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  1. #1
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    Dealing with high-rollers

    I have a good friend who has an incredible field bred lab who is a balls-to-the-wall, gonzo hard-charger. He's an amazing marking dog, (lots of Cosmo in the pedigree) and he is a thrill to watch. There's just something about a dog that will blast off the line as fast on a blind retrieve as he does on marks. When he hits the water, he throws up a tidal wave. Just amazingly talented.

    But there's a cloud behind every silver-lining and he's been a challenge to train. He's had problems with line manners (duh!) and when they try to fix those, his stopping on the whistle and handling falls apart. And if they get those things hammered out, he starts freezing on birds.

    My friend attended a seminar recently and got to chat with a couple of highly respected trainers. She wrote me a long email which I thought I'd summarize and let you guys comment.

    First, all the experts there agreed that the really hot field dogs can be highly rewarding. Big challenges, but big pay-off, too. With regard to dealing with the manic behavior, they emphasized that the handler must be very deliberately calm, slow, smooth and confident. Lots of nagging and chatter are very counter-productive with these dogs, especially. (I guess I'll have to get a handle on my Tourettes!) Another point, these dogs don't need mark after mark after mark in training. We know they can mark. We usually are throwing marks because it's just fun to watch our dogs succeed, but this is not necessarily what the dog needs.

    For a dog with issues like his (and, I'd say also for Rocket Dog) an effective approach could be to desensitize. They suggested putting the dog up on a hay bale, in a down position to start, where he could see all the action, hear the duck calls and guns, watch the fliers being shot... but just have him remain there and watch, and watch and watch, then watch some more. She did this, and if he left the bale, he got a correction and was put back in place.

    One thing that's true of her dog and mine is that they both will peer around and past us to scope out the test... a true sign that we matter very little to the dogs who only have feathers on their mind. So they have to be taught that we are the ones who run the show, not them. I've been working with Rocket Dog on eye-contact for some time, but she's introduced it with her dog. If the dog isn't paying attention to the handler, all things stop. She started waiting her dog out, until he looked at her, whereupon she didn't say anything but just briefly touched his head... (I think this is a variation of Hillmann giving the dog a stimulation with a very low 2 via e-collar. Something that just says, "yes... that's right. Good dog.") A calm, tactile assurance. She was told that when heeling to a distraction (like going to the line in training), stop and place her body between the dog and his line of sight until he makes eye contact, she then gives the reassurance, then moves forward. If no eye-contact, she waits him out. This has really impacted her dog. He spent a bunch of time on the hay bale and was significantly calmer by the time he left it. The next phase will have the dog sitting on the bale instead of being in a down position. Then the next transition will be to a mat, on a down, then a SIT position. Until the dog can sit at ease with lots of action going on around him.

    The other thing they suggested was to mix it up in training. Send the dog on a mark, stop him... handle him to a pile of bumpers. These pros also emphasized that always, in every setting, especially in the field, obedience has to be perfect. The high-rollers will degrade very quickly if anything is blown off and allowed to slide. It was interesting that these pros didn't recommend a lot of pressure (only a correction for leaving the bale/mat/position on the line, etc.) but only gradual desensitization.

    Her situation, like mine is about rehabbing a dog who has already got problems controlling their enthusiasm. It's not about training a puppy (though I'm sure there are overlapping and parallel considerations.)

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    Thank you for this post. I have heard of these strategies but needed a refresher. Elle has been cleared to start field work so we have been out the past two Sundays. The first she was fairly good because we kept the marks short. Yesterday was a different story. I came away from training with a whole list of problems that are going to take some serious training to correct. She has not been forced so that is at the top of the list. She was working on steadiness last Fall, that has gone completely out the window. She was unbelievably noisy! She has learned to count and on the fourth retrieve would not listen and come in even with the long line. I can not believe that this is my sweet compliant little dog. What a monster! I have a couple of good amateur trainers I will be contacting this week. One has a puppy by the same sire as Elle and he is ready for the conditioned retrieve so we will get started on that. I will talk to Don as well to see what time he has to take her once the weather is a little warmer. The spoiling is coming to an end!

