Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 56
  1. #31
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,366
    Thanked: 1096
    To answer your question... there might be no difference in terms of effect. The difference is anger vrs. ignorance. I recognized that the effect I was getting was NOT the same as the pro was getting. (Very effective response in the pro's hands.). So, I could spend a long, long time learning how to do it well (and both the dog and I would be too old to do anything further) or I could try something else.

    I think the fact that Hillmann has gotten so much traffic and attention is because of this very issue.

    When the time comes that the +R (or is it R+) people get their methods refined and they can get a dog to their potential in a timely way... people might throw e-collars away. Although, you have to have a method that old farts with bad knees can use effectively. That is a very high bar to pass.

    On the other hand, maybe they should redefine what it means to be R+ (+R). Hillmann maintains, if I get the gist of his materials, that he is doing exactly this. Should that redefinition ever happen, then the ladies of the doilies and dog training* circle here in our town will need to get used to seeing a dog wearing a receiver around their necks.

    * Many years ago when we moved to this town, I thought I'd like to get to know the dog training circles in our new home-town and maybe put a CD title on my puppy. They saw me give my dog a leash correction, clutched their pearls and had a collective case of the vapors. Needless to say, I did not feel the love.

  2. #32
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,947
    Thanked: 2421
    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    To answer your question... there might be no difference in terms of effect. The difference is anger vrs. ignorance. I recognized that the effect I was getting was NOT the same as the pro was getting. (Very effective response in the pro's hands.). So, I could spend a long, long time learning how to do it well (and both the dog and I would be too old to do anything further) or I could try something else.

    I think the fact that Hillmann has gotten so much traffic and attention is because of this very issue.

    When the time comes that the +R (or is it R+) people get their methods refined and they can get a dog to their potential in a timely way... people might throw e-collars away. Although, you have to have a method that old farts with bad knees can use effectively. That is a very high bar to pass.

    On the other hand, maybe they should redefine what it means to be R+ (+R). Hillmann maintains, if I get the gist of his materials, that he is doing exactly this. Should that redefinition ever happen, then the ladies of the doilies and dog training* circle here in our town will need to get used to seeing a dog wearing a receiver around their necks.

    * Many years ago when we moved to this town, I thought I'd like to get to know the dog training circles in our new home-town and maybe put a CD title on my puppy. They saw me give my dog a leash correction, clutched their pearls and had a collective case of the vapors. Needless to say, I did not feel the love.
    So, I think this is where I have an issue. Just because it's ignorance vs. anger, the damage to the dog is done. If you feed a dog to much because you love him and he suffers because an obesity related disease, does it matter that the owner overfed the dog because of love? The dog doesn't know or feel the difference in the end. If a dog is making mistakes due to handler ignorance, or to put it nicely, handler inexperience, the dog is likely receiving punishment for those mistakes that the handler taught the dog. So, if a trainer, say, trains a dog to dance on the line by simply allowing it and then reinforcing it (dog gets the reward -- bird, bumper, ball, etc.), then decides later on that it is unacceptable and starts punishing the dog for dancing, how is that fair to the dog when the owner is the one that did not set the criteria correctly in the first place and reinforced the dog over and over again to dance on the line by rewarding it with the release? I make mistakes all the time and I have certainly changed criteria over time with more experience and exposure. Everyone does it. Instead of using punishment, I went back and re-trained the cue. It took time to do that, but it was my mistake, my lack of clarity in the first place, not the dog's. If I did not train my dog to sit quickly or with precision in the first place, I cannot later on punish him for lack of speed or precision.

    I really don't get the comment about time it takes to train +R vs. traditional methods. I'm not sure where that comes from. You will have a tough time finding a trainer and a person has to relearn everything if they trained a certain way, so that certainly takes more time. And anyway, so what if it takes longer? Even if we're talking a year here, is this really a huge difference in the long run? If you are a super high level trainer, you'll trainer faster just due to experience anyway, but for a novice, what does it matter if the dog gets a JH at one or two years old? Especially if the two year old dog has a rock solid foundation and slides into Seniors instead of having to take a break to retrain the dog due to roughing the bird, screaming, line manners, breaking, etc., from rushing he dog through training and training the dog using low criteria? IMHO, a novice trainer needs the time as well, to learn and grow along with their dog, and shouldn't be worrying about how long it takes to get a title, only because it's often the dog that pays for mistakes and "too much too soon" types of training. These setbacks can be real confidence killers for both dog and handler, too.
    Last edited by Labradorks; 07-12-2017 at 03:20 AM.

