I wouldn't have much respect for a vet that tried to sell me SD or any other brand of dog food if my dog was healthy and having no problem. A general guideline or suggestion, fine. My vet has never tried to do this but apparently some do by some of the comments I have seen here.

As far as my doc goes, he has only made general comments on what is a healthy diet to follow. He has not tried to sell me any food products for profit. Comparing the topic of this thread to this is like comparing apples to oranges.

But I will agree with you on your last comment. At least with some.;)

Comparing the topic of this thread to this is like comparing apples to oranges.


Why? Why do you think that way?

You're missing my whole point.....but it doesn't matter anymore.

http://usera.ImageCave.com/jmitch006/no-corn330.jpg

I wasn't having any problems when I came here; neither are 90% of the daily members, many are just here out of curiosity and repitition.

I simply joined the board out of boredism one day; had nothing to do with having a food related problem.

I generally spend most my time on Isuzu member boards, and was a member of a k-9 nutritional board mainly for learning of different ways to feed aside from just what comes in a bag for convienence. I found this board while looking for NSDTR boards; seemed very active and fun, thus the only reason I joined.

Truthfully Doppler, I'm not a fan of any dog food company, aside from honest kitchen, so I could care less what one decides to feed - to me, dry food is all the same....dry with most nutrients leached out during processing. Doesn't matter in my mind if it's grain-free or not.

My posting on this thread has nor had anything to do with WHAT brand to feed, but rather a whole different approach to feeding.

Many of the members that posted today are members that feed a variety, but 90% of the comebacks, whether or not I've even *mentioned* a food are from those that feed Purina....

We have a section on this forum called Natural Diets that discusses alternative ways of feeding and you might be happier hanging out there. I don't know where you're getting your statistics that "90% of the comebacks" are from those that feed Purina. Can you name 10 people on this forum that feed Purina?

Agreed 100%....which is why I recommended contacting a k-9 nutritionalist.

Also, in truth, why none of us should ever have a say as to which foods to ever push, recommend, discuss, etc....nor which ingredients, i.e. corn, etc are safe for our pets to be eating. Researching and posting links to other sources of findings/research, etc doesn't put the clinical nutrition education at our feet....thus what gives us the right to tell someone else that feeding, or not feeding corn is ok??....right...

You're telling us, in a round about way to not be giving out *beliefs* cause we have no education in k-9 nutrition....so what gives you the right to say corn's ok, irregardless of the links you've attached, YOU have no clinical nutritional courses/degree to dictate what's ok and what's not any more then others do.

There's nothing wrong with expressing one's opinion but backing up one's belief with frightening statements that just aren't true doesn't help someone make an informed decision. Luckyluna (for one) does a good job of promoting her beliefs without making false statements and there are many others that respond with suggestions that are tailored to what a particular dog needs while keeping their beliefs aside.

Doppler - nothing like contradicting yourself...first you say no one has a right TO be advising anyone, then you say it IS ok....

Whatever. It's not worth it.

Seems like Natura is pushed around here a lot - to the point where I just have gotten sick of hearing about it. Don't get me wrong I've fed Natura for years,

I could not agree more...I love Natura foods and think they are fantastic, but for crying out loud...I am sick of hearing about it!!! The feeling on this board is that if you don't feed it, then you are a moron...at least that is the attitude that comes across from a handful of people....Enough already...we get it!

Woofie, I received notification that you responded to this thread with the following message (5 minutes before you edited it out):
Doppler-likewise, can you name 10 people who don't feed Purina?


Here is a list of 35 people who don't feed Purina from just one recent thread (I'm sorry if I left anyone out):

Bayril, nikkiluvsu15, Charlene-renee, ZoeysMommy, lolasmommy, Rex Oliver, Random Gemini, bearsowner, klcabe, Major, Squeaksmom, mckjen, LuckyLuna, bsilvia, Mitsy's Mom, Benelli my lab, MSDOGS1976, papismom, bellabri287, LazyLab, bearbuddymarie, rbag2blacklabs, nmaho, bigmag74, Scottishlabs, ebaby, CaptGritz, tracyfer, lolabell, zoezoe, Lab-adore, Mokahouse, ThorsMom, FG167, karebear.

