Continued mouthiness (LONG post)

[Laura]

Theo has been a challenging puppy from the very start. We have been to Puppy Kindergarten and Basic Obedience I. He does very well at training class, and will start Basic Obedience II in the summer. He has been and continues to be socialized extensively. We train every day, and he is still challenging. I'm not a wimp, and I am more than happy to put in the work to get a good dog out of my puppy. That's my job. My sister repeatedly tells me that she would have returned him to the breeder or taken him to a shelter. This weekend she said that "normal" puppies aren't still "biting" at his age.

I don't want to be one of those defensive pet owners that is overly sensitive about her dog's behavior, but I don't think he is THAT bad. I'm not sure if I am minimizing it because I have been there to see his progress over time (and know that it was SO BAD in the beginning), so I welcome advice. I'm going to try to paint a picture so you can tell what I'm talking about, but please feel free to ask clarifying questions.

When I brought Theo home, he was eight weeks old and quite busy. He was very mouthy, and would play and play until he was crated. Because he would never just lie down and sleep, he would sometimes become overstimulated and that made the biting all the worse. The vet recommended pinching his lip against a tooth when he would chomp, and that usually made him madder. Instead, I got better at reading his cues and would give him a rest when he was amping up in an overstimulated frenzy. So, the naps did the trick. He did go through a spell of a couple weeks where he would nip at me if I wasn't paying attention. If I was making dinner or sitting at the dinner table, he would drop the toy and nip my butt or back, essentially demanding attention. Thankfully, he and I are past that stage.

When he would play, I would always have toys handy and would offer him a toy when he would come at me with his teeth. I coached my Mom (who does not live with me, but frequently visits) to do the same. He pretty much has a toy or a chew in his mouth all of the time now, and I am fine with that.

What I am not fine with is his behavior around some other family members. He can be incredibly gentle with some kids (2yo niece, 3yo niece, 8yo niece) but he bullies my 7yo nephew. Of course, my nephew acts like a puppy by chasing and running from the dog, playing down on the floor/ground. We've talked repeatedly about acting like a puppy and being treated like a puppy and that is how puppies play. I've essentially told him (and his mother) that if he continues to play that way, Theo will continue to grab him by the shirt (or arm-ouch!), throw him down, and try to wrestle with him. Reaching over him usually is met with an open mouth going in the direction of the wrist, with the exception of me reaching for his head. I've talked to everyone about how to approach him, petting his chest rather than over his head due to that. But we are to the point now where every time my sister reaches towards him to pet him, he mouths her. With a toy in his face, he will sit and let her pet him.

So what do I do about his mouthing? How do I break that with other people? I don't feel like it is an aggressive thing, but I still need to fix it.

[Labradorks]

What I am not fine with is his behavior around some other family members. He can be incredibly gentle with some kids (2yo niece, 3yo niece, 8yo niece) but he bullies my 7yo nephew. Of course, my nephew acts like a puppy by chasing and running from the dog, playing down on the floor/ground. We've talked repeatedly about acting like a puppy and being treated like a puppy and that is how puppies play. I've essentially told him (and his mother) that if he continues to play that way, Theo will continue to grab him by the shirt (or arm-ouch!), throw him down, and try to wrestle with him. Reaching over him usually is met with an open mouth going in the direction of the wrist, with the exception of me reaching for his head. I've talked to everyone about how to approach him, petting his chest rather than over his head due to that. But we are to the point now where every time my sister reaches towards him to pet him, he mouths her. With a toy in his face, he will sit and let her pet him.

So what do I do about his mouthing? How do I break that with other people? I don't feel like it is an aggressive thing, but I still need to fix it.

If the dog acts OK around the kids who are quiet, it is not the dog, it's the kid that is acting like an 8 year old boy (and not listening). I had the same problem with one of my nieces and Sam was not really more challenging than the next puppy with exception of his size. When a kid is on the floor rolling around, screaming, acting like a dog, a young dog is going to act up. So, there are a few options. One would be that the kid needs to listen or get in trouble, but I understand that if it's not a quick visit, you can't really expect a little boy to sit there with his hands folded in his lap. Another option would be to keep them separated until one or both are mature enough to handle hanging out. Yet another option would be to watch your dog like a hawk and as soon as you think he might be thinking of chomping on the boy, get the dog under control.

Wanna know what I did? I used a squirt bottle filled with water. Yes, I squirted the dog, but eventually I squirted the kid, too, and told her if she was going to act like a dog, I'd treat her like a dog. I did this after Sam went for the back of her neck like he was playing. He was so riled up and "forgot" she was a kid. After that, no excuses. If we'd been outside, I would have hosed them both, so they were lucky! That said, my sister was not there and if she were she may have gotten annoyed with me.