  3. #33
    Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Greenwood, Delaware
    Posts
    7,348
    Thanked: 7148
    Same old argument. Labradorks I glad what you are doing works for, and I applaud your efforts. You keep talking about punishment, and yes, a e collar can certainly inflict pain and punishment. When training any animal, including humans, punishment and actions out of anger do not work in the long run. I trained air traffic controllers for almost 20 years, I trained CPR and first aid classes, I trained absolute beginners to ride motorcycles, I trained more experience motorcycle riders high performance riding on racetracks up and down the east coast. I trained sales and customer service reps.

    With all this being said, corrections are not punishment. A correction is just that, identifying a behavior that is wrong/undesirable and making a correction to fix it. A quick leash pop is not punishment, it's a correction. If a trainee (dog, human, whatever) does not know when they've done something wrong, how do they know they've done something right? Brooks knows sit, he knows sit mean plant your butt and don't move until I tell him to. Let's say I tell Brooks to sit, and he sits, and I praise him and give him a treat, then I walk a step back and he gets up immediately. I repeat this action over and over and over, with the same results, he keeps getting up. He's obviously not doing as he's been trained, and he's basically self rewarding. I believe in his mind, he gets up, he gets a treat. Same situation, but this time when he gets up the first time, after he's had his praise and his treat, I walk over and give him a leash pop and tell him to sit. I walk away and his but stays planted until I release him. My actions were not done out of anger, and my correction resulted in Brooks complying with what I told him to do.

    My dogs are well loved, well cared for, and not abused in any way. All of the training corrections I used are done at a level that lets the dog know they are doing something wrong, and it corrects the unwanted behavior. All of the corrections I use were taught by the two instructors who's classes I attend, and people who have trained multiple dogs to multiple high level obedience and field titles. All of them use prong collars, e collars, etc, and I've not seen any of them correct their dogs in what I would consider an abusive manner. Abuse is not inflicted by the tool, it's inflicted by the person who uses the tool.

    I completely understand that you have strong opinions on these subjects, however it doesn't make your way the only right way. Everyone should choose the methods that best suit them, their situation, and mostly their dog. I don't believe it was TuMicks intention to say everyone should be using an e collar, and I certainly don't believe everyone should use one. When she started this thread I started checking out Hillman's methods, and I felt he had the best grasp on how an e collar can be used in a positive way, and now that I've been using them to train Brooks, I whole heartedly endorse this program. Brooks has NO physical reaction when I press the button, there is no pain, no vocalizing, no fear. What there is, is compliance with the given command from a distance, the same compliance I would get if he was next to me on the leash.

    Have you even watched Hillman's video's??? If no, I'd suggest you do so, maybe it will give you an understanding of how this tool can be used in a positive manner.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to barry581 For This Useful Post:

    Annette47 (07-13-2017)

  5. #34
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Eastern Ontario Canada
    Posts
    3,336
    Thanked: 2070
    I hesitate to respond again as, again, I am not completely anti e-collars and have used one. I just get frustrated with language/semantics.

    According to the learning theory applications of a stimulus to reduce a behaviour would be a punishment not meant in the sense that you are hurting the dog just in the context of learning theory. Addition (=positive) of an outside stimulus to get a decrease in unwanted behaviour (decrease = punishment).

    And e-collars produce an electric current into the dog's body (a light one, just enough to obtain a reaction) which is a shock. so it is shocking the dog but at the lowest level to obtain the desired reaction.
    e·lec·tric shock
    noun
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

    • a sudden discharge of electricity through a part of the body.


    Also I believe there was a study but for the life of me I cannot find it that said that the average dog owner cannot effectively use an e-collar, but that in the hands of professionals it could be effective (or effective with fewer increases in stress signals/negative side effects).And this impacted the laws in that area so that only professionals could buy e-collars. Which is an interesting way of doing it. Now the issue would be some trainers who are not "professional" could absolutely become effective/proficient in use of e-collar (and I imagine most of you have!)


