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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I can't spit cheese that far!!! No, seriously, I shoulda said that I need a distance tool. Did you go to the field work seminar? I may have not been paying attention (or on vaykay?) but you were going to fill us in on the latest positive methods in HT/FT training.
    Food is for foundation work. The seminar is next weekend and I am going to work on handling, so yes, I'll certainly recap. Hopefully I'll get some good video, too. We have a working spot.

  2. #22
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    That would be fabulous. Is this the one in Suisun City?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    That would be fabulous. Is this the one in Suisun City?
    Yep.

  4. #24
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Drive safely.

  5. #25
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    I use a Dogtra Pet IQ e-collar on Zach. It has a variety of choices of stimulation -- brief shock, nick, vibration. I think I've only used the nick once or twice -- the vibration all the other times. Works well for us.

  6. #26
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    regarding distance rewards and such there is a lot of work in agility groups about reward placement (as you need to train a dog to work AWAY from you as well as near so you don't want to ONLY reward near) and even having various commands so the dog knows where to get their reward. so it's not just about how far you can throw a treat (or spit the cheese). I admittedly have not gotten to working on that level (beyond throwing a toy).

    I am not 100% anti e-collar when properly used and conditioned (and not to address reactivity issues). However I cannot wrap my head around it "not being a punishment". It's all I read now. "ecollars do not shock". "e collars are not punishment they are a communication tool". I have yet to read anything that makes me able to make the leap to it NOT being punishment unless you've somehow conditioned the dog to enjoy it and associate it to positive.

  7. #27
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I don't know, Tanya. All I can tell you is I put the collar in my palm and squeeze it while hitting the transmitter and it is a buzz. Not even a tingle. I definitely feel it. No doubt. But... Can this collar "shock"? Yes it can. But in this system, that's not how you use it.

    The thing about Hillmann's system is that you're hitting the transmitter button (a LOT) when the dog is doing what you've asked him to do. Rocket Dog seems brighter and more engaged and wagging her tail, having fun, being successful... and I'm using the collar a lot, lot more. Not less.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I don't know, Tanya. All I can tell you is I put the collar in my palm and squeeze it while hitting the transmitter and it is a buzz. Not even a tingle. I definitely feel it. No doubt. But... Can this collar "shock"? Yes it can. But in this system, that's not how you use it.

    The thing about Hillmann's system is that you're hitting the transmitter button (a LOT) when the dog is doing what you've asked him to do. Rocket Dog seems brighter and more engaged and wagging her tail, having fun, being successful... and I'm using the collar a lot, lot more. Not less.
    I've been using Hillmans methods to collar condition Brooks. I'm using a Sportdog 425 which has 7 levels of stim, and I test every level on myself before I put it on Brooks. Levels 1 you literally feel nothing. Level 2 you feel it, but it's not even a minor annoyance. Level 3 will get your attention, but it's not painful in any way. Level 4 made me jump a bit the first time I tried it, however, it was not painful. Level 5 - 7 are what I would consider uncomfortable (5) to painful (7). This collar can be set to a higher level, again 1 to 7, with each being a bit stronger than on the lower level. I test all the levels on the collar on my fingers, forearm and yes, even my neck.

    I started collar conditioning about 2 weeks ago with "sit". I use level 2, and which I press the "nick" button, Brooks has no physical reaction. I'm not going to go through the whole Hillman process, but I will say, Brooks sit is much crisper, I tell him "sit" and his butt hits the ground. I was having some issues before the e collar where he would get up on his own. That's pretty much been fixed, whether he has the collar on or not. I've been working on him being steady when something is thrown, be it a Frisbee, tennis ball, or 100 yard mark in the field. Before the e collar I had to be standing right next to him to enforce the sit. Now I can walk 20-30 feet away and his butt will stay planted until I release him.

    We started working on recall tonight and it went well.

    I will whole heartedly agree that an e collar can be used to inflict pain on the dog, and I've seen people who do just that. In my research regarding e collar training not one "pro" endorses or recommends using a collar at the level that causes a dog to vocalize, which would indicate pain. One of my observations of people who do inflict pain on the dog as a "correction" is that the dogs become fearful of making a mistake, which ends up leading them to make a mistake, or shutting down. In my limited experience with formal field training I find that some use the e collar as a shortcut, and press a dog to try and do things they really aren't trained for. I watched a guy with an 8 month old puppy shock the crap out of his dog because the dog broke when she was "honoring". Personally I think that's a lot to ask of such a young dog, and rather than training the dog properly, he inflicted pain as a "correction".

    Again, I'm not endorsing or condemning the use of e collars. They are basically like any tool, in the right hands, they work great, in the wrong hands, not so much.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to barry581 For This Useful Post:

    Annette47 (07-13-2017), IRISHWISTLER (07-10-2017), TuMicks (07-11-2017)

  10. #29
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I think you're dead on about misuse of the e-collar. It's fine to have a distance tool (for me a necessity) but if you use it poorly, you "poison" everywhere "out there" and destroy the dog's momentum. Once you destroy GO with too much NO... you're in trouble.

    For the dog, the pain from the collar comes like a bolt from the blue. They don't associate it, necessarily with the handler. Done poorly, all they know is that spot where they got burned has bad joo-joo and they aren't going there again. When everywhere they go begins to have NO written all over it, guess what? They ain't going.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to TuMicks For This Useful Post:

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  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I think you're dead on about misuse of the e-collar. It's fine to have a distance tool (for me a necessity) but if you use it poorly, you "poison" everywhere "out there" and destroy the dog's momentum. Once you destroy GO with too much NO... you're in trouble.

    For the dog, the pain from the collar comes like a bolt from the blue. They don't associate it, necessarily with the handler. Done poorly, all they know is that spot where they got burned has bad joo-joo and they aren't going there again. When everywhere they go begins to have NO written all over it, guess what? They ain't going.
    So, then how does a novice handler not do this if they are novice? I personally believe that a novice handler with a transmitter in their hand is no different than an experienced handler with an anger management issue holding onto the transmitter. At least the experienced handler will be consistent and have criteria, good timing and clear handling.

 



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