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  1. #31
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    It is happening and there are successful field dogs out there who were trained with positive methods. I'm not saying it's easy or perfect or for everyone, just that it's possible, even at the higher levels. At one point field dogs were trained with buckshot, 2x4s and ass-whoopings. Did that work? (Seriously, did it?)

    I wonder how many experienced field trainers have actually tried it? Like, really tried it and not given up when they got frustrated? When they say it doesn't work, are they speaking from experience? And, is that experience a week, month, a few months, or the life of the dog? One dog? Two? Or more? Since all dogs are different, and your first dog is your training wheel dog, one dog would not be a good test subject. I'd really love to read a blog or something about this. It would be very interesting to me, regardless of the outcome. Do you know of anything?

    I stumbled upon a whole movement today by asking around to the Fenzi folks. There's a lot of thoughtful problem solving happening between smart, experienced people, many of who used to be FF/e-collar friendly. Books being written. Training courses being created. People thinking through issues, recognizing the problem, and working with their dog to fix it. It was pretty awesome. And, lots of crossover successful dogs with MH and UD titles (non-professional). So, that's exciting, at least for me!

    I find these things interesting as I am super curious about training and dog behavior. I like trying new things and thinking about things in different ways. I am definitely not an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" person and I am a firm believer that there is not just one way to do things. I love problem solving when it comes to my dog and have had some excellent conversations and training sessions with both my obedience trainer and field trainer. They ask me, "Why is he doing that?" because they know that I know my dog. They don't shut me down and say, "I have more titles than you therefore I am right so listen to me and do what I say!" It's why I love Denise Fenzi. She is incredibly thoughtful and takes the time to consider the situation and the dog. There's not just one way with her, and I love that. To me it means she thought it through.

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  3. #32
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    Zekesman, your response nails it for me--- thank you. Even if I only do JH (and obed, etc) w/my girls here, FF accomplishes so much in the way of molding that work ethic in my girls--- and btw, I've had some very sensitive ones over the years. I know of some pros who love the sensitive ones w/ "go" as it doesn't take much to mold them. With those, it's not an ear pinch and #4 level, rather it's more of an ear squeeze and maybe a 1.5 on the collar. Pressure is pressure.... If my parents had never put any pressure on me as a kid, I'd likely never have gotten as far in my professional life either. Think of FF as the "Running Start Program" (I believe that's what they call it now for
    high schoolers to go to college as Juniors etc). It didn't do me any harm 30 some years ago and I'd highly encourage other underchallenged bright HS students to do the same and knock some years off their education if possible. No different w/ dogs imo.

    IW, too bad Evan Graham isn't here (he's on a mission for the next year or so w/ his church). He makes it a point to call FF the "Trained Retrieve" in his SmartFetch/ SmartWorks series. I've used and recommended Evans' books for years.

    Anne (working on generation 6 CDX JH+ Tracking etc)

    PS, I think I'm going to call my prep schooling here "Running Start".

    Windycanyon,
    I too am an advocate of the works of Evan Graham and much of my own approach to FF is based on the methods used by both Evan Graham and Rex Carr.

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  5. #33
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    It is happening and there are successful field dogs out there who were trained with positive methods. I'm not saying it's easy or perfect or for everyone, just that it's possible, even at the higher levels. At one point field dogs were trained with buckshot, 2x4s and ass-whoopings. Did that work? (Seriously, did it?)

    I wonder how many experienced field trainers have actually tried it? Like, really tried it and not given up when they got frustrated? When they say it doesn't work, are they speaking from experience? And, is that experience a week, month, a few months, or the life of the dog? One dog? Two? Or more? Since all dogs are different, and your first dog is your training wheel dog, one dog would not be a good test subject. I'd really love to read a blog or something about this. It would be very interesting to me, regardless of the outcome. Do you know of anything?

    I stumbled upon a whole movement today by asking around to the Fenzi folks. There's a lot of thoughtful problem solving
    happening between smart, experienced people, many of who used to be FF/e-collar friendly. Books being written. Training courses being created. People thinking through issues, recognizing the problem, and working with their dog to fix it. It was pretty awesome. And, lots of crossover successful dogs with MH and UD titles (non-professional). So, that's exciting, at least for me!

    I find these things interesting as I am super curious about training and dog behavior. I like
    trying new things and thinking about things in different ways. I am definitely not an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" person and I am a firm believer that there is not just one way to do things. I love problem solving when it comes to my dog and have had some excellent conversations and training sessions with both my obedience trainer and field trainer. They ask me, "Why is he doing that?" because they know that I know my dog. They don't shut me down and say, "I have more titles than you therefore I am right so listen to me and do what I say!" It's why I love Denise Fenzi. She is incredibly thoughtful and takes the time to consider the situation and the dog. There's not just one way with her, and I love that. To me it means she thought it through.
    Labradorks,
    I think your arguments as to the validity of the numerous dogs competing and performing competitively at the highest levels of performance might hold more credibility if you were to support it other than by vague references made. As TuMicks has so eloquently alluded to, "show me the science". Are the methods results consistent and replicable? Misinformation can be a highly dangerous thing. Example; Dogs were once trained using buckshot??? Each projectile in a round of buckshot is approximately .32 caliber and would retain the ennergy at most distances fired at a dog to kill it outright. In fact, birdshot was at one time used to impart corrections of a more instantaneously timed nature, much prior to the advent of the modern day and much less invasive e-collar. One word, misused with the potential to paint a picture the way we want it to be seen, not really as it is. To say emphatically that FORCE FETCH techniques are highly painful and abusive to dogs, especially when utilized by trainers that know how to consistently achieve great results in dog after dog after dog whilst using very low levels of applied training pressure, is to paint a picture fueled by agenda.