  6. #35
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,366
    Thanked: 1096
    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    So, I think this is where I have an issue. Just because it's ignorance vs. anger, the damage to the dog is done. If you feed a dog to much because you love him and he suffers because an obesity related disease, does it matter that the owner overfed the dog because of love? The dog doesn't know or feel the difference in the end. If a dog is making mistakes due to handler ignorance, or to put it nicely, handler inexperience, the dog is likely receiving punishment for those mistakes that the handler taught the dog. So, if a trainer, say, trains a dog to dance on the line by simply allowing it and then reinforcing it (dog gets the reward -- bird, bumper, ball, etc.), then decides later on that it is unacceptable and starts punishing the dog for dancing, how is that fair to the dog when the owner is the one that did not set the criteria correctly in the first place and reinforced the dog over and over again to dance on the line by rewarding it with the release? I make mistakes all the time and I have certainly changed criteria over time with more experience and exposure. Everyone does it. Instead of using punishment, I went back and re-trained the cue. It took time to do that, but it was my mistake, my lack of clarity in the first place, not the dog's. If I did not train my dog to sit quickly or with precision in the first place, I cannot later on punish him for lack of speed or precision.

    Which is pretty much where we are at this point. I know I'm not skilled at using the collar the way the pro does, so I'll use it the way Hillmann does. I'm very lucky I have a dog that (1) shakes it off and isn't sulky and (2) has so much momentum she'll do anything for the bird.


    And aI really don't get the comment about time it takes to train +R vs. traditional methods. I'm not sure where that comes from. You will have a tough time finding a trainer and a person has to relearn everything if they trained a certain way, so that certainly takes more time. Anyway, so what if it takes longer? Even if we're talking a year here, is this really a huge difference in the long run?

    If anyone has a system/method that brings the dog along at a reasonable and consistent rate so that they can hunt and/or compete at a high level while they are still young dogs... that method works. Use it. But unfortunately, God only gives a dog 10 or 11 hunting seasons. It would be a shame to lose half of them if the training method is too tedious.

    If you are a super high level trainer, you'll trainer faster just due to experience anyway, but for a novice, what does it matter if the dog gets a JH at one or two years old? Especially if the two year old dog has a rock solid foundation and slides into Seniors instead of having to take a break to retrain the dog due to roughing the bird, screaming, line manners, breaking, etc., from rushing he dog through training and training the dog using low criteria? IMHO, a novice trainer needs the time as well, to learn and grow along with their dog, and shouldn't be worrying about how long it takes to get a title, only because it's often the dog that pays for mistakes and "too much too soon" types of training. These setbacks can be real confidence killers for both dog and handler, too.


    I think that if this dog belonged to the pro, or someone with that level of skill, she'd be a wonder... she wouldn't be relearning anything. And she would not have been rushed. Our deal was all about learning to be a team. I believe she did not trust that I would let her have the retrieve and so she got more and more panicked the more we worked together. I'm not even sure it was collar pressure that I was doing wrong. If I had to guess, I'd say it was denial that I used inappropriately.
    I don't disagree with any of your points. No matter how she was trained by the pro, we would still have had a setback because I would have to learn how to work with her.

  7. #36
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,366
    Thanked: 1096
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanya View Post
    I hesitate to respond again as, again, I am not completely anti e-collars and have used one. I just get frustrated with language/semantics.

    According to the learning theory applications of a stimulus to reduce a behaviour would be a punishment not meant in the sense that you are hurting the dog just in the context of learning theory. Addition (=positive) of an outside stimulus to get a decrease in unwanted behaviour (decrease = punishment).

    And e-collars produce an electric current into the dog's body (a light one, just enough to obtain a reaction) which is a shock. so it is shocking the dog but at the lowest level to obtain the desired reaction.
    e·lec·tric shock
    noun
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

    • a sudden discharge of electricity through a part of the body.


    Also I believe there was a study but for the life of me I cannot find it that said that the average dog owner cannot effectively use an e-collar, but that in the hands of professionals it could be effective (or effective with fewer increases in stress signals/negative side effects).And this impacted the laws in that area so that only professionals could buy e-collars. Which is an interesting way of doing it. Now the issue would be some trainers who are not "professional" could absolutely become effective/proficient in use of e-collar (and I imagine most of you have!)

    When I was in my doctoral program, we did journal club every week. It was amazing to me how easy it was to find really weak research published in peer-reviewed journals. I never believed in "settled science." But if the research was done when the collars were pretty primitive, I can see how it measured exactly what you describe. I think the first e-collars came out in the mid to late 1960's and they did not have variable levels of juice. And there was not a lot of resource material an amateur could turn to to learn how a collar ought to be used. (DVD's hadn't been invented!)

    I'm no expert, but I think Hillmann's method will be recognized as a positive-only system some day. His whole goal is to avoid corrections and reward correct behavior.

    If you use your hand to pet and stroke your dog when they do the right thing, you are rewarding him with a physical stimulus. If you use your hand to strike the dog, you're using the same "tool" to punish the dog.

