Color question

[javadoo]

Ok, so I know that black is the dominant color and both yellow and chocolate are recessive. It's ok to breed black/chocolate and black/yellow.
What happens if you breed chocolate/yellow, where they are both recessive colors?? What color are the pups???

I am just asking this out of curiousity...I am not interested in breeding my dogs in ANY way. I just always wondered.......

Gina

[Patty/Breeder]

Go to http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

You will see all combinations of breeding and what colors those breedings can produce.

[javadoo]

Ok, so going by that chart you CAN breed a chocolate to a yellow. I didn't think you could without getting a funky color. I have actually never seen/heard of anyone breeding a chocolate to a yellow. Only the chocolate/black and yellow/black combo. Does anyone on here have a pup from a chocolate/yellow breeding?
Interesting that you can breed certain chocolates to certain yellows and get an all black litter!!!
Patty. have you ever bred a chocolate to a yellow?
My brother used to breed chocolates, but he never bred a chocolate to a yellow, only to other chocolates and blacks.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the site!

[DarwinsMom]

Originally Posted by javadoo

Ok, so I know that black is the dominant color and both yellow and chocolate are recessive.

Kinda. Chocolate is a simple recessive to Black. Yellow is separate and is a "masking gene". Think of it this way... all labradors are either black or chocolate (you can tell which by pigment). When the masking (yellow) gene is "turned off" (EE or Ee- at least one dominant allele) that Black or Chocolate is also seen in coat color. When the masking gene is "turned on" (ee-two recessive alleles) the coat color is Yellow.

It's ok to breed black/chocolate and black/yellow.
What happens if you breed chocolate/yellow, where they are both recessive colors?? What color are the pups???

It's "ok" to breed any of the colors and ideally you'll know what the individual dogs carry and what the resulting color(s) in the litter should be. Breeders avoid breeding dogs that carry both yellow and chocolate so that they won't produce dudleys, which are a disqualification in the breed ring. Dudleys can be produced by breeding two chocolates or two blacks if you don't know what you're doing

The site Patty gave explains more and gives you all the color combos.

[javadoo]

Ok, that makes sense.
The site did show breeding combos of yellows/chocolates, but I have never heard of anyone doing that particular breeding combo.
So that's where the dudleys come from!!! And dudleys go against the breed standard, correct? The nose and eye area of yellows should be black to conform,right?

[WigWag]

A dudley is simply a chocolate with yellow fur - the skin and pigmentation is that of a chocolate whereas a "correct" yellow with a black nose and pigment is a black dog with yellow fur. A dudley can be produced from two black parents, two yellow parents, a black and a yellow, etc. It all depends on what the parents carry for color. Breeding a chocolate to a yellow typically will yield all black puppies - black just like any other black. Only when the chocolate carries yellow and the yellow carries chocolate will you get all three colors including the possibility of a dudley.

Before coat color genetics were understood people often assumed that the dudley was a combination of yellow and chocolate so that breeding yellows and chocolates together would yield dudleys. This is not true now that we know how the colors work with one another.

A dudley is a disqualification but it's a naturally occurring color combination in our breed and in all breeds that have black, liver (chocolate), and red (yellow). For example the English Setter has black and white, liver and white, orange and white (black nose), and lemon and white (liver nose).

[windycanyon]

Originally Posted by WigWag

A dudley is simply a chocolate with yellow fur - the skin and pigmentation is that of a chocolate whereas a "correct" yellow with a black nose and pigment is a black dog with yellow fur. .

This is not true!

A dudley in our breed is one with pink pigment.... not to be confused w/ a yellow w/ choc pigment.

The DQ (in AKC) only applies to a dog lacking any pigment, ie a thoroughly pink nose and pink eye rims.

There HAVE been liver pigmented yellows win their CH in AKC.

Anne

[Random Gemini]

If that's true, what would the breeding pairs look like where you would most likely expect to see a dudley in the litter?

How do you avoid getting a dudley?

I'm also just curious. I always wondered how dudleys showed up. Hubby seems to think that liver pigmented yellows are dudleys, but I DO see a difference when I look at the dogs and wondered why.

[DarwinsMom]

Originally Posted by windycanyon

A dudley in our breed is one with pink pigment.... not to be confused w/ a yellow w/ choc pigment.

I disagree. I personally would call a chocolate pigmented yellow a dudley and I think most out there would do the same. Maybe we should take a poll on a breeder board.

There HAVE been liver pigmented yellows win their CH in AKC.

Can you point me to one?

[uplander]

Originally Posted by windycanyon

This is not true!

A dudley in our breed is one with pink pigment.... not to be confused w/ a yellow w/ choc pigment.

The DQ (in AKC) only applies to a dog lacking any pigment, ie a thoroughly pink nose and pink eye rims.

There HAVE been liver pigmented yellows win their CH in AKC.

Anne

I think we all could learn a thing or two from WigWag.....she has the educational background to understand genetics...

[Annette47]

Originally Posted by uplander

I think we all could learn a thing or two from WigWag.....she has the educational background to understand genetics...

The question here though is terminology (ie what is a dudley), not genetics.

I have heard the term used both ways - to refer to a dog lacking in pigment, as well as to refer to a liver pigmented yellow ... not sure which is "technically" correct.

And that's all I care to contribute to a discussion about dudleys.

