Socialization & Almost 15 wo, No vaccs yet. Does anyone vacc at home?

[brianosaur]

This a kind of a two part thread and I am a first time dog owner.

Boomer will be 15wo on Tuesday. After much arduous contemplation and discussion with our breeder, I have elected to give him zero vaccines so far. He has not left our fenced property since he came home at 8 weeks. I have elected to forgo the 8-12 weeks off-property 'socialization window' in liu of his health and any chance of him getting parvo or distemper. My thought was I would rather have a scaredy-dog then a dead one.

He has been to a vet only once at 8 weeks old. He had no worms and was given a clean bill of health.
I called six vets in my area and they all flat out refused to give any vaccs that were monovalent - whether I purchased them or not. They all insisted on a 7in1 or 5in1 vac. Also, several wanted to follow with lepto & lymes.

Without getting into the how come's, why's and a divisive vaccine debate (please don't hijack) - I have chosen to do a monovalent Parvo vacc and then a Distemper/Adeno (yes I know its not monovalent) at home next week.

• Does anyone vacc at home? How many days should I wait between these two vaccinations?
  

On another note reguarding socialization, Boomer is a very friendly, playful LR. Of the 20+ people he has met so far, he's taken kindly to everyone. He has no problem with people holding, petting, playing or touching him anywhere on his body at any time. He has has fantastic bite inhibition since he was 10wo. He shows zero resource guarding. I can nudge his snout out of his food bowl with my face and he only want to nudge his way back in. We've done a whole bunch of noise desensitization, as well as plenty of introductions to many objects, textures, and experiences here at home. (tubes, boards, boxes, ropes, logs, toys, wheelbarrow rides, ect.)

• Do you believe that keeping him at home this long is going to really affect his overall behavior when he does venture outside our property? I mean isn't the primary purpose is getting him used to people?

I wouldn't think he's ever going to have a problem with new folks, and I would doubt going to a regular park (not dog) for the first time at 18 or 20wo is going to be much of an issue. He seems to take well to everything so far. I just hope I didn't blow it.

• Do labs really need to 'BE' hyper-socialized? Or is it much more of a concern for smaller dogs and working breeds?

Thanks in advance

[Labradorks]

I'm having a hard time getting on board with your program because I think that it's extreme. As you are on a message board asking strangers about a vaccination schedule, I also think that perhaps you are ill prepared or don't quite understand what you're doing. Please do not be offended by that statement, I don't mean to come off rude, but my point is, if you have a program that you believe in regarding your puppy's health, you need to know what you are doing. You should be working on this under a guidance of a veterinarian. You said you've spoken with a few -- have you tried a holistic vet?

I'm a believer in all things in moderation. I've yet to meet anyone whose dog died of vaccinations as a puppy, which does not mean that it cannot happen, but it is very rare. What is NOT rare, are behavior issues with dogs -- yes, Labs -- due to lack of socialization as a youngster, which is very difficult, often impossible, to overcome. Worst case scenario is that you have a fear-biter on your hands. Dogs who are not socialized off of their property can also develop territorial issues. Some dogs with lack of socialization are not fearful or aggressive but very overstimulated with new experiences to the point where they are very difficult to be around. It depends on your Lab's temperament.

If you choose to stay on this route, I would highly suggest going to other people's homes to socialize. As long as their pets are vaccinated or don't ever leave the house, their homes should be just as safe as yours. Clearly, if they have a dog, you'll want it to be good with other dogs, especially with puppies. Most training facilities are safe as well (vet them first), but your puppy may not be allowed due to your lack of vaccinations. As a first time dog owner you NEED to get your puppy to class, so as soon as it's safe and they will let you in, run, don't walk, to the nearest (best) dog training facility.

Labs are a working breed and their temperaments vary greatly. It all depends on what type of Lab you have, their lines, etc. Either way, they need socialization. To assume that Labs don't bite or are all one way or another is very naive. I ran a Lab rescue and saw plenty of these things due to bad breeding, bad training, and/or lack of socialization.

Finally, please do not stick your face in your dog's dish. If you are trying to work on your dog not being food aggressive, there are other ways -- better ways. Sticking your hands, face, etc. in his bowl are not one of those ways. In fact, that's a good way to get bitten eventually. You're just pushing him by annoying him, not training him, and that can be dangerous.

[Charlotte K.]

