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    Thread: Where to start?

    1. #1
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      Where to start?

      So I just started helping my friend train his labrador puppy. I have a lot of experience with my german shepherd, schutzhund/tracking/obedience, and dog training in general, but hunting is a whole new ball game for me. I'm trying to start a dog training business and I'm doing free training for my friend and he's going to refer people to me. I'd love to learn more about different fields of dog training. I'm starting with basic obedience and puppy stuff of course (his puppy is about 14 weeks old) such as housetraining, socialization, sit, stay, down, come, drop it, etc., but I'm looking for some reading material or other things to research about training a lab to go duck hunting and maybe even compete in AKC hunting trials. I've done some research, and so far it looks like the most important things I'm going to have to teach the puppy is a really solid stay, stay out of motion, retrieve, drop it, heel, and come. I love Leerburgs training methods if anyone knows who that is on this forum. Any advice on where to start learning more about all of this?

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    2. #2
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      Quote Originally Posted by tuliprox View Post
      So I just started helping my friend train his labrador puppy. I have a lot of experience with my german shepherd, schutzhund/tracking/obedience, and dog training in general, but hunting is a whole new ball game for me. I'm trying to start a dog training business and I'm doing free training for my friend and he's going to refer people to me. I'd love to learn more about different fields of dog training. I'm starting with basic obedience and puppy stuff of course (his puppy is about 14 weeks old) such as housetraining, socialization, sit, stay, down, come, drop it, etc., but I'm looking for some reading material or other things to research about training a lab to go duck hunting and maybe even compete in AKC hunting trials. I've done some research, and so far it looks like the most important things I'm going to have to teach the puppy is a really solid stay, stay out of motion, retrieve, drop it, heel, and come. I love Leerburgs training methods if anyone knows who that is on this forum. Any advice on where to start learning more about all of this?

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    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
      Do you hunt?

      Irishwhistler
      No I don't. Never been interested. Just interested in dog training haha

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    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by tuliprox View Post
      No I don't. Never been interested. Just interested in dog training haha

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      tuliprox,
      Not saying a non-hunter cannot become a gun dog trainer, but ye generally don't compose a symphony without learning to read music and having played basic scales many, many, many times. Ye have lot's o' homework to do and most owners o' quality bred dogs are not likely to entrust their gun dogs and themselves to ye until ye have studied long and hard. I am sending ye a list o' training materials that might help point ye in the right direction. It sounds like ye may have a good background on the concepts o' training, but certainly not the specific knowledge required to competently train gun dogs for clients. I would suggest getting a quality bred pup of the breed ye most likely spend time training and working with that dog from start to finish, but not until ye have done ye homework regarding gun dog training. Taking on a clients dog and ruining it will wreck ye reputation before ye even have a reputation. JMHO. Good luck. Now get cracking.

      I did not assemble this list of resources.

      Training program listings
      Postby hunt-chessies » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:30 pm

      This question seems to come up about 4-5 times a week and indicates a good understanding that making-it-up-as-you-go ain't the best way to reach your destination.

      There's maybe 20+ authors of such which include everything from puppy development to field trial style marking ability (perhaps a sticky someday for easy author googling). Some are deep, some are shallow, some are DVD, some are books, some are both. Some are better for true newbies and some are better if you know a little bit already.

      So the 'best one' is largely dictated by factors not explained by the poster when he/she asks the question. Most people don't know what they want or what they need - normal - so it can be helpful to drill into the program/author site and read through what a various program offers and match, as best you can, with your knowledge and interest.

      ONE month at a Professional gundog trainer is between 400-700 bucks and money well spent with a good trainer. That said - if that's not your path or money prohibits - accept that a single DVD at 20 bucks only gets you so far. Training doesn't have to cost a bunch but it does cost more than most might originally think - assuming you want to educate yourself.

      I've purchased DVD's of which very little appealed to me in terms of the training they presented but with each, I did learn something. So while it's best to follow a 'method' or 'course' of training it's still valuable to understand a different perspective.

      The BEST program today may not be the BEST program for you a year from now. To get the best investment in an initial purchase, I would think through your goals (as best you can) and associate that to what you believe a particular program to be about.

