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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
    I am finding this whole conversation fascinating, as I don’t know all that much about HT, but it’s interesting to compare to my own sport of Obedience. In Utility, which is the hardest level of competition, the pass rate in Utility B, which is seasoned dogs that have already earned a UD, is only about 50%. The pass rate in Utility A, which is for dogs trying for the UD, it’s much lower - probably in the 10-15% range. There are many shows I’ve been to where no one passes.

    Point is, I get that the top level should be hard - it wouldn’t be much of an achievement if it wasn't ... but for us at least, 99% of the time it’s clear whether the dog passed or not - it’s not a question of the judge’s subjective opinion. Either they did the principal part of all the exercises or they didn’t. The rules are pretty clear on what things are an automatic NQ. It’s very rare to NQ just on total points off - could it happen? Sure, but most judges go out of their way not to let that happen if the dog is otherwise passing - I have friends who are judges who have added points back on to help a dog who hadn’t otherwise NQ’d get to 170. I would imagine that if pass/fail is more subjective that opens up a much larger can of worms. The other difference of course for us, is that the class is always the exact same, which allows for more standardization of grading.

    I teach in a graduate program, and I’ve found that if you want a specific pass rate, you need to either make the test harder or your grading standards tougher. Sounds like with HT, they’re leaning towards the first option. In Obedience, the scoring is usually much tougher in Utility B than in the A class, even though the exercises are the same, which is how they differentiate between dogs who are going for an OTCH.
    I believe HT are similar in concept to the preferred obedience classes.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    I believe HT are similar in concept to the preferred obedience classes.
    How so?

  3. #23
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    So, FT were thought to be subjective. And necessarily so, in some sense, since no matter how many dogs are entered, only 4 can place. The top 4 may be awfully, awfully fine dogs with expert handlers, but a quirk of wind or the change of light from 8 AM to 12 N could advantage or disadvantage one dog over the other in one series. To remedy this, when AKC came up with HT's (actually, they copied the UKC... but that's old history) anyhow, back when, they decided to come up with numerical grades. Dogs were graded on marking (primary importance) perseverance (how hard do they hunt, do they "cheat" water or take roads and hills perpendicularly when an angle is required, do they suck in to temptation to return to an old mark... many sorts of things), training, and style (I know... can mean a lot of things to different people, but principally it's supposed to mean does the dog seem to enjoy the work.) The dogs are graded 1-10. The rule book has guidelines on major and minor faults. If both judges give a dog zero in any of the 4 categories, then it's an automatic DQ (NQ). If the dog averages, over the course of the HT, less than (I think) 7 on any category, they cannot qualify.

    The rule book gives judges some clarification on how to ratchet up standards from Junior to Senior to Master. Junior dogs are not actually scored on trainability with the caveat that failure to bring the bird to hand is disqualifying. They can also, theoretically, be so crazy on the line that the judges can DQ them. (I've seen this happen only once. The dog was literally screaming like a banshee on the line and pulling the handler off his feet.)

    The other thing HT's attempt to do is standardize a "body of knowledge" (which is really impossible) for judges by requiring classes and having certain requirements for apprenticing at each of the 3 levels.

    If you have an opportunity to visit a HT, take it in. If you're a dog-person at all, you'll find it fascinating.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    So, FT were thought to be subjective. And necessarily so, in some sense, since no matter how many dogs are entered, only 4 can place. The top 4 may be awfully, awfully fine dogs with expert handlers, but a quirk of wind or the change of light from 8 AM to 12 N could advantage or disadvantage one dog over the other in one series. To remedy this, when AKC came up with HT's (actually, they copied the UKC... but that's old history) anyhow, back when, they decided to come up with numerical grades. Dogs were graded on marking (primary importance) perseverance (how hard do they hunt, do they "cheat" water or take roads and hills perpendicularly when an angle is required, do they suck in to temptation to return to an old mark... many sorts of things), training, and style (I know... can mean a lot of things to different people, but principally it's supposed to mean does the dog seem to enjoy the work.) The dogs are graded 1-10. The rule book has guidelines on major and minor faults. If both judges give a dog zero in any of the 4 categories, then it's an automatic DQ (NQ). If the dog averages, over the course of the HT, less than (I think) 7 on any category, they cannot qualify.

    The rule book gives judges some clarification on how to ratchet up standards from Junior to Senior to Master. Junior dogs are not actually scored on trainability with the caveat that failure to bring the bird to hand is disqualifying. They can also, theoretically, be so crazy on the line that the judges can DQ them. (I've seen this happen only once. The dog was literally screaming like a banshee on the line and pulling the handler off his feet.)

    The other thing HT's attempt to do is standardize a "body of knowledge" (which is really impossible) for judges by requiring classes and having certain requirements for apprenticing at each of the 3 levels.

    If you have an opportunity to visit a HT, take it in. If you're a dog-person at all, you'll find it fascinating.
    TuMicks,
    It would be really interesting to do a comparative study of the grades assigned for "style" for dogs that have been FF and e-collar conditioned vs. those that have not. Of course the same judges would grade both groups and would not know which dogs fell into either group (or better yet, that the study was even being conducted) that really minimizing any bias related to the leanings of the judge. I know which group I'd put my money on - sign me up for the "robotic" team. LMIAO.

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    TuMicks,
    It would be really interesting to do a comparative study of the grades assigned for "style" for dogs that have been FF and e-collar conditioned vs. those that have not. Of course the same judges would grade both groups and would not know which dogs fell into either group (or better yet, that the study was even being conducted) that really minimizing any bias related to the leanings of the judge. I know which group I'd put my money on - sign me up for the "robotic" team. LMIAO.

    Irishwhistler
    I looked at my scores for each test. In two of our four runs, we received all 9s and 10s with the fourth test being one of the top five clean runs of the day (per the judges) with 24 dogs and a semi-high failure rate with the majority of juniors run by pros. My first test was mostly 8s and 9s. Our third test, the one I ran with TuMicks, was not our best test, was 7s and 8s, with a couple 9s.

  7. #26
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    TuMicks,
    It would be really interesting to do a comparative study of the grades assigned for "style" for dogs that have been FF and e-collar conditioned vs. those that have not. Of course the same judges would grade both groups and would not know which dogs fell into either group (or better yet, that the study was even being conducted) that really minimizing any bias related to the leanings of the judge. I know which group I'd put my money on - sign me up for the "robotic" team. LMIAO.

    Irishwhistler
    That's funny. I attended a judge's seminar years ago.... 2004??? The AKC rep described his idea of a "10" for style. It was a dog that was just itching to go from the line. I thought, oh yea, I'd so want to sit w /that dog in the blind all day.

    My idea of style is the dog that is calm on the line, great obed manners (walk nicely to the line at heel, sits automatically and calmly takes it all in), but blasts off as soon as he/she is sent. Style is SUPPOSED to be judged based on the breed too... so a Poodle or Curly Coat should not be expected to have the same style as a Labrador or a NSDT or Chessie or whatnot. I wonder how many of the younger judges even know what the lesser common breeds' working styles should be. It's interesting enough to see some of the test set ups in taller grass-- judges not taking the time to get down to the dogs' eye levels (esp w/ some of the smaller breeds now allowed) to make sure the dogs can see the marks.
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  9. #27
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    The first judges seminar I attended they had the group judge two dogs working the same test. One was a high powered black lab and the other was a show golden in full coat. The group scored the lab much higher for style than the golden. I was at a test where this same golden was running as the master test dog and not being very successful. There was quite a conversation after one of the judges said "will somebody please get a dog that can do this test". As a judge I have had test dogs that really could not do the test but I would never say something like that. We usually say we may need to tweak the test so a second dog is run to see what the problem was.
    As for the eagerness of e-collar trained dogs M is one of those that if you even touch the collar in the house she goes ballistic, it is training time !

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I looked at my scores for each test. In two of our four runs, we received all 9s and 10s with the fourth test being one of the top five clean runs of the day (per the judges) with 24 dogs and a semi-high failure rate with the majority of juniors run by pros. My first test was mostly 8s and 9s. Our third test, the one I ran with TuMicks, was not our best test, was 7s and 8s, with a couple 9s.
    Hardly a scientific sampling of any significance.

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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    Hardly a scientific sampling of any significance.

    Irishwhistler
    Gee, thanks for clarifying that. I thought you were curious about how a non-FF actually dog did do so you could stop making insulting and incorrect assumptions. My bad.

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  14. #30
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
    The first judges seminar I attended they had the group judge two dogs working the same test. One was a high powered black lab and the other was a show golden in full coat. The group scored the lab much higher for style than the golden. I was at a test where this same golden was running as the master test dog and not being very successful. There was quite a conversation after one of the judges said "will somebody please get a dog that can do this test". As a judge I have had test dogs that really could not do the test but I would never say something like that. We usually say we may need to tweak the test so a second dog is run to see what the problem was.
    As for the eagerness of e-collar trained dogs M is one of those that if you even touch the collar in the house she goes ballistic, it is training time !
    My 8 yo Envy gets to run as test dog this Sunday. She LOVES it and I love that she loves it. She's a high charging dog, so if there are any holes/ dangers out there especially right off the line, she'll find them for us and hopefully spare some young dogs' joints (incl the 2 I have running!). Yes indeed, you want a dog that can do the test. She is probably a bit "overqualified" in some regards since she is a fantastic marker and can handle and do doubles, but I never ran her at SH due to her "overenthusiasm" on water (can you say breaking/ screaming dog?).
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