So far, two people in this particular thread have stated that they feed Purina or about 5%, quite a difference from your 90%. Check the polls. Where did you get your 90% from? We should also be careful about making up statistics that can sway the opinions of others falsely.

Here is your post after editing:
Doppler - nothing like contradicting yourself...first you say no one has a right TO be advising anyone, then you say it IS ok....

Whatever. It's not worth it.
I never said "no one has a right to be advising anyone" where did you get that from? As I have said before, I have a problem with how you interpret my posts and I would prefer that you either quote me or ask for clarification.

Purina, owned by Nestle

Iams/Eukanuba, owned by Procter and Gamble

Their number one concern and priority is profit and keeping their shareholders happy.

They could give a rat's a$$ about your dog...

Opinion? Yes, mine

To make a profit you have to keep your costs down, to keep your costs down, you will use the cheapest ingredients that are out there to use to manufacturer anything and everything you make.

Need I say more??

Purina, owned by Nestle

Iams/Eukanuba, owned by Procter and Gamble

Their number one concern and priority is profit and keeping their shareholders happy.

They could give a rat's a$$ about your dog...

Opinion? Yes, mine

To make a profit you have to keep your costs down, to keep your costs down, you will use the cheapest ingredients that are out there to use to manufacturer anything and everything you make.

Need I say more??

I doubt ANY dog food company is doing things pro-bono. They are all interested in making a profit. You dont have to keep costs down by using cheap ingredients, you can do it by selling large quantities. Which is why big companies keep making it bigger, people like their product. Pepsi, I like it, I buy it, Store brand cola, I dont like it, I dont buy it. I dont worry when I drink pepsi that they are trying to kill me with cheap ingredients so they can make a buck. I also dont think the store brand version is good for me because they dont sell as much.

Pro-plan feeder and proud. Works for my dog, might not work for yours.

Here is your post after editing:

I never said "no one has a right to be advising anyone" where did you get that from? As I have said before, I have a problem with how you interpret my posts and I would prefer that you either quote me or ask for clarification.

Make sure you're prepared to do the same for others; perhaps Doppler you have all the time in the world....I however work a fulltime job and then some, don't have time to be exact.....not like you are exact either however.

FWIW - in my 90% calculation, I meant to say Purina/Diamond products, not just Purina...you forget Doppler, I'm typing with 2 ripped off fingers, and deeply in pain, I don't have all your carefree time for examing everly little detail.

Like I said....not worth it. Happy arguing with yourself.

Wanted to add, Doppler, it's funny how you always come into the middle of a thread and love to be argumentative; yet you couldn't provide answers to Patty's questions in another thread about yourself and whether or not you've ever raised any puppies; etc. You love to turn a thread around and make it all about what you feel should be right.

This thread/discussion had nothing to do with *you*, yet you come in and tear apart my responses; why can't you just respond to the OP in a topic and stop pulling apart others responses.....what gives YOU that right?? Are you a vet? Are you a nutritionalist? Are you the moderator?

No...you're not. So butt out of my responses, I didn't ask for your opinons on scrutinizing every post!

Wanted to add, Doppler, it's funny how you always come into the middle of a thread and love to be argumentative; yet you couldn't provide answers to Patty's questions in another thread about yourself and whether or not you've ever raised any puppies; etc. You love to turn a thread around and make it all about what you feel should be right.

This thread/discussion had nothing to do with *you*, yet you come in and tear apart my responses; why can't you just respond to the OP in a topic and stop pulling apart others responses.....what gives YOU that right?? Are you a vet? Are you a nutritionalist? Are you the moderator?

No...you're not. So butt out of my responses, I didn't ask for your opinons on scrutinizing every post!