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    I've been dealing with many of the issues you describe here with Brooks, who is not what you would consider to be "field bred", but is a highly driven retriever. As you know, my knowledge and skill in field training are pretty limited, but I've had a lot of help over the past year, and we've made a lot of progress.

    I have found that Brooks responds much better when I stay calm and even when giving commands. Yelling and shouting tend to just spin him up. I talk to him in very conversational tones, which helps him to remain calm and focused.

    My ability to field train is pretty limited, We've been training once a month with the First State Retriever Club since October, which basically would simulate a hunt test environment. Lot's of dogs/handlers, holding blinds, duck calls, gun shots, real birds, etc. Brooks was a complete ass getting to the line. Pulling, lunging, vocalizing. At the meeting in January, I took a bag of treats with me. As we walked/heeled from the truck to the first of three holding blinds if he pulled or forged ahead, I'd stop and wait for him to come back to heel. Once he was sitting and focused on me, "yes, good heel" and treat. When we made it to the first blind he wanted to peek around to see what was going on, especially when he'd hear a duck call and or a gunshot. I'd give him a quick leash pop and calmly say "heel". Once he was back at heel and focused on me "yes, good heel" and treat. We had our third meeting since them, and while still not perfect by any means, he is much better, and the vocalizing has almost vanished. We start training with a group on Mondays in April, so it will give me much more opportunity to work on these things.

    At our meeting this past weekend, Brooks did an excellent job with 2 land series. The first was 3 single marks, the longest being a bit over 200 yards. I also chose to do the blind, which was outside the marks. We've been working on sit whistle's and casting for about 3 months, and he's been doing well with sight blinds. He stayed on the line when I sent him, and responded immediately to the sit whistle, and casted as I directed him. I got him to the pile of bumpers with 2 sit whistles and 2 casts. Unfortunately he would not pick up one of the bumpers, I'm not sure if it was due to the previous dog peeing on/near the pile, of the fact I haven't used bumpers in a while. I normally use Dokkens. I called him back, and we heeled to within about 10 yards of the pile and I had him sit, then told him to "fetch" which he did. For full disclosure, the blind was set up about 100 yards from the line, and I walked up to about 50 yards from the pile of bumpers.

    On the second series Brooks did a long single mark, over 200 yards. I chose to do the other two marks as a double, the mark to the left of the line was about 60 yards, and the right mark was close to 100 yards. The left mark was called first, with the right mark being the go bird. Brooks handled both without any problems. I was pretty proud of him, this was the first successful double he's done at a group training day. A guy came up to me who had seen Brooks at all five training days we've done and complemented us for how far we've come since that first day, and what a nice dog Brooks was.

    I would also agree with you regarding doing multiple marked retrieves. Yes, it's definitely fun to watch, and it does give you a certain sense of satisfaction. One of the things I've learned is that a retrieve is made up of a lot of steps, there are many things that need to happen from the moment you heel to the line, to the dog delivering to hand. Each one of these things needs to be taught and trained. After my trip to Connecticut to train with Irishwhistler back in September, I started work on the mechanics of the retrieve. I do long marks maybe once per week. I do a lot of different drills, mixing things up every day. One day I'll work on steadiness on the line. I'll have Brooks sit at heel, then I'll walk around and throw 3 or 4 Dokkens in different directions. Then I'll go pick them up and toss them back towards, or over Brooks as he sits. I'll repeat this several times, but leaving one or two bumpers and will reward Brooks allowing him to retrieve them. There are times I'll also send him for all four, basically quad marks. The next day I might work on sit whistles and casting. Next day I'd double marks that are fairly close together. I'll mix it up to which mark I send him for first. I've also been working on marks into heavy cover, forcing Brooks to really hunt and work.

    I never really understood how much hard work, time and effort goes into training retriever to a high level until I started training Brooks. It's been a lot of fun and is very gratifying watching him evolve into a pretty good retriever!

