Color question

[WigWag]

Normal Bulldog pigmentation:


Dudley Bulldog - you can clearly see for yourself that this is not a dog that "lacks pigment" in any way - liver pigment but early dog fanciers however took the lack of BLACK for lacking pigment.

[windycanyon]

Sharon,

Like red nosed pits. You'll just have to argue that with the judges and their judge's education committees. I know that some breeds call anything but black Dudley, but ours does not (and I have seen PINK fleshed Labs-- both nose and eye rim, just as the one google link showed, btw, so to say it doesn't exist is just not right).

Laura has good foundation for supplementing that, imo. Your boy is not a Dudley according to what the judges that participated in those long lost (and quite educational) discussions stated. Dang, I miss those days. I was put in my place a few times too, but I always learned from that chat list! Anne

[WigWag]

(and I have seen PINK fleshed Labs-- both nose and eye rim, just as the one google link showed, btw, so to say it doesn't exist is just not right).

It's not that a pink fleshed nose, lips, and eyerim on a yellow doesn't exist - they do but they do not LACK pigment - they have light liver pigment whereas my boy has dark liver pigment. They are both eebb - just different shades like different shades of yellow and chocolate coat color.

When you say you've seen dogs with pink colored pigment are they different from the ones below that I just Googled? I have seen some a bit lighter than these espcially as puppies.









Here below is my guy again - he's a darker color and so has a darker color nose but again he is the same as the above dogs genetically.


It's a very common myth that there are two separate yellows with pink noses, lips, etc - one that "lacks" pigment and another that has liver or chocolate pigment. Yes some are lighter than others in color - some are "flesh colored" and some are "brown colored" but they are the same - an eebb dog - a liver nosed yellow - a yellow with no black pigment (NBP) and traditionally deemed a "Dudley". The problem lies with the folks who originally thought that a Dudley dog of any breed "lacked" pigment simply because they came out with this pink/brown coloration that was NOT black.

I do think that a Dudley should be accepted by our standard and shown - it's a naturally occurring color combination in a breed like ours that has both black/liver and yellow/red.

[WigWag]

Oh and I was a member of the Lab-L and the LABSR4U lists starting from 1997 - whenever they discontinued. I also remember participating in quite a few Dudley discussions. My first guy is a Dudley and in 1997 there were a LOT of misconceptions out there about him. At my first hunt test training day someone came up and told my husband he needed to put on sunscreen as he "lacked" pigment and so got sunburned easily. Another person told us he was probably deaf and would have problems because Dudleys were prone to health problems like white Boxers. Now these were long time breeders. Being "in genetics" I decided to look into it before I panicked about my dog. I asked a lot of questions about the differences between a dog that lacked pigment and my dog who had brown. I was given a lot of different answers. The person who really got down to it with me was Pam Davol. She at the time suspected that all the dogs with yellow coats and pink or brown pigment were the same - all eebbs.

I emailed Dr. Schmutz about it - didn't save the email - I will email her again and post her reply here.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

[windycanyon]

Originally Posted by WigWag

Oh and I was a member of the Lab-L and the LABSR4U lists starting from 1997 - whenever they discontinued.

Lab-L is still going... not terribly strong due to moderator or server issues, but it's still there.

I would guess the first ones (if they remained w/ pink eyerims/nose-- like they are), would be DQd. I doubt the last ones would since that obviously is not "thoroughly pink" esp w/ the choc eyerims, lips, nose (I've seen far worse yellows w/ snow nose in the ring, personally).

Whether the dog would do great in today's ring, that's a different story, but I suppose if there were the minimal number of labs entered for a single point, and one had poor movement, and another had mediocre structure or type, another wasn't crazy about the judge going over it, (the list goes on)... and here comes an otherwise very nice specimen except for his choc pigment, I believe he'd have a chance at the point or 2. There would be no reason in my interpretation of the standard to withhold the point(s) since his pigment is not "thoroughly pink". Anne

[labby]

Originally Posted by DarwinsMom

I disagree. I personally would call a chocolate pigmented yellow a dudley and I think most out there would do the same. Maybe we should take a poll on a breeder board.

Judges can't agree on what is a dudley. Some say pink, some say chocolate/liver pigment. I talked to a breeder judge and they said pink, the next one said chocolate/liver.

It all depends on the judge's interpretation.

[labby]

Originally Posted by Random Gemini

How do you avoid getting a dudley?

Stay away from dogs carrying chocolate.

[LBMWEM]

I have a "Dudley" I belive. He had a Black Sire and a Yellow Dam. Both of which I have seen and were beautiful dogs. My Dudley is AKC, UKC. Hes just 10 weeks old. I am trying to figure it out.. cause his nose isnt pure pink but its flesh colored and his eyes are not outlined in dark color.. its light.. However his mouth is solid pink and his belly is white. When I post enough I will send a pic.. LOL.. I do want WIG WAG to see his picture and let me know what she thinks.. He might not be standard AKC but he sure is a sweety!!