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  1. #11
    Best Friend Retriever outrag's Avatar
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    Fantastic amount of information here, especially how the gut contributes to so many issues beyond the gut.

    I'd like to ask about allergies, which seem to be more and more prominent. I have a dog who is 14 months old, and he has had a bad month of May. Itching and biting everywhere and has shown some of these symptoms since I got him a year ago. He's also recently doing some weird looking around with his head like something is biting him or has bitten him. He's been to the Vet and is on some meds to address his discomfort and any secondary skin infection. I would really like to get to the root cause of this since he's so young and otherwise healthy and strong. I have been doing various limited ingredient food diets with minimal results so not sure if it's food, environment, some other genetic component etc..

    Thank you
    Bob
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  2. #12
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    Blood work! I think most vets wait until a dog is senior to start recommending it. I lost my first lab 5 years ago to liver failure. He was only 7. I had never done a blood panel on him because no vet he'd seen had ever recommended it. If I had started doing regular blood work on him, say maybe at the age of 5 or so, I might have been able to save him. I know it adds $100 or more to the annual exam cost, and some people won't want to pay it, but at least give them the recommendation.

  3. #13
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    Lymphangiectasia is a disease that has inflammatory component. I will attach a nice article by Karen Becker who is a holistic vet and this article discusses the disease and some options beyond standard conventional treatment. Good luck. Is My Pet at Risk for Lymphangiectasia?

  4. #14
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    Hi Bob. I suspect allergies are the most common, persistent problem we see in dogs and people. The reason is that our conventional approach focuses on eliminating symptoms. No one likes being kept awake while the dog scratches all night. I may have posted information about this before but I will do a quick rundown about the source of the problem. From a conventional (regular vet) if we have a dog with allergies, there are two options: 1. treat symptoms as needed 2. Allergy test to eliminate allergens if possible, desensitize if can't. The standard approach for treating symptoms is to use something to suppress the immune system (steroids, Atopica, Apoquel), antihistamines and antibiotics if the skin is infected. Testing can be done with blood test for antibody detection, skin testing by a dermatologist or the new saliva test. Desensitization is done with either injections or oral medication under the tongue.

    The problem with this approach is that nothing addresses the underlying problem which is an imbalanced immune system. Drugs will temporarily suppress the overactive immune system and if used for long periods of time have the potential for very severe side effects (cancer, etc.). Food allergies is a problem because if you do determine what foods your dog is allergic to and make a change, within 2 years it will likely develop an allergy to the new food. This is why there are so many "novel" diets like kangaroo, rabbit, etc. Antibiotics are deleterious because not only do they kill the infection in the skin (usually a Staph pyoderma) but they destroy the normal gut bacteria that are essential for immune health.

    There is a whole lot of new information about how to get to the root of the problem but basically it focus on the fact that allergy dogs have over-active (hyperimmune) immune systems. This comes from two major factors. First and foremost is inappropriate diet. Most commercial pet foods (heat processed kibble) create inflammation in the gut and in time the gut becomes more permeable and incorrectly processed food enters into the pet's system. These are called Macrolides and the immune system identifies these as foreign invaders and develops antibodies against them. This is how food allergies develop. Also, the immune system becomes way too sensitive and starts to react and develop antibodies against anything that is coming into the body. If the pet is exposed to seasonal allergies (pollens, etc) then it will develop allergies to them as well. Soon, you have a pet that is developing allergies to lots of things and then the symptoms appear.

    The reason why most pets start showing symptoms between 1-2 years is because the first time they get exposed to seasonal allergens they produce antibodies but don't react. However, the next year when the pollens enter the dog, it has antibodies ready to attack and the symptoms appear. Dogs that show allergy symptoms that are under 1.5 years are usually reacting to something in their diet.

    The other problem is over-vaccinating. Most vaccines are modified live viruses and these viruses have to be kept alive in the lab in order for the company to make the vaccine. These companies have to feed animal protein to the viruses and when the dog is vaccinated, the dog's immune system not only develops antibody to the virus but also to the protein source that the virus was fed. If the virus had been fed beef, the dog will likely develop antibody to beef and so on.

    So, if we want to eliminate allergies we start by fixing the gut as the gut is responsible for about 85% of the immune system function. We do this by feeding a healthy, balanced diet that is not inflammatory in nature. Then, we focus on treating the damaged gut wall. I like to use bone broth as the collagen in the broth is great for gut wall repair. I also like to use a good probiotic and digestive enzyme. I will also use some natural products to kill the yeast overgrowth that is another secondary problem with inflamed gut. I use grapefruit seed extract and Cat's Claw. Both kill Candida and reduce gut inflammation. Obviously, I do not over-vaccinate.

