California Natural for puppy?

[uplander]

Originally Posted by Doppler

Vitamin C increases calcium absorption.

Dogs make their own Vit. C and don't need to be supplemented.

It also encourages collagen formation.... and as DR. Belfield believes some dogs don't produce enough and joint issues may result....It's been selling strong since 1976

http://www.belfield.com/megac1000.php

[Doppler]

Originally Posted by uplander

It also encourages collagen formation.... and as DR. Belfield believes some dogs don't produce enough and joint issues may result....It's been selling strong since 1976

http://www.belfield.com/megac1000.php

Save your money and don't take unnecessary risks with a puppy.

In puppies fed diets devoid of vitamin C for 147 to 154 days, growth was not affected and skeletal lesions were not noted.

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

If you supplement with Vit. C the dog will produce less of his own. According to a fairly recent study, if you give high doses of Vit. C long term then you could be looking at osteoarthritis problems. There is no minimum daily requirement for dogs since they make their own. If you supplement with Vit. C the dog will produce less but you don't know how much Vit. C will cause an excessively high dose.

Vitamin C and Osteoarthritis

Osteoarthritis is characterized by a gradual deterioration of the joints, the reason it is also referred to as the wear-and-tear type of arthritis. Study results, which appear in the June 2004 issue of Arthritis & Rheumatism, have shown that the long-term use of vitamin C may worsen the severity of osteoarthritis of the knee.

Researchers analyzed the effect of eight months of low, medium, and high doses of vitamin C in guinea pigs. Guinea pigs, like humans, are not able to synthesize vitamin C for themselves.

The high dose group developed the most severe osteoarthritis of the knee and worst cartilage damage. The researchers in this study concluded that dietary intake of vitamin C should not be supplemented above the current recommended dietary allowance:

http://arthritis.about.com/od/preven...a/vitaminc.htm

[Woofie]

Don't know where I stand on this; but I always thought I'd read that dogs made their own too, and if given too much can cause issues.

I've only ever given Vit C when a dog we had was sick; I've never given Vit c otherwise....but again, don't know where I truly stand on this.

I'll let you guys hash it through...I'll read the studies you post...hehehehehe.....

[NancyO]

Charlie takes a glucosamine, chrondroitin, MSM and vitamin c tablet twice a day. Each tablet contains 50 mg vitamin C so for the day he gets 100 mg. Is that a problem?

Nancy

[Woofie]

http://arthritis.about.com/od/preven...a/vitaminc.htm

This particular link is in reference to humans, not canines, from what I can tell though....just pointing it out, not trying to start debates.

[NancyO]

Oh boy!!! Should I switch to Cosequin DS? Has no vitamin C, but as I recall there was one study that said chroindroitin can cause mammory cancer. Ugh - I don't know what to give.

Nancy

But wait, some Natura foods add vitamin C and lots of it I think.

[Woofie]

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

This link actually does go on to state that most of the time feeding a large breed puppy, which they do include a lab as a large breed, an adult food can sometimes actually cause an excessive intake of calcium versus feeding a puppy food that may have the same amount or slightly more calcium but can be fed at less of an intake ratio cause it's higher in calories.

Staying out of the Vit c debate...don't know one way or the other for sure...

The above link is actually a very good read.

Uplander - I'm curious do you have other links and studies regarding benefit of Vit c other then Dr. Belfield?

I'd really like to read more, all I can see to find many of times though, is someone's theory or opinion, not actual studies

[Woofie]

Originally Posted by NancyO

Oh boy!!! Should I switch to Cosequin DS? Has no vitamin C, but as I recall there was one study that said chroindroitin can cause mammory cancer. Ugh - I don't know what to give.

Nancy

But wait, some Natura foods add vitamin C and lots of it I think.

The lamb varieties of Natura do not contain vit C.

Thing is, there's a link, study, research article posted every single day for humans and canine's that's enough to drive anyone crazy....seriously. I think the supplement you're currently using, if it's working for Charlie, leave it be.

I don't know of the study of the chrondrotin (sp??) causing mammary cancer....you have a link?

Now the links Uplander posted in another thread about store bought chicken containing high amounts of Arsenic, I did further researching on that article/study and found that Tyson's chicken is one of the cleanest chickens with little to no traces of arsenic....I went through our entire deep chest freezer just to make sure that all of our chickens were from Tyson....which they are.

But that's another thread/concern, just saying it's enough to make someone's head spin; cause now one also has to wonder *who's* chicken are all these dog food manufactorers using?? That concern for me even extends to Natura's chicken/evo varieties, who are they using??

[uplander]

Originally Posted by Woofie

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

This link actually does go on to state that most of the time feeding a large breed puppy, which they do include a lab as a large breed, an adult food can sometimes actually cause an excessive intake of calcium versus feeding a puppy food that may have the same amount or slightly more calcium but can be fed at less of an intake ratio cause it's higher in calories.

