Fear Of The Unknown???

[IRISHWISTLER]

Thanks to all that have participated in and contributed to this thread. I assumed it might be controversial upon me original post, but also felt the exchange of information it might generate was of far greater value than the risks associated with walking the unpopular road. People are highly opinionated on certain matters and that is OK, it does approach cult-like proportions when folks are fearful or reluctant to express their viewpoint due to fears of being demonized for having a specific view. It seems if ye come out swinging or presenting views that cannot be backed with verifiable supportive evidence, that ye will risk the fallout that comes with doing so and I would suggest that such should be expected. On that note, let it be clear that I am an advocate of e-collar conditioning and FORCE FETCH, and I make no apologies for using either within me set of available tools as a trainer.

Again, thanks to all for sharing your views on this matter.

Regards,
Irishwhistler

[Mudlark]

I've been following this most interesting thread but am more than a little confused over the titles - can somebody point me to a link which tells me what all these letters mean please? Over here obedience and working trials are very much separate sports and from playing on a canine internet game (!!) I worked out that perhaps they were not so separate over there??

[Sue]

I've been told by a person on here several times that what I have done with my dogs is insignificant and means nothing and yeah, that sucks, because it means a lot to me. It does take a lot of work and time and a certain love for our pets, and for someone to get in front of the judge for the first time, with an animal who may or may not be cooperative, is really hard and takes guts!

Don't let one or two people bum you out. Especially when those one or two people really don't have the credentials in field training, beyond a Junior Hunter title. And no AKC championships titles, either.
I brought out the popcorn to follow this thread, and yeah, it's been the same old same old rehash of the supposed benefits of force fetch. I am totally in agreement with people like Annette, mostly positive training, but appropriate corrections when needed. A lot of these so-called field trainers espousing the harsher methods don't even have a clue what positive training means.
So, be proud of what you've accomplished, and look forward to accomplishing so much more with your dogs.

[Annette47]

I've been following this most interesting thread but am more than a little confused over the titles - can somebody point me to a link which tells me what all these letters mean please? Over here obedience and working trials are very much separate sports and from playing on a canine internet game (!!) I worked out that perhaps they were not so separate over there??

Titles and Abbreviations - American Kennel Club lists all of the various titles offered by the AKC.

Some of the more common you will see here are the hunting titles JH (junior hunter) SH (senior hunter) MH (master hunter). WC stands for “working certificate” and is offered by the parent breed club, not the AKC. On the field trial side there are FC (field champion), AFC (Amateur field champion), and QAA (Qualified All Ages?). I’m not sure what the differences are as I don’t compete in Field Trials.

In Obedience, which is completely separate by the way, the more common titles are CD (Companion Dog - Novice class), CDX (Companion Dog Excellent - Open class), UD (Utility Dog - Utility class), UDX (Utility Dog Excellent - means you qualified in both Utility and Open on the same day 10 times) and OTCH (Obedience Trial Champion). BN which was mentioned on this thread stands for “Beginner Novice” and is a level below CD, but is an optional class, meaning you don’t need to compete in it unless you want to - you can start straight out in Novice, which leads to a CD. Rally titles are RN (Rally Novice), RA (Rally Advanced), RE (Rally Excellent), and RAE (Rally Advanced/Excellent -the Rally equivalent of a UDX).

Agility is an alphabet soup of possible titles - way too many to go into here, lol.

Hope this helps a bit.

[ZEKESMAN]

Enjoyed the debate. AFC amateur field champion. Meaning they were handled by an amateur. Most likely their owner. NFC national field champion. NAFC national amateur field champion.

[TuMicks]

Don't let one or two people bum you out. Especially when those one or two people really don't have the credentials in field training, beyond a Junior Hunter title. And no AKC championships titles, either.
I brought out the popcorn to follow this thread, and yeah, it's been the same old same old rehash of the supposed benefits of force fetch. I am totally in agreement with people like Annette, mostly positive training, but appropriate corrections when needed. A lot of these so-called field trainers espousing the harsher methods don't even have a clue what positive training means.
So, be proud of what you've accomplished, and look forward to accomplishing so much more with your dogs.

I suppose I'm a field trainer because that's all I do. Harsher methods certainly sounds like pejorative language to me. And prejudice of that sort kinda indicates the one using the language doesn't even have a clue what we do in field training.

1. Already said I'm willing to learn from anyone who's successful at their sport. Don't pretend to know everything. Have read and gotten some clue about games other than mine.