    This protocol takes time, depending on how long the dog has had the problems, but at your dog's age, it shouldn't take long at all. Then, you won't have to deal with the allergy situation once and for all. Hope this helps.

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dennis Thomas, DVM For This Useful Post:

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  6. #15
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    I sympathize with you as blood work is routinely used in hopes of picking up early diseases before symptoms arise. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. I had a dog come into my clinic several years ago that was very ill. We did blood work on him and everything was normal. He ended up having liver cancer and died. Another example is kidney disease in cats. Kidney disease kills one in three cats so obviously it is a very common problem. The primary blood work flag to detect kidney disease is called the creatinine. It is the only lab test that is specific for kidney disease. Unfortunately, 75% of the mass of the kidneys has to be diseased before the creatinine moves at all. By the time it shows up on the blood panel, we have a cat that has less than 25% of its kidneys working. Another example is having blood work as a requirement for using Rimadyl. Rimadyl, a very commonly used NSAID, came out about 25 years ago and Norden, the company that released the drug told us vets that there were no adverse effects. Oops. Soon, dogs right and left were coming down with acute liver disease. These dogs were very ill and would likely die unless the Rimadyl was removed. Norden then told the vets that the dog should have its liver checked before putting it on the drug. We still do this.

    The problem is that the reaction to Rimadyl is a idiosyncratic reaction to the drug. This is a very toxic reaction and impossible to detect until there is an exposure to the drug. This means that if a blood panel is taken and the liver tests were normal, that is not an indication that the dog won't react to the drug when given. If a dog gets Rimadyl and does not react, then a blood test is not needed.

    Blood work is very poor for diagnosing GI problems. There are no blood tests that are specific for gut diseases. At best, they can suggest that there might be a problem.

    The wise vet will use blood work, as well as other ancillary testing to confirm his or her diagnosis. Unfortunately, many clinicians these days rely on the testing to make a diagnosis, often leading to misdiagnosis. A classic example is Cushing Disease. I have seen so many dogs that were presented to their vet because they were sick. The vet does blood work and finds out the dog most likely has Cushing's Disease. This might be the case, but it is likely a coincidental finding. Cushing's disease was not responsible for the dog being sick. If the vet starts treatment for Cushings, the dog will probably get very ill because of the side effects of the drug. In this situation, the blood work misled the vet and ended up hurting the pet.

    We have to be very careful making interpretation with blood work as there are very few diseases that can be diagnosed solely using blood work. Hope some of this helps.

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  8. #16
    Best Friend Retriever outrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Thomas, DVM View Post
    Hi Bob. I suspect allergies are the most common, persistent problem we see in dogs and people.

    So, if we want to eliminate allergies we start by fixing the gut as the gut is responsible for about 85% of the immune system function. We do this by feeding a healthy, balanced diet that is not inflammatory in nature. Then, we focus on treating the damaged gut wall. I like to use bone broth as the collagen in the broth is great for gut wall repair. I also like to use a good probiotic and digestive enzyme. I will also use some natural products to kill the yeast overgrowth that is another secondary problem with inflamed gut. I use grapefruit seed extract and Cat's Claw. Both kill Candida and reduce gut inflammation. Obviously, I do not over-vaccinate.

    This protocol takes time, depending on how long the dog has had the problems, but at your dog's age, it shouldn't take long at all. Then, you won't have to deal with the allergy situation once and for all. Hope this helps.
    Thank you for this incredibly useful information. I want to get to the root cause of this issue and not play the merry go round of vet visits, meds, food changes, etc for the next decade.

    Do you have more specifics or can point me to another post that captures the protocol of how to fix the gut? For example what is a non-inflammatory diet? Where can I obtain the probiotics and digestive enzymes you are referring to, as well as the grapefruit seed extract and cat's claw?

    Thank you very much.
    Bob
    Griffin growing up!

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    Griffin Male Black Lab 03/14/16 -

    Yukon My Wonderful Yellow Lab 11/20/06 - 03/12/19 Will cherish the memories!!!!
    My Precious Tanner Boy 11/25/02 - 6/25/15 Will miss you always!!!!