Go back and look at my first post in this thread. I posted my opinion on a discussion that was going on in the thread, I didn't quote anyone, I only wanted to post my opinion. It was your choice to quote me and dissect what I said instead of reading my post and moving on. After my first post in this thread I only responded to comments that you made in response to that post. I think it is you that likes to be argumentative.

Wanted to add, Doppler, it's funny how you always come into the middle of a thread and love to be argumentative; yet you couldn't provide answers to Patty's questions in another thread about yourself and whether or not you've ever raised any puppies; etc. You love to turn a thread around and make it all about what you feel should be right.

This thread/discussion had nothing to do with *you*, yet you come in and tear apart my responses; why can't you just respond to the OP in a topic and stop pulling apart others responses.....what gives YOU that right?? Are you a vet? Are you a nutritionalist? Are you the moderator?

No...you're not. So butt out of my responses, I didn't ask for your opinons on scrutinizing every post!

Quoting Doppler (forgive me all this time on the board and I still don't know how to properly quote more than one person in a post :-) )

"Go back and look at my first post in this thread. I posted my opinion on a discussion that was going on in the thread, I didn't quote anyone, I only wanted to post my opinion. It was your choice to quote me and dissect what I said instead of reading my post and moving on. After my first post in this thread I only responded to comments that you made in response to that post. I think it is you that likes to be argumentative"

I beg to differ with you Doppler - you argue with most people on this board.

And I will again ask you to answer my questions. If you are going to have so many opinions and argue with so many than tell us more about you if you expect to get any respect from the members of this board and expect members to "respect" your opinions/experience.

[/QUOTE]You have also put your 2 cents in on many of the threads on the breeder section in the past and I have always wondered about you. Do you breed? No one on this board has any way of knowing because you reveal very little about yourself.

Yet you come on threads like this and question people who have years of knowledge.

How long have you been researching canine nutrition and dog food? How long have you been raising Labs or any breed of dog for that matter?

The other question I have is are you male or female?

Will you ever respond to these questions or just continue to ignor them yet continue to be rude to other board members?

Quoting Doppler (forgive me all this time on the board and I still don't know how to properly quote more than one person in a post :-) )

"Go back and look at my first post in this thread. I posted my opinion on a discussion that was going on in the thread, I didn't quote anyone, I only wanted to post my opinion. It was your choice to quote me and dissect what I said instead of reading my post and moving on. After my first post in this thread I only responded to comments that you made in response to that post. I think it is you that likes to be argumentative"

I beg to differ with you Doppler - you argue with most people on this board.

And I will again ask you to answer my questions. If you are going to have so many opinions and argue with so many than tell us more about you if you expect to get any respect from the members of this board and expect members to "respect" your opinions/experience.

You have also put your 2 cents in on many of the threads on the breeder section in the past and I have always wondered about you. Do you breed? No one on this board has any way of knowing because you reveal very little about yourself.

Yet you come on threads like this and question people who have years of knowledge.

How long have you been researching canine nutrition and dog food? How long have you been raising Labs or any breed of dog for that matter?

The other question I have is are you male or female?

Will you ever respond to these questions or just continue to ignor them yet continue to be rude to other board members?

Your post is inappropriate and rude. You're entitled to your opinions as I am mine. I don't know what your obsession is with me but you should let it go.

No Patty, I will not answer your questions. A little mystery is intriguing isn't it?

Quoting Rodney King:

"why can't we all just get along"

Be careful taking brand advice from the vet. Most times, the vet gets certain brands (Science Diet, Iams, Eukenuba) at little to no cost. Nutro has always been a great brand and so is purina.

Patty - I wouldn't fret over it.

A person who won't at least give the board the respect of whether to refer to the person as male or female doesn't deserve respect from the board, IMHO.

I understand keeping each persons identity to a minimum, but if one is so unrespectful of him or herself to not even say male or female, why should anyone ever reading a simple post of that person believe anything they ever have to say.

Why should we extend the respect, if that person can't give it to us?

I for one would (have) liked to know where the knowledge that person has is coming from, however cause that person can't answer a simple question, I'm led to believe the person is non-existant and doesn't earn my time to ever acknowledge another response.