Also, if it makes you feel better, I had a Lab with zero prey drive. He did not even swim. I never tried him around birds or anything, but he didn't retrieve either. I don't remember him ever putting his teeth on me. He never jumped, pawed, barked, whined... He was kinda like a stuffed dog that ate and went to the bathroom. Well, I dated someone with kids in the 8, 9, 10 year age-range and when they would run and scream, he would jump them, mouth them, and bite on their jackets. He pinched them a few times and ripped holes in their coats. It was just so exciting to him. I think he was around 11 or 12 at the time. It was really quite shocking.

He should grow out of it for the most part, but remember that Labs aren't adults until they are about three years old, even with the best training. And your dog is what, 9 months? They are all just awful at that age!

[brownietrout]

Our lab simply would NOT learn to keep her mouth off of us. After more than a year of constant training, trying everything else, (she sounds a lot like yours, High energy) we resorted to one last thing and it worked.
Whenever we felt her mouth on us we would stuff our fingers further in than she wanted them. She would gag a little and I stress A LITTLE! We didn't stuff our hands down her throat, just enough to make it an unpleasant feeling. Only had to do it a few times before she quit mouthing. Now she licks.....

[Labradorks]

Our lab simply would NOT learn to keep her mouth off of us. After more than a year of constant training, trying everything else, (she sounds a lot like yours, High energy) we resorted to one last thing and it worked.
Whenever we felt her mouth on us we would stuff our fingers further in than she wanted them. She would gag a little and I stress A LITTLE! We didn't stuff our hands down her throat, just enough to make it an unpleasant feeling. Only had to do it a few times before she quit mouthing. Now she licks.....

The thing about this is that you can't really expect a 7 year old child to do it. Or do it right or without getting hurt or consistently.

[TuMicks]

I guess I don't quite understand. Is "mouthing" the same thing as biting?

Biting is bad. Mouthing is what dogs do because they don't have hands. I mean... imagine if dogs had a net forum, you'd have threads about "How can I get my person to stop handing me?" "I mean... geeze, she's 34 years old and still she has to touch me all the time. Have you ever had this problem? I mean... I've tried barking at her and ignoring her and turning my back on her and nothing works. Do you think it's time for me to bite her? I hate to be rude. But enough is enough!"

[Laura]

I actually think I have two things going on. I have the act like a puppy and get treated like a puppy biting thing. I have addressed that with both the child and his mother. The boy asked me once if I could put Theo in his crate so he could play. I explained to him "No, honey. This is Theo's house. I'm not going to crate him when you come over. Would it be fair to send you to your room every time we came over so Theo could play alone?" There have been times when Theo has been calm around the same child. The boy was watching a movie, and Theo just laid on the floor chewing a bully stick. The boy noticed and said something about Theo being "good". I made sure to point out that Theo was calm when he wasn't running around, yelling "Theo! Chase me!"

I do think I am going to try the squirt bottle thing for when the play starts to progress from romping to grabbing the boy and throwing him to the ground. It will probably serve as a good reminder to both that it is time to settle down a little.

The mouthing that I am talking about is in reference to how he reacts when adults reach towards him. The turning his head and meeting their wrist with his teeth. He's not chomping them, but I imagine he is trying to tell them to stop that or get off of him. I would like (eventually) to have a dog that can be approached by anyone without him meeting them with his teeth. I do try to coach both family and strangers about approaching him a different way, coming to the side or petting his chest. I tell them that their body language is aggressive and that many dogs don't like you reaching for their head. Still, they do it. If he has a toy in his mouth, he is less likely to mouth their arm.

[barry581]

Sophie was very much like Theo. I found the lip curl worked very well, and I also used the press my hand into her mouth until she gagged and released, again nothing aggressive, just enough pressure to make her want to let go. A stern "no bite" was given at the same time. She was about one when she finally figured it out. Bruce figured it after about 3 lip curls, but he was never really bad with it.

I also had the issue with my grandson (he was 3 at the time) and Sophie. I'd tell him, don't make eye contact, no running, and no squeaky noises. Once he figured that out, they became the best of friends and they love playing together.

Rest assured that you do not have a defective dog, you have a typical landshark lab puppy. Like most things with puppies, this too shall pass.

[Tanya]

honestly i would tether theo to me. i'm super cautious about kids and dogs. I wouldn't allow theo to play like that even if it meant tehtering, crating, working on "stay on your mat". something. I would also depending on the circumstances have a chat with his parents about accetapble behaviour when at your home. Yes kids are kids but maybe they should hit a park to let off some steam/energy before coming over to chill (or dpeending how many kids come over and their ages an adult or two take the kids to a park to play together).

I would never let the dog get overstimulated and jump at a child in hopes the kid "learns to stop doing that". This is how accidents happen and dogs get blamed (you may not but the other mom will).

I do NOT let penny play with my niece and nephew unless it's controlled and supervised. Even fetch. This past weekend I had her stay by my side while my nephew threw a ball around and played (which for penny is like her FAVORITE thing to do so this was not "easy"). The ball he was playing with wasn't penny appropriate (she had already destroyed their first ball).

ETA: Theo sounds totally normal. sometimes it's just easier to manage VS train a kid and a dog in that particular situation. I can't wrestle with Rocky because when he gets into it he is pretty intense and just - too much. even for me!

[Labradorks]

If I were you, I'd probably also put the dog away or tether him, as Tanya said. If the mom won't listen, the dog won't listen, and the kid won't listen (but he is only seven, so what so we expect?) the best option is to separate them and put the dog in a position where you have absolute control. If there is movie watching, quiet times, etc. then maybe that is a good time to allow them spend time together. Sometimes the path of least resistance is your best bet. You also don't want this to turn into an issue with your sister and her kid versus your kid. Theo will grow up, as will the kid, and this will all be a distant memory...

If someone is dropping by or if I know they don't love having the dogs all over them, I have no problem putting them away. My dogs are absolutely awful when we have guests. It is so embarrassing. People say, "I thought you trained them all the time?". But, I also know it's the person's fault as much as the dogs'. If someone comes over and is willing to say "off" or "sit" and refuse to pet them until they are being good, then they are fine. But, people get them all riled up and excited, so, what can you do? If it's not the excitement, it's the hair, and during certain times of the year, it's really bad. I don't have a this is my dog's house rule. It's my house. If I don't feel like dealing with the craziness or if I know my guest is coming by and dressed nicely, the dogs don't visit. No one has asked me to put them away though my sister thanked me for it when she showed up wearing white jeans the other day.

As far as the "I'm annoyed with you so don't touch me" stuff, that would send me directly to a trainer to determine if it is what I am thinking it is or not. If a dog feels they can put their teeth on me when he doesn't want me doing something, I would be concerned. Besides the trainer, I'd be doing serious NILIF, clear and consistent leadership, and get him to obedience/rally/agility/whatever floats your boat. Yes, you should respect your dog's wishes and not do things that make them uncomfortable, but this is not the right way to communicate that. Not only that, but it's something that people are going to do and he needs to learn to accept it. I'd also work with him on desensitizing. Did you do Puppy STAR? You work on the puppies with desensitizing collar grabs and leading by the collar. This would be similar. I would be worried that people would ignore it ("oh, he just mouths .... he would never bite") and the dog would feel the need to increase the pressure. Much like a growl turns into a bite when the growl no longer works. But, first, have someone help you determine exactly what he is doing and why.

[Laura]

I put him away sometimes when people come. I know he can be a bit much. The only person that I actually have the "This is his house" issue with is the 7yo boy (Dash) that Theo is rough with. Sometimes I have him on Friday overnight, and they are often at my house on Saturdays and Sundays as well. I feel bad for the dog because he is crated while I work, so I think we are going to have to work it out that he doesn't end up crated more than necessary on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. Last Friday, I ended up baby-gating Dash in the bedroom to play for a while so the dog could get some play time too. I can tether Theo to me as well. That may be a better solution for getting them to co-exist.

Theo doesn't do that mouthing with me. The person that he does it with the most is my sister. He will occasionally do that to a stranger, when the stranger reaches for his head. We did not go to Puppy STAR specifically, but went to a puppy kindergarten at the dog training club where we worked on sit, down, stay, loose leash walking, and some socialization stuff like going through the tunnel, walking through a ladder, up and down on an A-frame, and sitting on a wobble board (whatever that was called). The next level that we did was Basic Obedience I. That reinforced sits, downs, we did a 3 minute stay, walked on a loose leash and worked on keeping him in heel position, worked on swinging to heel position and going behind to heel, did leave-its, recalls on a long line with a collar grab. I forget what else. He did mouth at that trainer when she reached for his head. So I need to fix that as far as other people are concerned. I will need to go to a different trainer, because the only thing the trainer did was say "Boy, he's mouthy."