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  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    Cancer. How to prevent it? How to catch it early?
    This!
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Thomas, DVM View Post
    Thanks for replying. You might read the post below for some general information because, as you know, cancer is usually an old-dog problem. Over 90% of my work is on senior pets because of the same problems that you are dealing with. Unfortunately, by the time I get them, a lot of them and their illnesses are too far gone for me to do more than improve quality of life until the end. Not that that is a bad thing but we would all like our pets to heal and return to normal health and well being. The best advice that I can give you for old Labs with arthritis is to feed a diet that does not promote inflammation and search for products that are natural anti-inflammatory in nature. Fortunately, as there is an enormous movement towards natural treatments, more and more become available. I will give you some recommendations that I use on my senior Labs with arthritis. Along with a healthy diet that does not promote inflammation, I like to use joint supplements that contain glucosamine and chondroitin. I like the product called Cetyl-M because it has some natural products in it and the chondroitin is processed so that it passes the gut. Fish oil helps with inflammation. I like to give 2 capsules daily for dogs with arthritis. A lot of attention has been given to digestive enzymes in dealing with arthritis in pets. There is a product called Wobenzyme that get good reviews and many of my patients use it. I really like T-Relief for Arthritis. This is a human homeopathy remedy used for arthritis. It is also commonly used for dogs. Several years ago, there was a comparative study done in England that compared it with Rimadyl for controlling pain with arthritic dogs. After 30 days, T-Relief performed as well as Rimadyl and since it is homeopathic, there are absolutely no side effects. All of my senior Labs have been on this product. Turmeric is getting a lot of attention with arthritis as well as cancer and of course CBD is the latest if you are in a state that you can get it. Since I am in Washington state, we can get it and several of my older patients are doing very well with using it for chronic pain, cancer and controlling seizures. Hope some of this helps. Good luck
    This is interesting to me because we give all our dogs joint supplements with glucosamine and chondroitin, as well as fish oil from an early age and the only one who’s had cancer (so far - knock wood!) was the one we took in as a senior (so didn’t get the same supplements as a younger dog). Not necessarily causative, but certainly suggestive ...
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  12. #19
    Senior Dog Meeps83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outrag View Post
    Thank you for this incredibly useful information. I want to get to the root cause of this issue and not play the merry go round of vet visits, meds, food changes, etc for the next decade.

    Do you have more specifics or can point me to another post that captures the protocol of how to fix the gut? For example what is a non-inflammatory diet? Where can I obtain the probiotics and digestive enzymes you are referring to, as well as the grapefruit seed extract and cat's claw?

    Thank you very much.
    Bob
    And recommended products with doses!

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  14. #20
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    Hi Bob. I am always reluctant to give product names on forums because a lot of people think I might have some affiliate status with them. I do not. I only make suggestions that have worked for my patients and that is all I can offer. However, this information is accepted by most holistic vets and repairing damaged gut is not only being focused on in pets but in people as well. As far as diet, we need to avoid heat-processed commercial food. This mean kibble and canned food. Yes, I am saying that all kibble is unhealthy for your pet. When I give talks about pet nutrition, I always start by asking people to imagine what their health would be like if they only ate processed food. That said, it is very easy to make pet food at home and there are a lot of good diet recipes on the internet. Basically, it is a meat based diet with some veggies and a couple of supplements. Some people feed pet food that is prepared fresh and then frozen. These diets are in the freezer at the pet store. However, they can get pretty pricey with Labs due to their size. I have made our dogs food for the past eight years and they thrive on it. I would be happy to help if you need. It takes me about 20 minutes to make the food and I put it in the fridge and it last one week. I have two big dogs.

    As far as supplements, I use Dr. Mercola's digestive enzymes and probiotics for pets and the grapefruit seed extract and cat;s claw can be obtained at any health food store or online. For a 65 pound Lab, I would put 3-4 drops of GSE on a full dish of food. Cat's claw will be for humans, so you would equate one human adult as an 85 pound dog. Just need to extrapolate using that formula. My dogs get one capsule twice a day. I also give each of them 1 tbsp of coconut oil on their food as well.

    Oh, yeah. I recommend feeding the dog food raw and make the transition from kibble to raw very slowly. I recommend dividing the feeding into three feedings. Give kibble the first two feedings and the fresh food the last feeding. Do this for about a week or 10 days watching for GI upset such as diarrhea or loss of appetite. If all is well after 10 days, replace the second kibble feeding with the fresh food for another 10 days and if all is well, replace the last kibble feeding with the fresh and then either feed once or twice a day. I like to give dogs raw bones (large enough not to swallow) to chew as there are many benefits for that besides keeping the teeth clean. The old advice to give kibble to keep the teeth clean is a myth. Hope this helps.

 



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