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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
    Thank you for this post. I have heard of these strategies but needed a refresher. Elle has been cleared to start field work so we have been out the past two Sundays. The first she was fairly good because we kept the marks short. Yesterday was a different story. I came away from training with a whole list of problems that are going to take some serious training to correct. She has not been forced so that is at the top of the list. She was working on steadiness last Fall, that has gone completely out the window. She was unbelievably noisy! She has learned to count and on the fourth retrieve would not listen and come in even with the long line. I can not believe that this is my sweet compliant little dog. What a monster! I have a couple of good amateur trainers I will be contacting this week. One has a puppy by the same sire as Elle and he is ready for the conditioned retrieve so we will get started on that. I will talk to Don as well to see what time he has to take her once the weather is a little warmer. The spoiling is coming to an end!
    I am so relieved that Elle is much recovered from her awful injury. All the training tips/books/videos/seminars don't really address the position the both of you are in. I mean... young, spirited retriever... serious injury... long recovery period... then back to hot-d@mn-oh-baby-hubba-hubba-hooray-birds! You're charting your own new territory with this girl. Keep us posted on how it goes.

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    I've been dealing with many of the issues you describe here with Brooks, who is not what you would consider to be "field bred", but is a highly driven retriever. As you know, my knowledge and skill in field training are pretty limited, but I've had a lot of help over the past year, and we've made a lot of progress.

    I have found that Brooks responds much better when I stay calm and even when giving commands. Yelling and shouting tend to just spin him up. I talk to him in very conversational tones, which helps him to remain calm and focused. Oh, you bet. I've finally realized that the super-eager retrievers can get us into an upward positive feedback loop that just winds us both higher and higher. Very counter-productive and so easy to get sucked in to.

    My ability to field train is pretty limited, We've been training once a month with the First State Retriever Club since October, which basically would simulate a hunt test environment. Lot's of dogs/handlers, holding blinds, duck calls, gun shots, real birds, etc. Brooks was a complete ass getting to the line. Pulling, lunging, vocalizing. Sounds very familiar. At the meeting in January, I took a bag of treats with me. As we walked/heeled from the truck to the first of three holding blinds if he pulled or forged ahead, I'd stop and wait for him to come back to heel. Once he was sitting and focused on me, "yes, good heel" and treat. When we made it to the first blind he wanted to peek around to see what was going on, especially when he'd hear a duck call and or a gunshot. I'd give him a quick leash pop and calmly say "heel". Once he was back at heel and focused on me "yes, good heel" and treat. We had our third meeting since them, and while still not perfect by any means, he is much better, and the vocalizing has almost vanished. During the time we've been laid off... what with Bill's passing then serious, crazy deep snow... her squeaking is terrible again. I believe by the eye-contact plus going slower and calmer, we can recover some of her poise. We start training with a group on Mondays in April, so it will give me much more opportunity to work on these things.

    At our meeting this past weekend, Brooks did an excellent job with 2 land series. The first was 3 single marks, the longest being a bit over 200 yards. I also chose to do the blind, which was outside the marks. We've been working on sit whistle's and casting for about 3 months, and he's been doing well with sight blinds. He stayed on the line when I sent him, and responded immediately to the sit whistle, and casted as I directed him. I got him to the pile of bumpers with 2 sit whistles and 2 casts. Unfortunately he would not pick up one of the bumpers, I'm not sure if it was due to the previous dog peeing on/near the pile, of the fact I haven't used bumpers in a while. I normally use Dokkens. I think most of us use bumpers because they're cheaper, plus when you have a couple of dozen of them, they pack into a box or drawer easier. You might want to get a few so that Brooks learns that they're as much a part of the game as the Dokkens are. I called him back, and we heeled to within about 10 yards of the pile and I had him sit, then told him to "fetch" which he did. For full disclosure, the blind was set up about 100 yards from the line, and I walked up to about 50 yards from the pile of bumpers.