It doesn't matter what sex Doppler is....it is the motivation....

As a pet owner....I understand all forum information is opinion....and everyone is entitled to theirs...right or wrong....

The only place Purina, Nutro, Iams , Pedigree, and Science Diet get questioned is Internet Forums....

Holistic Vets think Science Diet is a reason for poor pet health...Conventional Vets think the opposite...

If you are a person who thinks foods can help prevent illness you stay away from highly processed foods...does your dog need that philosophy ? That is where we get into the debates...and if it works..does it matter....

A new poster just mentioned Nutro as being a great food ....I bet that their experience has been good....but if you follow the industry it is a food that has had it's share of problems...

People see yeasty ears, eye boogers, and loose stool as reasons to change diets....or a poor coat or itching....The thing we all can't see is what is happening to the internal organs...Does anyone not believe all the Cancer in dogs is not about the food chain ? You can feed the best food in the market place....but if the chickens they use have been eating feeds that are tainted the chicken meat and bone is going to have heavy metals...and is just as bad for your dog as is feeding foods with fish meal....

The reason Cal Nat Lamb works for so many dogs is not about anything else except it is a clean food....Free range Lamb...eating grass in a natural environment...but is 21 % protein too low ? another debate...if you work your dog....

Feeding your dog will be the hardest decision as an owner you make...because of all the choices.... and so few will work for you and your dog...why that is has to be because of sourcing and reaction to the processing....Dogs by nature can eat just about anything and survive...they have a great Liver...that converts many things eaten into what they need...

Kibble also gives many manufactures the place to hide the fact every production run is different ....Who is going to check ? As long as the color and shape of the kibble is the same..people don't get each bag tested...only if a problem arises does anyone question what was in the bag....

Should AAFCO/ FDA regulations be better....Yes... would the public be willing to pay for more inspections ... They hate taxes...

Getting back to the OP...you either trust your Vet and work with him....or seek out a Holistic Vet....I don't think Science Diet fed for a short period of time to your dog is an issue....long term maybe....

I would look at an Innova senior diet if the issue persists.... Innova works hard to get the PH of their foods correct...and helps seniors stay healthy....

Your post is inappropriate and rude. You're entitled to your opinions as I am mine. I don't know what your obsession is with me but you should let it go.

No Patty, I will not answer your questions. A little mystery is intriguing isn't it?


I have no obsesssion with you (don't flatter yourself) I am just tired of your being rude to people on the board, demanding answers to your questions yet not giving the same in return. Thats not the way people act on this board so I suggest you change your attitude so this can remain a happy place.

And, I agree with Woofie's last post.

I have no obsesssion with you (don't flatter yourself) I am just tired of your being rude to people on the board, demanding answers to your questions yet not giving the same in return. Thats not the way people act on this board so I suggest you change your attitude so this can remain a happy place.

And, I agree with Woofie's last post.

I suggest you take your complaints to Woody. I don't demand answers, I asked for clarification on something that was previously posted. You have rudely demanded answers from me to personal questions that is none of your business. If you intend to give advice on how people should act then you yourself should be setting an example. You made your beef public and that's not how this should have been handled. MYOB already.

It doesn't matter what sex Doppler is....it is the motivation....

As a pet owner....I understand all forum information is opinion....and everyone is entitled to theirs...right or wrong....

The only place Purina, Nutro, Iams , Pedigree, and Science Diet get questioned is Internet Forums....

Holistic Vets think Science Diet is a reason for poor pet health...Conventional Vets think the opposite...

If you are a person who thinks foods can help prevent illness you stay away from highly processed foods...does your dog need that philosophy ? That is where we get into the debates...and if it works..does it matter....

A new poster just mentioned Nutro as being a great food ....I bet that their experience has been good....but if you follow the industry it is a food that has had it's share of problems...

