cigar hold

[rmilner]

I consider a gundog's job to be retrieve a bird and deliver it to hand. How he carries it is not relevant, as long as it is delivered to hand.
If carrying a dummy grasped by the middle did matter to me I would first try to find a dummy (probably canvas) or dokken of the size and shape that the dog will carry by the middle and I would use that to establish well the behavior.
Generally a dog will naturally gravitate over time to carrying the dummy or bird by the most efficient manner, which is grasping at middle.

Here is another professional trainer's take on force fetch:

Some thoughts on force fetch training for retriever gundogs:

• My current practice is to get as much of fetch done with play as possible. Some dogs get it simply from kicking the dummy with your foot and saying “fetch it up” playfully. Many more will get it from using a tennis ball. Roll the ball. When dog fetches and brings the ball to you, immediately reward dog with a short toss. We have all seen house dogs that learn on their own that bringing the ball to a human produces a toss. All you need to do is associate a signal (command) with that behavior.
• I have found that I can get probably 80% of dogs to fetch from ground and deliver to hand with play training. Most Labs are born delivering to hand and simply need that behavior reinforced and preserved. The other 20% go through the “force fetch – Light” program.
• I am training gundogs and thus am only concerned with delivery to hand. I am not concerned with advanced Field Trial lining behaviors, thus I am not concerned with forcing to go
• I have found that the lighter the pressure (pinch), the faster the overall process proceeds. You want to use just enough pressure to make the dog uneasy so that he wants to escape. Then you provide the escape path which is the dummy in mouth.
• When the dummy is in the dogs mouth: lots of reward with petting and praise. You are defining the behavior you want. It is very simple.

-Dummy not in mouth - feel bad


-Dummy in mouth- feel good

• As I look over all the past dogs I have force fetched I am fairly sure that the biggest problems and the longest overall training times usually were the result of too much pressure (pinch). There is a human tendency to try to make a dog’s response faster by increasing the pressure. With many dogs this is counter productive. A slow response to pressure is generally attributable to fear and higher pressure simply produces higher fear level with limited learning. The way to increase response speed is with reward. This is somewhat counterintuitive for humans. The petting and praise when dummy is in mouth generally provides the speed up of response.
• I have found that if I use extremely light pressure, just enough that the dog is uncomfortable, and do not worry about speed of response (apply the light pinch and let him find the escape route at his own speed) then I can force fetch a dog generally in 10 to 15 sessions of 3 to 5 minutes. Many dogs can get it in 5 or 6 sessions, especially when an element of play is incorporated.
• Last but not least, the definition of the level of pressure is determined entirely by the dog, the human’s opinion is not relevant.
• All the above being said, I use canvas dummies and tennis balls exclusively in early training because they are comfortable for a dog to carry and lead to minimum mouth and delivery problems. This tends to minimize the time I have to spend on force fetch and maximize the time I can spend on the more important behaviors of whistle stopping, directional casts and blind retrieves.

Best Regards,
Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com

[Baron]

I have the same problem while Baron retrieves his dummies. About 5 out of 10 he retrieves like a cigar like you call it. I saw this video on youtube about force fetching and saw this dummy this guy uses to FF his dogs. I assumed he maybe uses this sort of dummy to stop or eliminate the cigar hold.

Some of you propably know the real reason why he uses this type of dummy but i think it can help with the cigar hold. I modified my dummy at the ends so that the dog cant grab there. And doing force fetch with it. I know it is not a big issue carrying like a cigar but it just looks better when he carries it the correct way. And he then cant trip over the end of the dummy hanging close to the ground.

[EvanG]

I think some if the gadgetry trainers use to assure a well-centered hold is fine, within limits. But training is training.

I'll tell you why it matters to me that a dog is not sloppy about his mouth habits. That 'cigar' hold is often symptomatic of a sloppy, irresponsible attitude in the dog. I've seen far too many trainers - even those with supposed Master Hunter dogs - who are still constantly reminding their dogs on each retrieve..."hold", "hold", "hold"...as they return; knowing they will probably drop the bird, or roll the bird, mouth the bird, or any of dozens of undesireable things, if they aren't constantly reminded.

A dog that needs constant reminders isn't trained, and isn't ready to hunt...not with me. No dog becomes a machine; 100% spot on all the time. But trained dogs become reliable, and don't need constant reminding to do thier job!

Do it. Do it right. Do it right the first time, and keep the training maintained. Remember, those useful skills your dog has were not his idea. They were yours. He just wants the birds!

EvanG

[rmilner]

My basic principle for dog training is "make it easy for the dog to do what you want and then repeat it until it becomes a habit". Canvas dummies support that principle.
I have found that canvas dummies result in much less mouthing and much fewer "carrying issues" than do the plastic dummies. I have also found that the time spent dealing with the mouth issues created by plastic dummies is much better spent on training whistle stopping, hand signals and blind retrieves.

Best Regards,
Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com

[Baron]

Originally Posted by rmilner

My basic principle for dog training is "make it easy for the dog to do what you want and then repeat it until it becomes a habit". Canvas dummies support that principle.
I have found that canvas dummies result in much less mouthing and much fewer "carrying issues" than do the plastic dummies. I have also found that the time spent dealing with the mouth issues created by plastic dummies is much better spent on training whistle stopping, hand signals and blind retrieves.

I only use canvas dummies. But there was still a carrying issue. So i modified one so that it cant be carried on the side or like a cigar. And doing force fetch. Everything is going smoothly and only time will tell whether he will still be picking up the dummy on the side when yard training continues.

If the problem persists i will use the modified dummies in yard training for a while so that hopefully it will become a habit to carry the dummy in the middle. But this is only my theory and hoping it works .

And i do believe when there is a problem in training it can become a problem while in the field.