    On the second series Brooks did a long single mark, over 200 yards. I chose to do the other two marks as a double, the mark to the left of the line was about 60 yards, and the right mark was close to 100 yards. The left mark was called first, with the right mark being the go bird. Brooks handled both without any problems. I was pretty proud of him, this was the first successful double he's done at a group training day. A guy came up to me who had seen Brooks at all five training days we've done and complemented us for how far we've come since that first day, and what a nice dog Brooks was. Sounds like you have! Good weather coming. You're really close to the skill set Brooks would need to run a Senior stake in an AKC Hunt Test. No rush... they get absolutely wound at HT's and can totally lose their minds. But it's exciting to hear about how well the two of you are doing.

    I would also agree with you regarding doing multiple marked retrieves. Yes, it's definitely fun to watch, and it does give you a certain sense of satisfaction. One of the things I've learned is that a retrieve is made up of a lot of steps, there are many things that need to happen from the moment you heel to the line. (I would add... it involves the moment you raise the tailgate and invite your dog to exit his crate. We have worked on lay-down-and-hush-up before I reach for the door of her crate.) to the dog delivering to hand. Each one of these things needs to be taught and trained. After my trip to Connecticut to train with Irishwhistler back in September, I started work on the mechanics of the retrieve. I do long marks maybe once per week. I do a lot of different drills, mixing things up every day. One day I'll work on steadiness on the line. I'll have Brooks sit at heel, then I'll walk around and throw 3 or 4 Dokkens in different directions. Then I'll go pick them up and toss them back towards, or over Brooks as he sits. I'll repeat this several times, but leaving one or two bumpers and will reward Brooks allowing him to retrieve them. Cool. Maybe I'll try this. (If the snow ever melts...) There are times I'll also send him for all four, basically quad marks. The next day I might work on sit whistles and casting. Next day I'd double marks that are fairly close together. I'll mix it up to which mark I send him for first. I've also been working on marks into heavy cover, forcing Brooks to really hunt and work. Exactly. One of the things in the HT/FT rule books is the judges are evaluating what is referred to as "courage", the willingness of the dog to deal with terrain, cover and other elements.

    I never really understood how much hard work, time and effort goes into training retriever to a high level until I started training Brooks. It's been a lot of fun and is very gratifying watching him evolve into a pretty good retriever!
    Brooks is a really well-balanced dog (hmmm... might be due to his breeder... maybe?) and can do it all. Labs are such cool dogs. But yeah, field work challenges the dog and handler in so many ways that maybe other venues don't.

  8. #6
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    Barry, you mentioned your visit with IW and how valuable it was. Don't get me wrong... I love living in the shadow of the Sierras, minutes from Lake Tahoe and all that. But we are not ate up with different pros. I have really appreciated the pro I've used, who has really gotten me back into the retriever game and helped me with Rocket Dog. Not to mention taught me a lot about understanding a HT set-up and given me a lot of handling tips. But hearing about how much you got out of going to Connecticut makes me wish I was on the Atlantic Coast. No matter how much you know, it is so helpful (I'd even say essential) to get fresh eyes on you and your dog from time to time.

    I have been communicating with Bill Hillmann about my difficulties with Rocket Dog and I think I will be driving down to TX to visit with him. It's a 3 day drive. Very daunting. Make an 8 hour drive through absolute desolation between Reno and Las Vegas then another 4 hours through relative desolation between LV and Phoenix. Then it's 15 hours through west TX (where the only interesting features are the phone poles and dead armadillos lining the interstate) which I'll probably divide into 2 days if there is any place habitable to rest for a night. Yeah, you guys on the East Coast have it sort of easy relatively speaking.

    I don't know if any of you visit Bill Hillmann's website, but in addition to training videos and commentaries, he and his wife Mary occasionally put up their thoughts about people and events. You get the sense that they are both really fine folks. I think Mr. Hillmann will be there to assess RD and me and give me his thoughts. (Ugh! Not intimidating in the least!!!) Then I'll be learning and working the training plan with a colleague of his.