    The way Hillmann uses the collar, the dog associates the buzz as a sign he's pleased the handler with the right behavior. I've seen Rocket Dog respond physically with body language that is similar to what she shows when I pat her.

    Does that make sense?

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TuMicks For This Useful Post:

    Annette47 (07-13-2017), barry581 (07-12-2017)

  9. #37
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Eastern Ontario Canada
    Posts
    3,336
    Thanked: 2070
    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    When I was in my doctoral program, we did journal club every week. It was amazing to me how easy it was to find really weak research published in peer-reviewed journals. I never believed in "settled science." But if the research was done when the collars were pretty primitive, I can see how it measured exactly what you describe. I think the first e-collars came out in the mid to late 1960's and they did not have variable levels of juice. And there was not a lot of resource material an amateur could turn to to learn how a collar ought to be used. (DVD's hadn't been invented!)

    I'm no expert, but I think Hillmann's method will be recognized as a positive-only system some day. Which would really mess with the governments that have outlawed the tool.
    no it wasn't old. but timing in dog training is VERY hard. even for trainers with experience. so anyone that hasn't really honed in their craft is likely to have bad timing leading to the e-collar not being effective/confusing. It's not about the tool hurting the dog but the addition of an outside stimulus that confused the dog due to bad timing. There have been many small researches on that front (effectiveness of e-collars VS other training tools and impact on the dog). But I agree much more researches/studies needs to be made (and properly done).

    I agree to disagree, I cannot wrap my mind around an outside stimulus like that being positive training. Not saying I am AGAINST using e-collars properly, just that they remain a correction. they are not a reward. we can debate if they are more or less "hard" on the dog than a stern "no" or "leash pop". but all remain corrections.

  10. #38
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,366
    Thanked: 1096
    I guess I don't know what you mean by "outside stimulus" vrs... "inside??? stimulus." There are clickers, there are treats, verbal encouragement, leash corrections/pops. Maybe we agree with each other but I don't understand your training vocabulary.

    As an aside... it would be hard to get solid research that everyone could agree was non-partisan because dog ownership, breeding, training... it's been taken over by political pressure groups. Sadly.

    I think I might trust these guys, however.

    Overview | Evolutionary Anthropology

  11. #39
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Eastern Ontario Canada
    Posts
    3,336
    Thanked: 2070
    positive pressure just means anything ADDED by the human. so all of those are positive. clicker, leash poop, lure, e-collar (activated). all positive. negative would be REMOVAL of something. so removal of toy, removal of yourself, removal something.

    Now if the wanted behaviour increases that is reinforced. If the behavior is decreased it in punishment. they are just terms.

    Positive punishment is adding something that will decrease the behaviour. Bark collar with "add" a shock to get the dog to stop barking. Now - in this definition if there is not increase or decrease then it's neither positive nor negative! It just - exists

    Negative punishment would be removing yourself the second the dog bites or jumps in hopes the behaviour decreases (jump = loss of resource). if there is non decrease then there is no learning/training going on.

    can't find a good link right now.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Tanya For This Useful Post:

    Annette47 (07-13-2017)

  13. #40
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,947
    Thanked: 2421
    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    Same old argument. Labradorks I glad what you are doing works for, and I applaud your efforts. You keep talking about punishment, and yes, a e collar can certainly inflict pain and punishment. When training any animal, including humans, punishment and actions out of anger do not work in the long run. I trained air traffic controllers for almost 20 years, I trained CPR and first aid classes, I trained absolute beginners to ride motorcycles, I trained more experience motorcycle riders high performance riding on racetracks up and down the east coast. I trained sales and customer service reps.

    With all this being said, corrections are not punishment. A correction is just that, identifying a behavior that is wrong/undesirable and making a correction to fix it. A quick leash pop is not punishment, it's a correction. If a trainee (dog, human, whatever) does not know when they've done something wrong, how do they know they've done something right? Brooks knows sit, he knows sit mean plant your butt and don't move until I tell him to. Let's say I tell Brooks to sit, and he sits, and I praise him and give him a treat, then I walk a step back and he gets up immediately. I repeat this action over and over and over, with the same results, he keeps getting up. He's obviously not doing as he's been trained, and he's basically self rewarding. I believe in his mind, he gets up, he gets a treat. Same situation, but this time when he gets up the first time, after he's had his praise and his treat, I walk over and give him a leash pop and tell him to sit. I walk away and his but stays planted until I release him. My actions were not done out of anger, and my correction resulted in Brooks complying with what I told him to do.