Staying out of the Vit c debate...don't know one way or the other for sure...

The above link is actually a very good read.

Uplander - I'm curious do you have other links and studies regarding benefit of Vit c other then Dr. Belfield?

I'd really like to read more, all I can see to find many of times though, is someone's theory or opinion, not actual studies

Dr. Belfield and Natura hold a close relationship...Their research center named in honor of him....He is a pioneer in the field of using Vitamins as a way to prevent and cure illness.
My dogs breeder was the one to inform me of Belfield's work as I was instructed to supplement Satch's puppyhood with his product....Laura and her husband work in the Medical profession...so they have the background to understand how biology works...
http://www.minefalls.com/Links.html (bottom of page)
All other work on Vit C can be Googled and you will find tons of evidence that Vit C is needed for collagen production....Then do some research on Collagen and you find how important it is for the joints...

Vit C has to be used in a way you give amounts until loose bowel happens...then you back off until the bowel firms again.

Cal NAt Lamb does not have Vit C ....I Believe that the story I was told to be true in that This is the only commercial diet DR Belfield would recommend to patients at his practice because he was a meat inspector...and saw how un-clean the meats were used in Pet Food. And I would have no doubt he felt it better if his Vit C product would be better absorbed than what could be used in making the food.

And the only way I would say makes it safe to use Cal Nat Lamb for a puppy is if you use Mega C Plus...along with it.

You will notice all other Natura Diets has the highest amounts of Vit C and Vit E ....natural antioxidants..

Most people will tell you Vit therapy is Voodoo medicine .....I disagree. As long as Vitamins are water soluble any excess gets excreted.... The Fat soluble Vitamins are the ones to be careful of as they are stored . (A D E K )

[Woofie]

Originally Posted by uplander

Vit C has to be used in a way you give amounts until loose bowel happens...then you back off until the bowel firms again.

I've tried all of this over and over again.....including the Belfield's brand.

I"m not against vitamin's/supplementing, my dogs do get a healthy powered *human* supplement that's a lot more purer then most k-9 supplements, and they get extra Vit E, etc.

I can damn near guarantee you their supplement has Vit c in it; however, I didn't start adding it til Rivers was over 15mnths old.

Biggest reason for my questioning about the Vit c being a requirement for joint health, is I've never raised a large breed on Vit C and they've all been perfectly joint healthy; however, I will add that Rivers (who appears to be very joint healthy) is our first actual retriever.....

Whenever one does research joint/hip problems, retrievers, shephards, rotties are always the first and foremost affected breeds. Will say I was leary to adopt Rivers at first because of the plagued joint issues with retrievers.

All of our other dogs were either St Bernards, aussies, malamutes, border collies, Bernese Mountain dogs, ....none of them ever had joint issues...however, I will add that not one of any of our dogs were ever completely raised on dry food either. They all got fruits/veggies/fresh meat off the table more so then dry dog food....perhaps this helps, I don't know.

Interested to hear more though with actual studies would be nice.

[uplander]

Originally Posted by Doppler

Save your money and don't take unnecessary risks with a puppy.


https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

If you supplement with Vit. C the dog will produce less of his own. According to a fairly recent study, if you give high doses of Vit. C long term then you could be looking at osteoarthritis problems. There is no minimum daily requirement for dogs since they make their own. If you supplement with Vit. C the dog will produce less but you don't know how much Vit. C will cause an excessively high dose.


http://arthritis.about.com/od/preven...a/vitaminc.htm

Thank you for some good links.....

Poor Dr Belfield gets no respect....I think he is mis understood....As long as the puppy produces enough Vit C on his own all is fine....What about the dogs that don't...Is that the main genetic flaw that causes HD ?

Daniel C. Richardson
DVM Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Director, Advanced Research Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc., Topeka, Kansas

is his research any different than Belfield's ?

You can hang your hat on any study...

and I never would have supplemented on my own....My pups breeder has experience doing this....My Satch seems to have had no ill effects eating Cal NAt LAmb supplemented with Mega C Plus ..He runs, hikes mtns, Hunts for hundreds of hours during the season with no limps.or struggle getting up from sit. I also attribute his being positive for Lyme Tick but being asymptomatic because Vit C supports the immune system..as well as Fish oil and Vit E.

[Doppler]

Originally Posted by uplander

Vit C has to be used in a way you give amounts until loose bowel happens...then you back off until the bowel firms again.

This dosage for Vit. C is (was) intended for pain management only, this is no longer recommended long term, it's not much good short term either because it can take up to 30 days to be effective. Your dog is better off with something from your vet for short term use to get immediate benefits.