    It might ve unteresting if some research were conducted that could differentiate between the levels of training related pressures endured by dogs that are Force Fetch conditioned, and those that are subjected to trainer after trainer using a plethora of "methods" with inconsistent results? Just my own feeling on the matter and one that is highly unlikely to change unless somebody can show me a better mousetrap.

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  7. #34
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Did the harsh methods of more than 35-40 years ago work? All you need do is watch National Field Championships of yesteryear (I'm sorry... can't find the link but I saw a black and white film, obviously filmed for some hunting show in the 1960's and it was narrated by Andy Devine). If you saw the work the dogs were doing and compared it to what they do today, the answer is that the old pre-collar methods worked at a very low level... especially the further away the dogs got from the line. And most dogs washed out.

    There has been a revolution in methods since then. As we've said... a very well trained dog is no longer something just for the rich and the entire Hunting Retriever movement is one of the proofs of that.

    I can honestly say that if one of the pro-clicker, pro-treat, anti-force, anti-e-collar people can consistently put MH's on their dogs before they're middle-aged (i.e., while the dogs still have a chance to run and pass 3 Master Nationals and get their Master National Hunter title) they definitely need to start communicating with the rest of us. Get them on this Board, please! I know for a fact that all of us would start adopting (i.e., ripping off) any method that was proven as good or better than what we're doing. These people could revolutionize the field sports once again. I'm not kidding. Get a couple of young dogs titled, get a web-site up, clips published, book and DVD marketed. They would find a willing audience. We are people who seriously do what works. We're wedded to results not our methods or agendas.

    I wonder how many experienced field trainers have actually tried it? Like, really tried it and not given up when they got frustrated? When they say it doesn't work, are they speaking from experience? And, is that experience a week, month, a few months, or the life of the dog? One dog? Two? Or more? Since all dogs are different, and your first dog is your training wheel dog, one dog would not be a good test subject. I'd really love to read a blog or something about this. It would be very interesting to me, regardless of the outcome. Do you know of anything?

    Why would we use other methods when we know what ours produce success? My dog is precious to me. I can't throw her out after I've spend a large % of her life in futility. I owe it to her to give her the best there is. It seems sort of calloused to experiment on her. It would not just be the handler getting frustrated, it would do the same to the dog. As to why not blog about failure... no one (in science) publishes negative results. There are a bazillion journals out there and you won't find a single article talking about statistically insignificant results.

    Anyway... if Fenzi et al., are willing to discuss application of their methods in field work, I think anyone on our board (can't speak for the other one...) will give them a respectful hearing. Honest.

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Did the harsh methods of more than 35-40 years ago work? All you need do is watch National Field Championships of yesteryear (I'm sorry... can't find the link but I saw a black and white film, obviously filmed for some hunting show in the 1960's and it was narrated by Andy Devine). If you saw the work the dogs were doing and compared it to what they do today, the answer is that the old pre-collar methods worked at a very low level... especially the further away the dogs got from the line. And most dogs washed out.

    There has been a revolution in methods since then. As we've said... a very well trained dog is no longer something just for the rich and the entire Hunting Retriever movement is one of the proofs of that.

    I can honestly say that if one of the pro-clicker, pro-treat, anti-force, anti-e-collar people can consistently put MH's on their dogs before they're middle-aged (i.e., while the dogs still have a chance to run and pass 3 Master Nationals and get their Master National Hunter title) they definitely need to start communicating with the rest of us. Get them on this Board, please! I know for a fact that all of us would start adopting (i.e., ripping off) any method that was proven as good or better than what we're doing. These people could revolutionize the field sports once again. I'm not kidding. Get a couple of young dogs titled, get a web-site up, clips published, book and DVD marketed. They would find a willing audience. We are people who seriously do what works. We're wedded to results not our methods or agendas.

    I wonder how many experienced field trainers have actually tried it? Like, really tried it and not given up when they got frustrated? When they say it doesn't work, are they speaking from experience? And, is that experience a week, month, a few months, or the life of the dog? One dog? Two? Or more? Since all dogs are different, and your first dog is your training wheel dog, one dog would not be a good test subject. I'd really love to read a blog or something about this. It would be very interesting to me, regardless of the outcome. Do you know of anything?

    Why would we use other methods when we know what ours produce success? My dog is precious to me. I can't throw her out after I've spend a large % of her life in futility. I owe it to her to give her the best there is. It seems sort of calloused to experiment on her. It would not just be the handler getting frustrated, it would do the same to the dog. As to why not blog about failure... no one (in science) publishes negative results. There are a bazillion journals out there and you won't find a single article talking about statistically insignificant results.

    Anyway... if Fenzi et al., are willing to discuss application of their methods in field work, I think anyone on our board (can't speak for the other one...) will give them a respectful hearing. Honest.
    I totaly agree. I would pay to attend a seminar, buy books etc. As I have done with Evan and others. Also when you talk of the highest levels of field work it's not a MH, its a FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC. please show us ONE that has been trained only positive.

    And for the training question. How would you train your dog to take a literal 20 degree cast at 200 yards without pressure?

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  11. #36
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    Another question. How long do you think it would take to teach this skill. Average dog training three times a week? And no I am not trying to be a jerk. I honestly would like to know and learn about alterne training methods.

  12. #37
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    You're right that the MH is not the highest level. The Field Trial titles are the gold standard. That's where you look to find the best breedings and Rocket Dog has a super FT heavy pedigree. Having said that... I would be very impressed if anyone got a MH on their dog using alternative methods. I would consider that a breakthrough event and would pay attention to what they had to say. Especially if they could do it on several dogs. That handler would be making a real contribution. It really would bring more people and dogs to our sport and that would be a good thing.

  13. #38
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    I agree.

  14. #39
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    I'd like the names of dogs/handlers running tests and trials right now using these purely positive training methods. Those of us who go to hunt tests and field trials can easily look them up and see where they'll be running. I always see a few new faces at the JH level, but to be honest, the SH and MH contenders are pretty much familiar faces from 10+ yrs ago, so I'm wondering who they are. I have pups w/ folks training and running at all levels btw, and I have to concur w/ the comments made above. No one is going to radically change methods that have worked for their dogs just for fun and experimentation. I've been around enough pro trainers to know that the best ones have some pretty big tool boxes--- it's not a one size fits all system for any one trainer just as most successful obed trainers have big tool boxes as well.

    I actually did go purely positive back in ~1997-1999, jumping on the late Patty Russo bus about that time. I can honestly say that my labs (and I've since talked to others w/ even small breeds) lost a year, at least, of progress. That "reward the positive, and ignore the negative" with a smart dog was clearly not a good tactic for anyone needing a reliable dog. That was enough of an experiment for me.
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  15. #40
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    Labradorks,
    I think your arguments as to the validity of the numerous dogs competing and performing competitively at the highest levels of performance might hold more credibility if you were to support it other than by vague references made. As TuMicks has so eloquently alluded to, "show me the science". Are the methods results consistent and replicable? Misinformation can be a highly dangerous thing. Example; Dogs were once trained using buckshot??? Each projectile in a round of buckshot is approximately .32 caliber and would retain the ennergy at most distances fired at a dog to kill it outright. In fact, birdshot was at one time used to impart corrections of a more instantaneously timed nature, much prior to the advent of the modern day and much less invasive e-collar. One word, misused with the potential to paint a picture the way we want it to be seen, not really as it is. To say emphatically that FORCE FETCH techniques are highly painful and abusive to dogs, especially when utilized by trainers that know how to consistently achieve great results in dog after dog after dog whilst using very low levels of applied training pressure, is to paint a picture fueled by agenda.

    It might ve unteresting if some research were conducted that could differentiate between the levels of training related pressures endured by dogs that are Force Fetch conditioned, and those that are subjected to trainer after trainer using a plethora of "methods" with inconsistent results? Just my own feeling on the matter and one that is highly unlikely to change unless somebody can show me a better mousetrap.

    Irishwhistler
    Sorry, my bad...birdshot.

    Where did I say that FF (when done right) was "highly painful and abusive"?

    Why would a dog go from trainer to trainer using a plethora of methods if they weren't FF'ed? Just because they aren't FF'ed doesn't mean training can't be clear and consistent. Positive training is just as methodical as any other training done right.

    It's OK if you don't want to change your mind, I'm not suggesting you do nor am I trying to talk you into it. Honestly, I really could not care less. I wish you success and happy dogs! The thing you don't seem to understand, is that I'm not against what you are doing, I'm just interested in other methods. The light-bulb came on when I realized that in my home and in training, the more positive I have become in my training, everyday stuff included, the less problems I have had in general.

    There are a few groups on FB as well as some Yahoogroups. One of the FB groups is run by Pippa Middleton the other one is Fenzi enthusiasts and you can't get into the latter unless you have attended one of her workshops or classes. These guys are getting pretty big with the positive training crowd as well, and I know of two dogs from a well-respected kennel who are working with them closely. My trainer rarely uses FF but he does use an e-collar for higher level work and his dogs are nationals level. A few other names have been mentioned so far: Lindsay Ridgeway, Robert Milner, and Jim Barry. The thread is pretty long, but those are the trainers I gleaned from it. There were a lot of other retriever breeds (goldens and springers) with non-pros, but I don't want to name them here as it's a closed group (the names I listed are pro trainers).
    Last edited by Labradorks; 07-05-2015 at 05:39 PM.

 



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