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  1. #91
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx&Emma View Post
    That completely understand what you are saying and would not have taken your comment as an insult. Unfortunately what was posted by windycanyon was meant as an insult and demeaning.
    And I do apologize for that. This conversation was targeted toward the competition folks I thought. So when suddenly there were digs at those of us who have been training competitively for a long time, with many dogs and several generations, to the point of being labeled as using pain to get our way, THAT tipped me over the edge. I love my dogs more than most would ever know, so the last thing I want is to hurt them. I do want them well trained and responsive when I need them to be, so I will use the amount of pressure to make sure they are.

    Again, I do apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings.
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  3. #92
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx&Emma View Post
    I realize this is not directed at me but I have to say I find this incredibly insulting. A CGC may mean little to you and be a one day non-event but to someone like me that has only begun this training journey with my current dog, it is a slap in the face. I worked hard with my dog to get his CGC, his TDI and we both love nose work and tracking. I have never done any of these things before and everyone has to start somewhere but it doesn't make any of us less than. I am sorry it means little to you but I am proud of the work I have done with Maxx.
    I honestly don't understand why this conversation had to take such a dark, ugly turn. I was really enjoying everything I was learning and reading and even commented how nice it was that it had been a civil conversation. The insults and plain mean spirited posts are a damn shame.
    I learned a lot from this thread and I agree, it's a shame. I'm actually kinda bummed about it as it was one of the better threads as of late.

    I've been told by a person on here several times that what I have done with my dogs is insignificant and means nothing and yeah, that sucks, because it means a lot to me. It does take a lot of work and time and a certain love for our pets, and for someone to get in front of the judge for the first time, with an animal who may or may not be cooperative, is really hard and takes guts! You want a place you can come where you can talk about your success and feel supported and encouraged. I have a good support group. While they win HITs and utility titles and national obedience awards, here I am, a novice, and when I get even my WC, I might as well have won the Master Nationals in their eyes. However, my close friends, family and co-workers just don't get it, so it's been nice to have this board to share both my triumphs as well as my frustrations throughout the day or in the middle of the night. It was, anyway.

    I just spent some time reading through the thread and did not see anything, up until the point of insult, that should have created any type of problem here. I don't get it either.

    Great job with your dog and keep going! BTW, what's next?

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  5. #93
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    This thread really saddens me. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't mean they are wrong. If what you are doing to train your dog meets your goals and objectives, then I'm very happy for you, even if I choose to train using different methods than you. Honestly all this really makes me wonder if people actually care about the dogs, or if they care more about the alphabet soup they can put after the dogs name.

    Train the way you want to train, but don't criticize someone who chooses to do it differently.

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  7. #94
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
    I don’t have a problem with your methods, if they are working for you. My point is just that I think there comes a point where those methods might be less effective (efficient maybe?) than some other methods. Doesn’t mean that your methods won’t work eventually, and if you are happy with the progress you are making, that is great. I am similarly pleased with the methods I use.

    By the way, if the dogs are flat and unhappy in the ring, then they aren’t being trained properly no matter whether you use corrections or not. Chloe (and you can see it from a video I posted of her working Utility in the Agility/Obedience forum) is always upbeat and happy while working, as are all of the dogs we train with. The key is for corrections to be both rare and deserved. The dogs know when they are being corrected unfairly and will resent it, but if the correction is done properly and for the right reason, they accept it without problems and without detriment to their attitudes. 90% of what we do is upbeat and positive though, so while we do use corrections, we use them rarely. I think it’s unfair to characterize balanced training as resulting in unhappy dogs ... all methods have good/bad instructors who can have good/bad results.
    I have no agenda but enjoying the ride and especially the process. My dog isn't even two; we have plenty of time. With the positive methods, I have taught my dogs things quicker than the other methods I was using previously. Not one method works for every dog or handler, I agree. The Kohler method works, but I prefer not to use it. Same with FF. It works, but is not my preference. Positive training works, but is not your preference. The dogs running utility with perfect scores and the more than occasional HITs from my facility are 5 - 7 years old. That does not feel out of line to me or like it took too long? But maybe I am wrong. I didn't say that all balanced training results in unhappy dogs; but I have seen zero flat dogs in positive training, which is one of the reasons why I made the decision to go all positive. I have seen your video and your dog looks happy to be there. I have seen a lot of before and after videos in my positive training groups and the transformations are amazing. I have videos of my own dog now that I would love to share, but don't really need to listen to anyone chiding or insulting.

  8. #95
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I'm grateful to Irishwhistler for bringing up the issue of force training even though it feels like heavily plowed ground. I will admit that those of us who use what is referred to as "traditional" methods of field training are still being criticized for what our progenitors in Field Trialing were doing 50 years ago.

    If we seem defensive at times, please forgive.

    Back in the late 1980's our family had moved to a new city and I had a still pretty young male lab who was a Field Trial washout. He was just hanging around the house and so we both went to an Obedience Club's "beginner's class". He was wearing a simple link collar (like all the other dogs there). He was a big guy. So when we were heeling around the room in a group, and he went to sniff some other dog, I popped him and said "HEEL". Oh. My. GAWD!!! You'd have thought I'd pulled out a chainsaw and cut his leg off. The "instructor" told me that they didn't condone that sort of thing in the name-withheld-obedience-club gatherings. I was so humiliated. The other people in the room got the message... ONLY GOOD DOGS AND SWEET PEOPLE need apply. I think this was back in the hey-day of Barbara Woodhouse's "No Bad Dogs" TV series.

    We field folk use e-collars and are often heavily criticized for it. Even though (swear to you) we can hold the receiver in our hands and hit the button and not necessarily feel it as pain, any "shock collar" is considered EVIL. (Consider, if you will, that our naked hands are much more loaded with sensory fibers than a dog's heavily furred neck.) Even though electronic fences have saved any number of dogs' lives, the use of an e-collar is still viewed by many as cruel. On one dog, electrical stimulation is considered a safety issue. On another it's labeled abuse.

    As a citizen, I've volunteered to sit on advisory committees to review proposed changes in the animal codes of our county. You honestly cannot imagine the types of people who lobby our legislators and regulators to make many aspects of our dog sports illegal because it's "cruelty."

    So... please understand if we act somewhat touchy. But as retriever enthusiasts, we all have way more in common than many would imagine.

    Just sayin'

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  10. #96
    Senior Dog ChoppersDad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I'm grateful to Irishwhistler for bringing up the issue of force training even though it feels like heavily plowed ground. I will admit that those of us who use what is referred to as "traditional" methods of field training are still being criticized for what our progenitors in Field Trialing were doing 50 years ago.

    If we seem defensive at times, please forgive.

    Back in the late 1980's our family had moved to a new city and I had a still pretty young male lab who was a Field Trial washout. He was just hanging around the house and so we both went to an Obedience Club's "beginner's class". He was wearing a simple link collar (like all the other dogs there). He was a big guy. So when we were heeling around the room in a group, and he went to sniff some other dog, I popped him and said "HEEL". Oh. My. GAWD!!! You'd have thought I'd pulled out a chainsaw and cut his leg off. The "instructor" told me that they didn't condone that sort of thing in the name-withheld-obedience-club gatherings. I was so humiliated. The other people in the room got the message... ONLY GOOD DOGS AND SWEET PEOPLE need apply. I think this was back in the hey-day of Barbara Woodhouse's "No Bad Dogs" TV series.

    We field folk use e-collars and are often heavily criticized for it. Even though (swear to you) we can hold the receiver in our hands and hit the button and not necessarily feel it as pain, any "shock collar" is considered EVIL. (Consider, if you will, that our naked hands are much more loaded with sensory fibers than a dog's heavily furred neck.) Even though electronic fences have saved any number of dogs' lives, the use of an e-collar is still viewed by many as cruel. On one dog, electrical stimulation is considered a safety issue. On another it's labeled abuse.

    As a citizen, I've volunteered to sit on advisory committees to review proposed changes in the animal codes of our county. You honestly cannot imagine the types of people who lobby our legislators and regulators to make many aspects of our dog sports illegal because it's "cruelty."

    So... please understand if we act somewhat touchy. But as retriever enthusiasts, we all have way more in common than many would imagine.

    Just sayin'
    I feel your pain... I have a lot of respect for you professionals, just show the same respect to others...

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  12. #97
    Senior Dog Maxx&Emma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppersDad View Post
    I feel your pain... I have a lot of respect for you professionals, just show the same respect to others...
    Amen, respect each other. It really isn't that hard.
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  13. #98
    Senior Dog Maxx&Emma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I learned a lot from this thread and I agree, it's a shame. I'm actually kinda bummed about it as it was one of the better threads as of late.

    I've been told by a person on here several times that what I have done with my dogs is insignificant and means nothing and yeah, that sucks, because it means a lot to me. It does take a lot of work and time and a certain love for our pets, and for someone to get in front of the judge for the first time, with an animal who may or may not be cooperative, is really hard and takes guts! You want a place you can come where you can talk about your success and feel supported and encouraged. I have a good support group. While they win HITs and utility titles and national obedience awards, here I am, a novice, and when I get even my WC, I might as well have won the Master Nationals in their eyes. However, my close friends, family and co-workers just don't get it, so it's been nice to have this board to share both my triumphs as well as my frustrations throughout the day or in the middle of the night. It was, anyway.

    I just spent some time reading through the thread and did not see anything, up until the point of insult, that should have created any type of problem here. I don't get it either.

    Great job with your dog and keep going! BTW, what's next?
    Thank you, that means a lot to me. As for what is next, I need to work on my confidence! Maxx's trainer has urged me repeatedly to put Maxx in trials for nose work and tracking. I don't care so much about the titles but he loves doing both. We will continue our therapy work, Maxx loves working with kids more than anything. We are working with our trainer for CGC and TDI cert training of others and that is fun. One of these days we will probably try a nose work and/or tracking trial and see how it goes. And I definitely want to attend a HT and FT, I am very interested to see how that all works. As long as Maxx continues to have fun and enjoy learning we will continue and see where it takes us. I have enjoyed this journey we have been on for almost 4 years. If you would have asked me even 5 years ago if I could see myself going past basic obedience I would have laughed! Now I see endless possibilities and I am so greatful for the awesome partner I love and have been blessed with.
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  14. #99
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx&Emma View Post
    Thank you, that means a lot to me. As for what is next, I need to work on my confidence! Maxx's trainer has urged me repeatedly to put Maxx in trials for nose work and tracking. I don't care so much about the titles but he loves doing both. We will continue our therapy work, Maxx loves working with kids more than anything. We are working with our trainer for CGC and TDI cert training of others and that is fun. One of these days we will probably try a nose work and/or tracking trial and see how it goes. And I definitely want to attend a HT and FT, I am very interested to see how that all works. As long as Maxx continues to have fun and enjoy learning we will continue and see where it takes us. I have enjoyed this journey we have been on for almost 4 years. If you would have asked me even 5 years ago if I could see myself going past basic obedience I would have laughed! Now I see endless possibilities and I am so greatful for the awesome partner I love and have been blessed with.
    Denise Fenzi has a class for handlers with ring nerves. If you are interested I can ask around to see if anyone has taken it and has feedback. My trainer is hosting a hypnosis clinic for ring nerves. I'm not going, but it'll be interesting to hear about.

    Sounds like you guys have some big plans. Pretty amazing where things take you!

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  16. #100
    Senior Dog Maxx&Emma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    Denise Fenzi has a class for handlers with ring nerves. If you are interested I can ask around to see if anyone has taken it and has feedback. My trainer is hosting a hypnosis clinic for ring nerves. I'm not going, but it'll be interesting to hear about.

    Sounds like you guys have some big plans. Pretty amazing where things take you!
    I would absolutely be thrilled with any info you can get, thank you for offering!
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