    I have run no HT's so far this year due to family circumstances, plus illness, plus snow and/or other bad weather. But that is OK. I need three more Senior passes and those could come very quickly if I had her line manners under control. If we were working as a team, with her attention on me, we could/would be working on Master concepts in training.

    But RD is a cautionary tale that deep, basic obedience is foundational and nothing else matters until that is nailed down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Brooks is a really well-balanced dog (hmmm... might be due to his breeder... maybe?) and can do it all. Labs are such cool dogs. But yeah, field work challenges the dog and handler in so many ways that maybe other venues don't.
    It's absolutely his breeding, and it's why I was so excited when she told me I could have one of her puppies. Brooks is everything you could want in a Labrador, and now that he's approaching his second birthday, he's really starting to show signs of maturing. One of the most consistent compliment I get from people is how much Brooks loves to work for me. He is always ready, and he's a happy worker. You can just see it in his eyes.

    One of the things I do when we are "playing" retrieving, usually with a Frisbee or a Kong toy, is I won't release him to retrieve until he makes eye contact with me. I'll put Brooks in a sit/stay and walk away from him maybe 30-40 feet and throw the Frisbee. Sometimes I'll release him to retrieve it, others I will call him to heel before I release him. I will also make him sit/stay and I will go get the Frisbee, the go back to him, or call him to me. Regardless of how I do it, he doesn't get released until he looks and makes eye contact. Even though this is play to him, it is instilling steadiness, and keep his focus on me waiting for me to tell him what to do.

    I'm going to start working Brooks with bumpers again, especially on blind retrieves. I have a bucket of orange bumpers, but just haven't been using them. I'm also hoping to find another group to train with, so we can get out twice a week for realistic training.

    One of the great things from my visit with Irishwhistler was the level of feedback he gave me. I told him to not pull any punches or worry about hurting my feelings. I went to him with a completely open mind looking for help to get us moving in the right direction, as I was really struggling with Brooks field training. He sent me home with a plan which I feel put us on the right track, and is why Brooks is doing so well with his training.

    I lived in Utah and New Mexico for 7 and 4 years respectively. I know how bad and isolated some of those drives can be out there. I can remember when I drove through New Mexico to report to Holloman AFB the first time. I was driving across this stretch of road and hadn't seen another car for quite some time. The road was dead straight and went to a pinpoint on the horizon as far as I could see in front of me. I looked in my mirror and it was the same to the rear. All I could think was this would be a really crappy place to break down!!!

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    I'm sitting here w/ the last of Brook's little sibs (10 of the little shits!!!! Whodathunk his almost 8 yo mom would have *10*! Was spayed 2 wks ago, btw!). She went w/ me on a business trip today due to necessity (too young for kennel, needs to be fed/ pottied often, etc) and was a complete angel but holy Mother.... I've not slept the past 2 nights since her last brother left. I hung onto both as they needed working homes. TG, she has a working home coming this weekend too! LOL. I think the biggest mistake breeders (esp the newer ones) can make is to place puppies based on 1hr visits (or less). We knew Brooks was the performance type and Barry and I had several chats to be SURE he understood/ wanted that. As I always say, good things come to those who wait.

    Turbo (Brooks' dad) just turned 4 in lt Feb and is already 2 for 2 for Utility obed and lacks one Q for his Excellent Agility legs. Should be ready in minimal time for SH and TDX too. He's stamped himself on many of the pups. So my message is "know and love" your pedigree... Envy is my cra-cra here yet Kanzi is SO cool/ tractable. We'll see if G-Ma comes out in Kanzi's pups but I'm ready for just about anything here at this point!
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    WindyCanyon,

    Barry and I spoke at length twice this week and I'll guarantee THAT BROOKS earns his JH this season and likely his HRC SHR as well. GO TEAM BROOKS👍.

    Cheers,
    THE DOG WHISTLER 🍀
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    WindyCanyon,

    Barry and I spoke at length twice this week and I'll guarantee brooks earns his JH this season and likely his HRC SHR as well. GO TEAM BROOKS.

    Cheers,
    THE DOG WHISTLER 
    Looking forward to this journey!!!!!

 



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