2. Would like to reiterate that the harsher methods are not "positive" but are not ipso facto harsh. This is a fundamental error in logic. To wit:

My methods are "kind".
You do not use my methods.
Therefore your methods are not "kind".
That which is not kind is cruel.

Not to mention the error in logic that goes:

My methods are clever.
You do not use my methods.
Therefore you are not clever (haven't got a clue).

Yep.

[Annette47]

Enjoyed the debate. AFC amateur field champion. Meaning they were handled by an amateur. Most likely their owner. NFC national field champion. NAFC national amateur field champion.

Thanks! I actually knew AFC was for amateur but had a bad autocorrect, LOL. Went ahead and fixed it. Curious though - is amateur/professional status determined by whether you are paid to do it? And if you are a professional at one point, does that mean you can no longer handle your own dog as an “amateur” even though you are not paying yourself? And are the tests the same for both with just the competition being different or are the tests set up differently? Just kind of curious as to how it all works Love learning about different “games” as TuMicks calls it.

In Obedience there are no such thing as professional handlers, although there are professional trainers who teach classes, people almost always handle their own dogs. The only times I’ve seen otherwise was (for example) someone finishing a title on another person’s dog because the owner fell ill and couldn’t, etc - certainly not common though, and I don’t know anyone who has been paid to do it. Judges aren’t even allowed to hold another person’s dog, let alone run them, even if they are not judging at that particular trial - it’s considered a breach of ethics.

The main distinction between experienced and not in Obedience is that judges and people who have put an OTCH on a dog have to compete through the B classes the entire way - even if they are now competing with a different dog. Newbies can start in Novice A, but once you have titled a dog you have to start in Novice B, even if you did that title on a dog 30 years ago! The exercises are the same, but the calibre of competition is different, and the judging can be stricter in the B classes as the expectations might be higher. There shouldn’t be a difference, but the reality is there often is, but it depends on the individual judge. If you have put a title on a dog but not an OTCH, you would go Novice B, Open A, Utility A through UD and then if you wanted to try for a UDX or an OTCH you would do that from OpenB/UtilityB, where if you are a judge (must have put a UD on a dog at a minimum to apply though most are OTCH handlers) or have put an OTCH on a dog at any point, you have to go Novice B, Open B, Utility B for the titles.

[Sue]

I suppose I'm a field trainer because that's all I do. Harsher methods certainly sounds like pejorative language to me. And prejudice of that sort kinda indicates the one using the language doesn't even have a clue what we do in field training.

1. Already said I'm willing to learn from anyone who's successful at their sport. Don't pretend to know everything. Have read and gotten some clue about games other than mine.

2. Would like to reiterate that the harsher methods are not "positive" but are not ipso facto harsh. This is a fundamental error in logic. To wit:

My methods are "kind".
You do not use my methods.
Therefore your methods are not "kind".
That which is not kind is cruel.

Not to mention the error in logic that goes:

My methods are clever.
You do not use my methods.
Therefore you are not clever (haven't got a clue).

Yep.

Why do you think my comments were directed at you? They weren't, just so you know. You seem awfully touchy. Sit back, relax, enjoy the summer and your dogs.

[ZEKESMAN]

Annette47, I only run hunt tests but train with some field trial guys. So take my response for what it is worth. A pro has to wait 2 years without training for pay to get amateur status back. Pros and ams run the same test except the National Amateur which is once a year. I was at the National Amateur one year as it was only a few hours away from me. It was an eye opener as to the ability of the dogs. Another thing I found amusing was the pros getting the dogs off their truck, airing them, handing them over to the owner to run then collecting the dogs and putting them back on the truck.
Made me wonder who's dogs they really were.

[TuMicks]

I was at an Open stake where a well known pro was having a helper get his dogs off the truck and bring them to him. (It was a very long walk-up, the trucks and rigs were parked Waaaay down a dirt road.) The pro gets to the line, gives the dog's number to a judge and ALMOST called for the birds... when he figured out with horror that he was at the line with a National Field Champion rather than the young Qualified All Age dog (i.e., one with NO open points.) The judges were pretty cool about it and the pro apologized all over himself for it.

Sue:What makes you think that I took your points personally? I was simply pointing out errors in your logic. I'm sure you are as nice a person as I am (or better), and we both love our dogs to death, we wish each other super success in our disparate retriever games, and I truly hope we can continue a robust give and take in the ether for years to come.