      * Am I waterfowling AND upland hunting
      * How many times per week am I willing to train
      * How committed am I
      * How much money can I justify
      * Do I think I'll accept the premise of e-collar training versus non-e-collar training
      * Do I know what I want my dog to be able to do (what is handling, what are blinds, how does that affect my hunting goals)
      * If I get a 3 DVD set that takes me from 8 weeks thru 18 months - will I realistically follow that program all the way through
      * Do I learn better by reading or watching
      * What's the difference between a Master Hunter and a Meat dog
      * Do I have a Lab, Chessie or Weimaraner
      * How much do I already know
      *ETC

      The point I hope to make is that choosing the right program is the 1st step in taking control of your training life and making informed decisions and commitments based on what you want - and are decided to achieve. The more you drill into methods and authors the more you become exposed to things not previously considered and new thoughts/questions arise before dropping the dollars.

      The list below prepared by Swampbilly1980 represents most of the material available today (without favour) and indicates DVD/Book or both. There really aren't any more tips and tricks to getting a program than there are to training a dog so hopefully this start on your research is valuable. Chances are if you enjoy retriever training and begin to find success - you'll utilize the methods and approaches of several authors.

      Puppies
      *Sound Beginnings by Jackie Mertens
      *Puppy Training by Bill Hillman


      American Hunting/Test/Trial
      *Mike Lardy-Total Retriever Training (DVD/Hard Copy Series)
      *Rick Stawski-Fowl Dawgs (DVD Series)
      *Evan Graham-SmartWorks (DVD Series/book series)
      *Danny Farmer/Judy Aycock-Problems and Solutions/Training Basics (DVD)
      *Chris Akin-Duck Dog Basics (DVD)
      *George Hickox-Upland & Retriever Training (DVD Series)
      *Butch Goodwin -Retrievers from the Inside Out. (CD/Hard Copy)
      *Bill Hillmann -Training a Retriever Puppy (DVD)
      *James Spencer-Retriever Train Series (Hard Copy)
      *Tom Dokken-Retriever Training (Hard Copy)
      *Rex Carr/Dave Rorem-Art /Science of Handling Retrievers (DVD/Hard Copy Set) & Carr Training Seminar (DVD Set)
      *Shawn Dustin-Retriever Fever (DVD Series)
      *Jim Dobbs-TriTronics Retriever Training (Hard Copy) & Trained Retrieve I&II (DVD)
      *Richard Wolters-Water Dog, Gun Dog, Game Dog (Hard Copy)
      *Tom Quinn's "The Working Retriever" (Hardcopy)
      *Mike Gould's "The Labrador Shooting Dog" (Hardcopy)




      British Style Hunting/Test
      *Robert Milner -Retriever Training (Series Hard Copy)
      *Mike Stewart -Wildrose Retriever Training (DVD/Hard Copy)
      *Martin Deely- Gundog Training( Hard Copy Series)
      *Vic Barlow –British training for American Retrievers (Hard Copy)
      * Susan Scales - Retriever Training the Modern Way (Hard Copy)

      Misc Gundog Training
      *Jackie Merten -Sound Beginnings Puppy/Young dog (Hard Copy)
      *John/Amy Dahl -Retriever Troubleshooting, The 10 minute Retriever (Hard Copy)
      *DL & Ann Walters -Training Retrievers to Handle (Hard Copy)
      *James Lamb Free -Training Your Retriever (Hard Copy)
      *Vickie Lamb (Trainer/Author/Contributor)
      Proudly owned by "HR A hunters dream of Westwind JH"

      I quote HNTFSH ****Hunting is a form of training but not the first wave of it. *****
      User avatar
      hunt-chessies
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      Location: Lusby MD

      Hope this helps give ye a starting point for study.


      Irishwhistler

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      Jdog (10-26-2017)

    6. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
      tuliprox,
      Not saying a non-hunter cannot become a gun dog trainer, but ye generally don't compose a symphony without learning to read music and having played basic scales many, many, many times. Ye have lot's o' homework to do and most owners o' quality bred dogs are not likely to entrust their gun dogs and themselves to ye until ye have studied long and hard. I am sending ye a list o' training materials that might help point ye in the right direction. It sounds like ye may have a good background on the concepts o' training, but certainly not the specific knowledge required to competently train gun dogs for clients. I would suggest getting a quality bred pup of the breed ye most likely spend time training and working with that dog from start to finish, but not until ye have done ye homework regarding gun dog training. Taking on a clients dog and ruining it will wreck ye reputation before ye even have a reputation. JMHO. Good luck. Now get cracking.

      I did not assemble this list of resources.

      Training program listings
      Postby hunt-chessies » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:30 pm

      This question seems to come up about 4-5 times a week and indicates a good understanding that making-it-up-as-you-go ain't the best way to reach your destination.

      There's maybe 20+ authors of such which include everything from puppy development to field trial style marking ability (perhaps a sticky someday for easy author googling). Some are deep, some are shallow, some are DVD, some are books, some are both. Some are better for true newbies and some are better if you know a little bit already.

      So the 'best one' is largely dictated by factors not explained by the poster when he/she asks the question. Most people don't know what they want or what they need - normal - so it can be helpful to drill into the program/author site and read through what a various program offers and match, as best you can, with your knowledge and interest.

      ONE month at a Professional gundog trainer is between 400-700 bucks and money well spent with a good trainer. That said - if that's not your path or money prohibits - accept that a single DVD at 20 bucks only gets you so far. Training doesn't have to cost a bunch but it does cost more than most might originally think - assuming you want to educate yourself.

      I've purchased DVD's of which very little appealed to me in terms of the training they presented but with each, I did learn something. So while it's best to follow a 'method' or 'course' of training it's still valuable to understand a different perspective.

      The BEST program today may not be the BEST program for you a year from now. To get the best investment in an initial purchase, I would think through your goals (as best you can) and associate that to what you believe a particular program to be about.

      * Am I waterfowling AND upland hunting
      * How many times per week am I willing to train
      * How committed am I
      * How much money can I justify
      * Do I think I'll accept the premise of e-collar training versus non-e-collar training
      * Do I know what I want my dog to be able to do (what is handling, what are blinds, how does that affect my hunting goals)
      * If I get a 3 DVD set that takes me from 8 weeks thru 18 months - will I realistically follow that program all the way through
      * Do I learn better by reading or watching
      * What's the difference between a Master Hunter and a Meat dog
      * Do I have a Lab, Chessie or Weimaraner
      * How much do I already know
      *ETC

      The point I hope to make is that choosing the right program is the 1st step in taking control of your training life and making informed decisions and commitments based on what you want - and are decided to achieve. The more you drill into methods and authors the more you become exposed to things not previously considered and new thoughts/questions arise before dropping the dollars.

      The list below prepared by Swampbilly1980 represents most of the material available today (without favour) and indicates DVD/Book or both. There really aren't any more tips and tricks to getting a program than there are to training a dog so hopefully this start on your research is valuable. Chances are if you enjoy retriever training and begin to find success - you'll utilize the methods and approaches of several authors.

      Puppies
      *Sound Beginnings by Jackie Mertens
      *Puppy Training by Bill Hillman


      American Hunting/Test/Trial
      *Mike Lardy-Total Retriever Training (DVD/Hard Copy Series)
      *Rick Stawski-Fowl Dawgs (DVD Series)
      *Evan Graham-SmartWorks (DVD Series/book series)
      *Danny Farmer/Judy Aycock-Problems and Solutions/Training Basics (DVD)
      *Chris Akin-Duck Dog Basics (DVD)
      *George Hickox-Upland & Retriever Training (DVD Series)
      *Butch Goodwin -Retrievers from the Inside Out. (CD/Hard Copy)
      *Bill Hillmann -Training a Retriever Puppy (DVD)
      *James Spencer-Retriever Train Series (Hard Copy)
      *Tom Dokken-Retriever Training (Hard Copy)
      *Rex Carr/Dave Rorem-Art /Science of Handling Retrievers (DVD/Hard Copy Set) & Carr Training Seminar (DVD Set)
      *Shawn Dustin-Retriever Fever (DVD Series)
      *Jim Dobbs-TriTronics Retriever Training (Hard Copy) & Trained Retrieve I&II (DVD)
      *Richard Wolters-Water Dog, Gun Dog, Game Dog (Hard Copy)
      *Tom Quinn's "The Working Retriever" (Hardcopy)
      *Mike Gould's "The Labrador Shooting Dog" (Hardcopy)




      British Style Hunting/Test
      *Robert Milner -Retriever Training (Series Hard Copy)
      *Mike Stewart -Wildrose Retriever Training (DVD/Hard Copy)
      *Martin Deely- Gundog Training( Hard Copy Series)
      *Vic Barlow –British training for American Retrievers (Hard Copy)
      * Susan Scales - Retriever Training the Modern Way (Hard Copy)

      Misc Gundog Training
      *Jackie Merten -Sound Beginnings Puppy/Young dog (Hard Copy)
      *John/Amy Dahl -Retriever Troubleshooting, The 10 minute Retriever (Hard Copy)
      *DL & Ann Walters -Training Retrievers to Handle (Hard Copy)
      *James Lamb Free -Training Your Retriever (Hard Copy)
      *Vickie Lamb (Trainer/Author/Contributor)
      Proudly owned by "HR A hunters dream of Westwind JH"

      I quote HNTFSH ****Hunting is a form of training but not the first wave of it. *****
      User avatar
      hunt-chessies
      Forum Moderator

      Posts: 1373
      Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:44 am
      Location: Lusby MD

      Hope this helps give ye a starting point for study.


      Irishwhistler
      Thank you for the list! I'll definitely look into it. Honestly, I don't know how hard my friend is going to work at this, so we'll see how far we get. I'm definitely going to be doing as much research as I can and trying as hard as I can though. I'll keep you guys posted on our progress!

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    7. #6
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      Sorry, I don't know how to edit my post on Tapatalk. But I don't think my friends puppy is one that was bred specifically for hunting. I keep meaning to ask him where he got him. He's a pretty docile puppy. He does look like a purebred, healthy lab though.

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    8. #7
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      You don't specify where you live but if you are in a warmer area, you should get to a Hunt test this fall/ winter to watch and intermingle w/ handlers. If in the north, it'll likely be March or April at the earliest before there are tests. Go to EntryExpress.net to see the schedule. You'll have to do a search according to venue/ state.
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    9. #8
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      For sure... go to a Hunt Test (or Field Trial) and go to the major stakes. Master (in HT's) Amateur or Open in FT's. It will blow you away.

      Breeding makes a huge difference. After you've watched the Master stake, then drop down to Junior and even Senior and see if you can tell which dogs have the right DNA and which ones don't.

      When you've had enough posts to send and receive Private Messages... you'll probably get more from us.

    10. #9
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      Know nothing about training for hunt trials but what I do know is training a lab is very different than a GSD. Have had both and had to go back to training, for me, to work appropriately with the GSD since up to that point I'd only had labs. Of course, the basics, potty training, sit, down, etc., are pretty much the same. With labs train with patience, praise, patience, treats, patience, repetition and patience. Oh, did I say patience. Always train with love and end on a positive note even if it's as small as the dog responding to it's name.
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    12. #10
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      Irishwhistler had a plethora of info

      The working retriever is a good book he mentioned. IMO, focus more on your skill rather than the marketing and referrals. Your abilities and knowledge will bring people to you.

      It's really important to know the "fundamentals" being that of dogs and the "pack order". As a matter of fact, there is a book with a german shepherd on the front published in the 70's or so about "The pack" going deep into the lineage of dogs with wolves and understanding how that is incorporated with training and obedience. Read that one. I believe it's called " the pack order ". Then go into some training books/DVD's. Get your roots deep so that you understand how dogs learn, react, and all about the pack mentality. All in all, if you're not pack leader in every session with every dog, or group of dogs, then you'll know that you've still got more learning to do. Just keep reading.

      Also, it's just as much about training dogs as it is their owners. If they can't continue at home- that which you may be able to teach, then that can be a problem. So, the dog owner needs to have an overview (cliff notes ) version of how to be pack leader in their home. If they are not, your clients will be short lived becuase of frustration. While you can't be there all the time, the owner needs to be able to take on the role that you are setting in their space and how the owner conveys that. From feeding, routines, training and interaction with dogs and the public. What will,amdog do for you in a room full of dogs at the Vet's office? How about in a room with just dogs and you, are you the pack leader? All valid questions to ask oneself before training as I did.

      As far as Hunting Dog books go, you can't go wrong with Water Dog by Richard Walters. Less than $20 bucks on amazon.

      It all takes time, but if serious, a great goal.

      Good luck and take the advice, it has helped me immensely over the past two decades of obedience and field training.
      Last edited by Jdog; 10-26-2017 at 11:35 PM. Reason: spelling

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