    My dogs are well loved, well cared for, and not abused in any way. All of the training corrections I used are done at a level that lets the dog know they are doing something wrong, and it corrects the unwanted behavior. All of the corrections I use were taught by the two instructors who's classes I attend, and people who have trained multiple dogs to multiple high level obedience and field titles. All of them use prong collars, e collars, etc, and I've not seen any of them correct their dogs in what I would consider an abusive manner. Abuse is not inflicted by the tool, it's inflicted by the person who uses the tool.

    I completely understand that you have strong opinions on these subjects, however it doesn't make your way the only right way. Everyone should choose the methods that best suit them, their situation, and mostly their dog. I don't believe it was TuMicks intention to say everyone should be using an e collar, and I certainly don't believe everyone should use one. When she started this thread I started checking out Hillman's methods, and I felt he had the best grasp on how an e collar can be used in a positive way, and now that I've been using them to train Brooks, I whole heartedly endorse this program. Brooks has NO physical reaction when I press the button, there is no pain, no vocalizing, no fear. What there is, is compliance with the given command from a distance, the same compliance I would get if he was next to me on the leash.

    Have you even watched Hillman's video's??? If no, I'd suggest you do so, maybe it will give you an understanding of how this tool can be used in a positive manner.
    No one is suggesting that you or anyone else is abusing your dog. TuMicks gets it; read her reply. It's a conversation, not an accusation. Timing is hard. Even timing using +R is hard. It's OK to make mistakes. I have certainly trained things poorly myself. And, if we look back on a dog's errors, we usually see/find out that the error was due to muddy cues, too much too soon, handler mistakes, lack of criteria, etc. My point is, why should the dog be punished for our mistakes? And, when you have a novice person training a novice dog, mistakes will be made. Even though I don't use punishment, my mistakes affect my dog. Of course I have watched Hillman's videos. I'm not coming at this discussion completely ignorant. I have been training with traditional trainers for years, watching their dogs and their other students' dogs and most of my training partners are traditional trainers as well. If I thought they were abusive, I would not train with them or call them my friends. When I was in a position where I do believe there was abuse, I spoke to the trainer and quit going to the class.

    I train humans, too, and while I try to use methods that encourage them and build their confidence and motivation for the task at hand, I don't have to worry about timing because I can always explain things to them, as we speak the same language and are the same species. Employee retention and happiness is important to me, not just that they do the work. I also realize that sometimes I tell the person the wrong thing or I am not clear, and that person should not be corrected for a mistake that I made. Is a correction punishment? It depends on the dog or person. But I guess the question is, why is the dog making mistakes in the first place? If he was trained correctly and with a solid foundation, corrections and punishment should not need to occur. The correct +R way is that a dog is so solid in what is right that wrong does not happen and if it does, they are not clear about what you want.

    So, your question is, how will your dog know when they are right if they don't know what is wrong? Lots of research suggests that it is not necessary to tell a dog when they are wrong. But they key is that have to train them correctly what is right in the first place. And my question is, how is it fair to the dog to punish him for something that is not clear and/or handler mistakes? The answer to both questions isn't titles because we can both point to titled dogs/handlers using any method that someone throws out there. Dogs are amazing, forgiving and resilient creatures. It's crazy what they can learn even from even the most unfair trainers. I have a friend whose cues are so inconsistent and muddy that half the time I have no clue what she is asking her dog to do. Her timing is awful. She cues the dog then clicks as she feeds him instead of clicking for behavior. It's a miracle that he is successful, but he tries and usually gets it and he doesn't seem to care, so whatever. What method is best? I do feel like the +R method is a better choice for novice trainers because clarity and perfecting your handling is the focus and when your dog responds to mistakes, they are not punished. Learn, get yourself trained and as close to perfect as possible before you expect that of your dog. In dressage, trainers put their students on school masters so the students can learn to ride and know that incorrect cues result in incorrect behaviors. However, they are not allowed to hit or kick their horse for incorrect behaviors resulting from incorrect cues. The horses will also let their rider know when they are not clear on criteria by not responding with the precision they are capable of and trained to. The rider is as responsible for the horse's performance as the horse. However, for a very experienced handler, I think that they could probably succeed -- and by succeed I'm not talking about the work, but doing the work with precision, speed and joy -- using almost any method with almost any dog.

 



Not a Member of the Labrador Retriever Chat Forums Yet?
Register for Free and Share Your Labrador Retriever Photos

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •