Shall the Labrador Retreiver be Jack of all Trades and Master of None?

[Labradorks]

I am wondering if bloodhounds (or any hounds, for that matter) show up in the obedience ring at the more advanced level. Maybe someone would have the answer to that.

Gentleman's hunt:

I stipulate that FT's are extreme in terms of distances... but conceptually, what they do makes a lot of sense.

Classically, N. American FT's are designed around the notion of hunting on flyways where the shooter is probably at some static point. (Like a camouflaged blind.) Now, this is not what FT's are in the UK. Our FT's are also more water-centric. Much more so than FT's in the UK.

So start there. Shall the Labrador Retriever do only what is done in the UK? Stated another way... shall we determine that Labrador Retrievers not be tested against N. American hunters' needs?

To which, many will say... "but FT's are NOTHING like hunting." Yes. See above.

If we answer "yes" to testing dogs against N. American hunters' needs, then let's talk about that.

* Should a dog be steady? (Sure)
* Should a dog be able to mark and remember more than one fall? (Sure... he might be retrieving birds for more than one hunter.)
* Should a dog be able to be handled to a bird he didn't see go down? (Of course. If a dog is on his way to a retrieve when other birds fly over, he may never see additional birds as they go down.)
* Should a dog be able to be handled to a bird he never saw, PAST one he marked, one he KNOWs is there. (Of course, you wound a bird. It's headed for tulles... you want the dog to get that one first, then the dead ones he saw go down.)
* Should a dog take the most efficient route to the retrieves? (Yes. It's probably faster. In addition, a big loopy line or hunt, disturbs cover... and the birds just may go elsewhere that day if you allow the dog to do that.)

If this describes how Americans/Canadians hunt... then, should we be able to test our Labs against these standard concepts?

I submit that labs of all sorts can be taught to do these things. That would be a dog for a(n) American Gentleman's hunt. You may not want a FT bred dog to accompany you to your duck blind. That's OK. If your dog can do that, then you have a great dog no matter what his genotype or phenotype.

But be sure. These are very tough concepts. In order to do them even (or maybe especially) at shorter distances, takes a tough and determined dog... one who will do ANYthing to get the bird. At shorter distances, the angles between marks may be tighter. At shorter distances, scenting conditions can be very confusing. At shorter distances in heavy cover, the less determined dog could cave in to return to a fall that was only a matter of feet from the line to the bird he should be getting.

I am not advocating for field bred labs. I am just trying to query (1) what people are talking about when they describe a Gentleman's Hunt and (2) if we should train and test dogs to do skills the N. American Gentleman may need in a working retriever.

And yes... FT distances are crazy long. I'm clear about that.

In my neck of the woods, we see the very occasional beagle in obedience. The beagles can do very well, but they are challenging. There are a couple bassets that do rally sometimes but they rarely qualify.

I would have to go on an actual hunt to answer the rest of your questions and I'm going to! Hopefully next fall, but it might have the be the following fall due to scheduling. FWIW though, my trainer's dog went on a guided hunt and didn't miss a bird! Everything from Canadian Geese to pheasants (or maybe chuckars -- I can't remember). Brought back, I am not kidding, 24 birds! She would not pass a field trial though -- hasn't been trained past probably the SH level. 30 lb conformation bred toller with a CH that's never seen an e-collar or been ff'ed. I think this question is probably best answered by someone who does a lot of hunting AND field trials. Do you hunt?

[TuMicks]

Cool! And if you (or anyone) hears about a retriever WC event within driving distance of Northern NV, I'm interested in attending. (I honestly thought they had them in Truckee or Nevada City or someplace around here... but can't find any listed.) I wish they'd use Entryexpress.net!!!

[windycanyon]

I am wondering if bloodhounds (or any hounds, for that matter) show up in the obedience ring at the more advanced level. Maybe someone would have the answer to that.

Gentleman's hunt:

I stipulate that FT's are extreme in terms of distances... but conceptually, what they do makes a lot of sense.

Classically, N. American FT's are designed around the notion of hunting on flyways where the shooter is probably at some static point. (Like a camouflaged blind.) Now, this is not what FT's are in the UK. Our FT's are also more water-centric. Much more so than FT's in the UK.

So start there. Shall the Labrador Retriever do only what is done in the UK? Stated another way... shall we determine that Labrador Retrievers not be tested against N. American hunters' needs?

To which, many will say... "but FT's are NOTHING like hunting." Yes. See above.

If we answer "yes" to testing dogs against N. American hunters' needs, then let's talk about that.

* Should a dog be steady? (Sure)
* Should a dog be able to mark and remember more than one fall? (Sure... he might be retrieving birds for more than one hunter.)
* Should a dog be able to be handled to a bird he didn't see go down? (Of course. If a dog is on his way to a retrieve when other birds fly over, he may never see additional birds as they go down.)
* Should a dog be able to be handled to a bird he never saw, PAST one he marked, one he KNOWs is there. (Of course, you wound a bird. It's headed for tulles... you want the dog to get that one first, then the dead ones he saw go down.)
* Should a dog take the most efficient route to the retrieves? (Yes. It's probably faster. In addition, a big loopy line or hunt, disturbs cover... and the birds just may go elsewhere that day if you allow the dog to do that.)

If this describes how Americans/Canadians hunt... then, should we be able to test our Labs against these standard concepts?

I submit that labs of all sorts can be taught to do these things. That would be a dog for a(n) American Gentleman's hunt. You may not want a FT bred dog to accompany you to your duck blind. That's OK. If your dog can do that, then you have a great dog no matter what his genotype or phenotype.

But be sure. These are very tough concepts. In order to do them even (or maybe especially) at shorter distances, takes a tough and determined dog... one who will do ANYthing to get the bird. At shorter distances, the angles between marks may be tighter. At shorter distances, scenting conditions can be very confusing. At shorter distances in heavy cover, the less determined dog could cave in to return to a fall that was only a matter of feet from the line to the bird he should be getting.

I am not advocating for field bred labs. I am just trying to query (1) what people are talking about when they describe a Gentleman's Hunt and (2) if we should train and test dogs to do skills the N. American Gentleman may need in a working retriever.

And yes... FT distances are crazy long. I'm clear about that.

There was a fantastic Blue Tick here in C WA a couple yrs ago. Pretty sure ended up an OTCh.

[Tanya]

LOL.... Actually Envy being one of those 50/50 blends (w/ a penchant toward FAST) surprised me w/in about 2 hrs of making that post w/ puppy #1.... a 19oz choc boy born IN HER CRATE while I thought she was resting (ie not even a peep and I was in my office on the other side of the wall)! Her temp had dropped but normally they start in to obvious labor and she was cool as a cuke. I had just taken her for a short drive to intercept some last minute supplies from my one field friend, pottied her, then put her back into her crate where she wanted to be. Final count is 7 and everyone is doing great. I wish all whelps were so easy and can't remember being that rested ever while whelping! And I got to watch my football team (MSU) play/ win today as well.

I think the puppies are adorable at this age, but I also think manatees are cute.

Congrats!
Wonder if that first pup will love the crate more than the others

[Annette47]

I am wondering if bloodhounds (or any hounds, for that matter) show up in the obedience ring at the more advanced level. Maybe someone would have the answer to that.

They do, but are very few and far between. I know someone who used to show a bloodhound, and I’ve seen the occasional Black and Tan, same with daschunds, but for the most part hounds are very rare when you get to the advanced levels. The occasional individual can do well, but as a group, they are not the most suited for the sport.

[TuMicks]

If you leave out schutzhund and herding, is there any dog related endeavor at which the lab isn't great?