People see yeasty ears, eye boogers, and loose stool as reasons to change diets....or a poor coat or itching....The thing we all can't see is what is happening to the internal organs...Does anyone not believe all the Cancer in dogs is not about the food chain ? You can feed the best food in the market place....but if the chickens they use have been eating feeds that are tainted the chicken meat and bone is going to have heavy metals...and is just as bad for your dog as is feeding foods with fish meal....

The reason Cal Nat Lamb works for so many dogs is not about anything else except it is a clean food....Free range Lamb...eating grass in a natural environment...but is 21 % protein too low ? another debate...if you work your dog....

Feeding your dog will be the hardest decision as an owner you make...because of all the choices.... and so few will work for you and your dog...why that is has to be because of sourcing and reaction to the processing....Dogs by nature can eat just about anything and survive...they have a great Liver...that converts many things eaten into what they need...

Kibble also gives many manufactures the place to hide the fact every production run is different ....Who is going to check ? As long as the color and shape of the kibble is the same..people don't get each bag tested...only if a problem arises does anyone question what was in the bag....

Should AAFCO/ FDA regulations be better....Yes... would the public be willing to pay for more inspections ... They hate taxes...

Getting back to the OP...you either trust your Vet and work with him....or seek out a Holistic Vet....I don't think Science Diet fed for a short period of time to your dog is an issue....long term maybe....

I would look at an Innova senior diet if the issue persists.... Innova works hard to get the PH of their foods correct...and helps seniors stay healthy....

Pete- great post, well thought out, non accusatory and I agree with the points you made.

I suggest you take your complaints to Woody. I don't demand answers, I asked for clarification on something that was previously posted. You have rudely demanded answers from me to personal questions that is none of your business. If you intend to give advice on how people should act then you yourself should be setting an example. You made your beef public and that's not how this should have been handled. MYOB already.

You asked me a question and I answered it from over 14 years of research and experience. Asking me the same question over and over and telling me I did not answer is demanding IMO.

I have asked my questions of you 3 times. How does it feel? If you can dish it out be prepared to take it.

And I don't think asking if someone is a breeder, what type of dogs they have raised and for how many years and how long they have been researching canine nutrition and dog food are personal questions.

I see no reason why someone would not answer such questions.

As for your gender it was out of curiosity as stated in my original post.

And trust me I have no problem taking it to Woody as I have done in the past with others that got out of line and rude to the members. Woody is quite tollerant but eventually says "thats it"!

It doesn't matter what sex Doppler is....it is the motivation....

As a pet owner....I understand all forum information is opinion....and everyone is entitled to theirs...right or wrong....

The only place Purina, Nutro, Iams , Pedigree, and Science Diet get questioned is Internet Forums....

Holistic Vets think Science Diet is a reason for poor pet health...Conventional Vets think the opposite...

If you are a person who thinks foods can help prevent illness you stay away from highly processed foods...does your dog need that philosophy ? That is where we get into the debates...and if it works..does it matter....

A new poster just mentioned Nutro as being a great food ....I bet that their experience has been good....but if you follow the industry it is a food that has had it's share of problems...

People see yeasty ears, eye boogers, and loose stool as reasons to change diets....or a poor coat or itching....The thing we all can't see is what is happening to the internal organs...Does anyone not believe all the Cancer in dogs is not about the food chain ? You can feed the best food in the market place....but if the chickens they use have been eating feeds that are tainted the chicken meat and bone is going to have heavy metals...and is just as bad for your dog as is feeding foods with fish meal....

The reason Cal Nat Lamb works for so many dogs is not about anything else except it is a clean food....Free range Lamb...eating grass in a natural environment...but is 21 % protein too low ? another debate...if you work your dog....

Feeding your dog will be the hardest decision as an owner you make...because of all the choices.... and so few will work for you and your dog...why that is has to be because of sourcing and reaction to the processing....Dogs by nature can eat just about anything and survive...they have a great Liver...that converts many things eaten into what they need...

Kibble also gives many manufactures the place to hide the fact every production run is different ....Who is going to check ? As long as the color and shape of the kibble is the same..people don't get each bag tested...only if a problem arises does anyone question what was in the bag....