Is your breeder local and available to help you? In my opinion, if you have not already ordered the vaccines, and maybe even if you have, I would go with a high quality distemper and parvo vaccine, such as Nobivac. Does the breeder not vaccinate? Or did he already have a Neopar parvo vaccine? The adenovirus could be given later.

I have had vets agree to administer my own Nobivac vaccines. Even in the Cavaliers, I generally let them booster with one or more five in one doses, which is usually only four in one, as adenovirus covers two diseases.

Do you have any medical background for giving the shots? Are you prepared with supplies and knowledge in the unlikely emergency event of a reaction?

I would not give off brand vaccines, such as can be bought in a farm store. What vaccines are you getting and where are you getting them?

[Charlotte K.]

I have done rescue since 1986. Yes, unsocialized Labs can bite. You need an experienced trainer and vet. There are many good and holistic resources on Long Island for vet care and training. A vet can titer 2 weeks after the vaccine given after 14 weeks to be sure it seroconverted or "took."

[Snowshoe]

He shows zero resource guarding. I can nudge his snout out of his food bowl with my face and he only want to nudge his way back in. it.

Finally, please do not stick your face in your dog's dish. If you are trying to work on your dog not being food aggressive, there are other ways -- better ways. Sticking your hands, face, etc. in his bowl are not one of those ways. In fact, that's a good way to get bitten eventually. You're just pushing him by annoying him, not training him, and that can be dangerous.

Whether to vaccinate is really your choice. The only vaccination legally required in most places is Rabies. Skip the Rabies and you run the risk, probably remote, of your dog being PTS so his brain can be examined for Rabies if he bites someone or, maybe even more remote, if he is accused of biting someone.

Myself, I chose to do the puppy vacs., the one year booster and then no more except for Rabies. I did not do Lympes or Lepto but I do believe they are not as dangerous as they were when Oban was a puppy, particularly the Lepto. I did titre and I will again.

There is a group of dog owners who do not believe in vaccination (maybe they don't vaccinate their children either) and I think you will find some of them at Dogs Naturally. The editor is a Lab breeder. I think I read there that they still endorse socialization at a young age, which you can still do safely. You don't have to avoid everyone, every place, every thing. In fact I think pup should be covered for a period for most things by immunity acquired from Mum. Maybe a breeder can chime in on that. Oh, and you can titre an unvaccinated dog, he may have naturally acquired antibodies.

Dogs Naturally Magazine

I included the part of your post where I think you are making a mistake. I agree with Labradorks. Not only is it proven (Skinner) that what you are doing is more likely to CREATE resource guarding, it just is not a kind thing to do to your dog. Food is one of the most important things, a huge joy in his life. Give him his food and let him eat it in peace. The links below are about this and the second one is to the parent site, dedicated to safe dog/child interactions.

https://www.cappdt.ca/UserFiles/File/...%20parents.pdf

Doggone Safe - Home



ETA: I mean I think the vaccinations for Lymes and Lepto might have improved and be safer, not that the diseases are less serious.

[JenC]

I believe in limited vaccinations. I don't know about your proposed protocol. With our last 2 litters (where Jack and Jed, and then where Grizz came from)....I did the appropriate puppy shots and then did the one year booster myself. Our vet does rabies when applicable.

I think a wider range of socialization is needed, but that's just me.

[brianosaur]

Okay thanks.

The pdf on resource guarding prevention was informative. Although tossing treats to him near his bowl while eating would be ridiculous in my case because little mr obsessed eating machine would be oblivious to them. If added to his bowl he wouldnt even notice and just keep on devouring everything.

So the face in the bowl was a bit of an exaggeration people. Yes, I have put my hand over his bowl and picked it up while he is eating and he just sits and looks at me. And its not like I do that at every meal. Ive done it a handful of times in the past seven weeks to see if he would react bc I have a 7yo in the house. I don't make it a point to annoy my pet while he is eating but I understand the concern.

I have done ALOT of reading on the vacc subject. No my breeder didnt vaccinate. Yes, you can get Neopar and NeoVac online overight in iceboxes.
I've looked into titres and several vets near me will do that.
I plan on using Thuja and Benedryl before/after. (google it) Dodds or Shultz protocols go over the schedule thoroughly. As far as medical training to give the injection there are about 100 youtube vids with everyone and their brother showing how simple it is.
If there is a reaction issue the closest emergency animal hospital is less then 5 mins away. ...this is Long Island.

I am not against vaccinations. Just not over-vaccinating a puppy multiple times for no reason.
Pretty much Shultz says maternal anti-bodies are gone at 16 weeks and 1 vaccination is enough until a year later.

I was wondering if anybody has done this and if so do they wait between Parvo & Distemper injections?

I have done rescue since 1986. Yes, unsocialized Labs can bite. You need an experienced trainer and vet. There are many good and
holistic resources on Long Island for vet care and training. A vet can titer 2 weeks after the vaccine given after 14 weeks to be sure it seroconverted or "took."

Well I don't think he is 'unsocialized'. He has met 20+ people and is handled/touched constantly. He just hasn't met 1000 people standing outside of a Walmart.

Where on Long Island is there holistic vets? The few I called who claimed to be holistic insisted on 5in1's ...and one was pushing the lepto & lymes and monthly heartworm.
I would love to go to a holistic vet that was truly holistic. Can you point me to one?

[brianosaur]

What is NOT rare, are behavior issues with dogs -- yes, Labs -- due to lack of socialization as a youngster, which is very difficult, often impossible, to overcome. Worst case scenario is that you have a fear-biter on your hands. Dogs who are not socialized off of their property can also develop territorial issues. Some dogs with lack of socialization are not fearful or aggressive but very overstimulated with new experiences to the point where they are very difficult to be around. It depends on your Lab's temperament.

If you choose to stay on this route, I would highly suggest going to other people's homes to socialize. As long as their pets are vaccinated or don't ever leave the house, their homes should be just as safe as yours. Clearly, if they have a dog, you'll want it to be good with other dogs, especially with puppies. Most training facilities are safe as well (vet them first), but your puppy may not be allowed due to your lack of vaccinations. As a first time dog owner you NEED to get your puppy to class, so as soon as it's safe and they will let you in, run, don't walk, to the nearest (best) dog training facility.

Labs are a working breed and their temperaments vary greatly. It all depends on what type of Lab you have, their lines, etc. Either way, they need socialization. To assume that Labs don't bite or are all one way or another is very naive. I ran a Lab rescue and saw plenty of these things due to bad breeding, bad training, and/or lack of socialization.

Thanks
This makes a lot of sense. He comes from very good show & conformation lines. Great health clearances. The breeder has been doing so for 25+ years and is an AKC judge. He is very easy going and seemingly well adjusted. He loves people. ...but he is at home when he meets them.
I wouldn't *think* he would be territorial but its a good point.

I wish to do puppy classes but they require vaccs. Maybe I'm different then most first timers but I have spent probably hundreds of hours over the last year, reading and watching videos over and over. I took off over a week from work when we first got him, to work with him. He has never home alone for more then an hour or two since we got him.

He was sleeping in his crate without wining at day two. Litter trained outside in less then a week. Bite inhibition in less then two weeks at home. He sleeps through the night at 9-10 weeks. He sits, comes and does down very well from about 11 weeks. We are working on stay. I have had him on/in wobble boards, tubes, wheelbarrows and many other weird things. He doesn't freak at the blender or vacuum. He has seen heavycoats, hoddies, backpacks, facemasks, sunglasses, ski goggles, ear muffs, ect. He doesn't chew on everything in site and does "leave it" without hesitation.

....just wanted to let you know where I am coming from. My DW says Im freaking obsessed with the puppy and cant understand it.

I guess what I am asking is that if he a a well rounded, easy going, good temperament family dog, would off site socialization be HUGE factor if it happens at 18 weeks instead of 12? How important is that 8-12 week window in my situation?

[Labradorks]

I guess what I am asking is that if he a a well rounded, easy going, good temperament family dog, would off site socialization be HUGE factor if it happens at 18 weeks instead of 12? How important is that 8-12 week window in my situation?

I don't know, I have never taken that risk.

What do all of your books, YouTube videos, DVDs, and super experienced breeder say about it?

[Snowshoe]

https://www.trainyourdogmonth.com/mem...dmrkletter.pdf

The Dr. Anderson letter ^ is SO well known but maybe you haven't read it. No one is going to give you a guarantee on this, either way. It's pretty well acknowledged now that the early period for socialization IS huge. Like vaccinations it's your choice.

You know, the SIT you train in the kitchen of your own house has to be trained outside your house as well. The same goes for meeting people. Calm accepting behaviour in your own, safe, house, may not be the same thing to your dog as big, scary people with funny hats outside your house.