[windycanyon]

Originally Posted by DarwinsMom

I disagree. I personally would call a chocolate pigmented yellow a dudley and I think most out there would do the same. Maybe we should take a poll on a breeder board.

Can you point me to one?

Back in the old days of the original Lab-L email chat board (early/mid 90's if you were around then), there were actually several breeder judges who enlightened many of us newbies at the time-- on what was and was not a Dudley in our breed... along w/ many other breed facts.

A long time breeder/mentor told me of one of the girls here in the NW who was a liver pigmented yellow who finished her CH. I may have it in my notes somewhere (she may be behind the stud I used from that gal for all I know!) and certainly can ask since I remember well who told me, but honestly, these very "pointed" requests get tiring.

Read the standard as they make that point about "thoroughly pink" pigment being the DQ quite clearly (and that is what a Dudley is in the lab breed, according to those judges who explained this long ago). Liver pigment such that chocs tend to have is not the same thing!

[windycanyon]

Originally Posted by Random Gemini

If that's true, what would the breeding pairs look like where you would most likely expect to see a dudley in the litter?

How do you avoid getting a dudley?

I'm also just curious. I always wondered how dudleys showed up. Hubby seems to think that liver pigmented yellows are dudleys, but I DO see a difference when I look at the dogs and wondered why.

Avoid breeding pairs that carry both yellow and chocolate basically, since that is how the eebb (yellow w/ liver --or pink-- pigment can be produced). http://www.labbies.com/genetics.htm is the most interesting/complete online reference I could point you to. I don't think there is a way to predict how dark the pigment will end up in an eebb, so that's why folks say it's one to "avoid" producing. Some pups will end up w/ a very attractive (imo) chocolate pigment, others pink.. not so attractive. Anne

A google brought this up (note the eye rims on the puppy): http://www.labrador-retriever-guide.com/dudleylab.html

[windycanyon]

Originally Posted by uplander

I think we all could learn a thing or two from WigWag.....she has the educational background to understand genetics...

Okay, so here is a direct cut/paste from an article that Sharon wrote and apparently Laura/Woodhaven/Kelrobin supplemented: http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/yellow-pigment.html

Note! I hope this doesnt get me into trouble, but if it does, I'll be happy to erase the direct quotes. Laura was on the old Lab-L when all of our discussions were taking place, before the advent of these chat boards. The bolding is MY accent.

"A true Dudley (pink pigment) can and generally do have the tendancy to sunburn, so you do need to be careful of them in the sunlight."

and

What is a Dudley? You're going to get different answers from different people. A true Dudley is totally lacking in pigment. Its nose, eye rims and feet are as pink as the day they are born.

And........
A yellow with a brown/chocolate nose is NOT lacking in pigment, so they are not a Dudley and should not be referred to as such.

[WigWag]

Anne that is something Laura and I disagree on and that is what she "supplemented" in the article.

And my facts are correct according to Dr. Sheila Schmutz of the University of Saskachewan and leading authority on canine coat color genetics. It is a common misconception that there is a difference between a liver pigmented yellow and one lacking pigment. There is no such thing as a dog that lacks pigment unless it has a form of albinism. It's genetically impossible. People didn't know this when standards were created and good luck getting a standard changed now.

I have never seen a yellow "totally lacking in pigment" nor have I ever heard of liver pigmented yellow in the conformation ring let alone one that attained a championship but I have heard rumors - never a fact but it may have happened - someone interpreted the standard correctly and deemed a dog with brown pigmentation is eligible - I really don't know.

A "Dudley" was a term first used on Bulldogs when a liver pigmented red showed up in a breeding back in the 1800s. The dog was assumed to be "lacking" pigment since it's nose was not the traditional black - it was liver colored. The breeders didn't like it and it took a while but they deemed it a disqualification in the Bulldog standard.

Now the Labrador standard included what they thought back then as the same as the "Dudley" Bulldogs - dogs that lacked pigment. Again no dog can "lack pigment" - so they either have black or liver or pink which is the direct result of white on black coloration (think of a Boxer with white markings - where the white crosses the nose and muzzle the skin is pink). In a Labrador we do not have white markings so the pigment is either black or liver. Sometimes a yellow that is supposed to have all black will have eye rims and parts of their lips and nose that are pinkish when they are puppies and have "poor pigment" that is slow to come in but the majority turns black save for the nose which may stay pinkish/purple but that is the result of what we commonly call "snow nose" which is a breakdown of tyrosinase.

So a very light colored yellow with pink nose, lips, eyerims, and blue/green eyes as a puppy, etc is the exact same genetically (on the color and pigment genes) as a darker yellow with more brown nose, lips, and eyerims and green eyes as a puppy. They are both liver nosed yellows which has been commonly called a "Dudley".

So the standard is wrong - a Dudley is NOT a dog that "totally lacks pigment" so yes a Dudley with liver pigment should be eligible to compete in conformation - they don't simply because of the history of the breed and the standard.

This is my Dudley below - he is the same as the lighter colored one above. Notice that Laura does not have a photo for what some say is a dog "lacking all pigment" - she has a newborn yellow to illustrate what they WOULD look like. I would imagine that some judges would accept a dog with the coloring of my Dudley - he's dark enough to have the brown look more "normal" but he is "Dudley" nonetheless.