Should AAFCO/ FDA regulations be better....Yes... would the public be willing to pay for more inspections ... They hate taxes...

Getting back to the OP...you either trust your Vet and work with him....or seek out a Holistic Vet....I don't think Science Diet fed for a short period of time to your dog is an issue....long term maybe....

I would look at an Innova senior diet if the issue persists.... Innova works hard to get the PH of their foods correct...and helps seniors stay healthy....

Good Post

kathy

Wanted to add the original poster has not posted since the first day I hope everything is ok with posters dog Sabrina

kathy

Have you ever noticed that is what happens in these threads? The OP stops posting. Are we scaring them off?

Uplander, great post!!!!

Nancy

No NancyO, I have not been scared off, just busy. Anyway, I sure didn't expect to cause such a brouhaha but I now realize our pets well being is foremost in all our minds. To what end we achieve that is a personal decision. In Sabrina's case (yes, she is fine) the vet wanted her to go on canned Science Diet C/D to get the urine pH down and help dissolve crystals. We did have Sabrina on the canned C/D but after 3 days she stopped eating it. In general she has lost some interest in food which is probably attributable to the antibiotics she is on which is basically Cipro for dogs. I took a urine sample yesterday and the pH is down to 6.5 and I could not see any crystals in the urine under a microscope. She has stopped the non-productive urination attempts and still has 5 more days of antibiotics to go. We will then have another complete urinalysis done.

Now to the vet problem. First off I am a molecular biologist and my wife has a doctorate in experimental pathology. We have a clinic in Hawaii where we treat HIV+ patients and do clinical research on the longterm effects of the drugs prescribed so we are no strangers to medicine etc. When someone tells me they don't like something but are then unable to justify why I start having second thoughts about their advice. Unfortunately, in todays society, when you are seeking professional advice you almost always need to be as up on the subject area as the pro. Whether it is having your car repaired, a plumbing job or seeing your physician about a problem you have better be "up to speed". My vet convinced me to stop feeding Nutro since he said he sees quite a few animals with crystals in their urine who are being fed Nutro products. To that end I started researching dog foods and decided on Natura since it was highly regarded and I had a source for it. I am trying Innova and will monitor droppings and our dogs desire to eat it. Sabrina, even though she is a chocolate lab, is a very picky eater. On the other hand Ginger, our 4 year old yellow lab, will eat just about anything. We have decided to stick with this vet until Sabrina's treatment has run its course and she gets a clean bill of health. I have yet to ask the vet why he doesn't like Innova but when I do I will let you know what his answer is.

To Nikki, thanks for the PM but since I only have 6 posts I was unable to reply to you via PM.

I am so happy to hear Sabrina seems to be doing well. That's interesting what your vet said about Nutro. I don't feed that food, but my last yellow lab ate it for a time. How long was Sabrina on that food just out of curiosity.

My yellow lab Cooper was on Innova/CN chicken and rice his entire life. Never had a crystal problem. I think you are making an excellent choice.

Oh, and I'm glad we didn't scare you off LOL. Food topics definitely get heated around here.

Nancy

I would guess she was on Nutro for about 2 years. Over the years she has been on Eukanuba, Science Diet and Nutro. All of them a kibble. Sabrina has been plauged with skin rashes and ear problems her whole life. Now that she is on a wheat/corn/filler-free dry food I hope some of those problems are mitigated. On the other hand, Ginger eats anything without any problems at all and has never had an ear or skin problem.

Also, Innova is a really rich food. Go slow with the transition. If you do find it's not working you could also try California Natural Lamb and Rice for Sabrina. Made by the same company as Innova, but one meat source, one carbohydrate. A lot of dogs here are on it and they have done well. It's a good food for an allergy dog. Just a thought if the Innova doesn't work out. With my yellow that ate Innova I had to mix in the CN chicken and rice to keep his stools firm.

Nancy

No problems so far, stools are dark and firm and she has started eating normally again. WooHoo!

That's great - I'm glad to hear it.

Nancy