Training my first hunting dog.

[a.curtin2011]

Michael, thanks for your note. I don't have any interest in using force fetch. I've been using the same principle the obedience people use teaching "take it" and have just made it "fetch." She'll pick most things up and hand them to me. I have mixed thoughts on e-collars. Like choke chains and pinch collars, etc. The tools are all about the hands they are in. And I know e-collars have come A LONG way - it doesn't have to mean I zapped my dog, a warning tone or low buzz may suffice. I have not written them off, but yes, I'd like to be able to say we did it without using one.
It also means I need to find a better way to get her attention when she decides something else is more interesting than me, lol.
All that being said, I definitely need some kind of program, bc otherwise I really feel like I'm just "wandering" around and teaching whatever sounds fun. Which I know is not the way to a good foundation. I don't know if I can take a program built with FF and e-collars in mind and just work around those parts or not.

Work has had me traveling, so I've been very remiss in my "diary."
Hailey has become quite reliable at "heel" when she knows retrieving will be involved (read-I don't work on leash walking much). We have a duck-scented tennis ball that I've started taking out in the evenings once it's fairly dark out. We do some retrieves with this so she has to use her nose. If I don't see a fall, I can't direct her to it, so the theory is, she needs to learn how to find it herself. She's already a problem solver / free thinker anyways, lol. These are "exercises" the local hunter/trainer has given us to work on.
She is loving the swimming.

We've started on "hold." I managed to find a video or two and read some "articles" on how to teach it. Most of the training we've done has been something I could reward. I'm not sure how to reward hold - I can't exactly give her a treat if I'm wanting her to hold something in her mouth. So I wasn't sure how it would translate (she might think I'm rewarding for "give"), but it was all I knew to start with. So I had her "fetch" a favorite toy off the ground and then say "hold" before asking her to "give" and then rewarding with a high-value treat. This was just seconds. On days she didn't seem to be getting that I would actually place it in her mouth and then hold my hand around her muzzle while saying "hold." I wasn't convinced she was making the association but she has started holding the ball/bumper when returning to me. So I say "good hold" and wait a few seconds and then ask for her to give it. Then praise. I'm just building up the amount of time I let her hold it, always trying to get ask for it before she decides to drop it.
If she does drop it, I have her sit and then hold it in front of her and say "fetch." When she takes it I just lightly cup my hand under her jaw and say "hold," wait a few seconds and then "give." This seems to be working for us.

Thoughts on water entry? I see a lot of photos of dogs leaping into the water. Hailey does this too. However I read somewhere that this wasn't a safe practice as dogs might hit something under the water they don't see. It seems like a valid concern...but I'm not sure. Of course, duck hunting, it's probably going to be a less spectacular "leap" over the side of a boat..?

Weight. How do you keep weight on your dog(s)? She is literally running it off. She's 45# at 6 months and while not skin and bones, I can see more of her ribs than I want to. She is on a high-quality dog food. 34% protein / 16% fat and she's getting 4 cups per day. I'd try working / playing with her less, but she's just that high energy. Do I just keep upping her food? Is there something I should consider adding? I've never had this issue with a dog before, lol.

[michael m]

[QUOTE=a.curtin2011;28677] don't know if I can take a program built with FF and e-collars in mind and just work around those parts or not.
I was not sure either, that is why I mentioned it. I do know that without the e-collar, a lot of the "corrections at a distance" will need to be done in some other manner and not sure if training programs emphasizing e-collar use would address this.


I'm not sure how to reward hold - I can't exactly give her a treat if I'm wanting her to hold something in her mouth. So I wasn't sure how it would translate (she might think I'm rewarding for "give"),
Actually, you are rewarding for "give" but only at the time that you issue the command. Keep praising during the hold and if she drops it, correct by replacing the item in her mouth. It appears that you are starting with short duration of "hold" at first and "tapping under her chin" if she starts to drop the item, and that is exactly how the dog will learn what success with the "hold" command means. The dog is learning not to release the fetched item until you command that she give it to you.
Think of this much like the "Sit/Stay" command. Dog doesn't sit and then move when they decide... it is only on your command that the dog should move from that position.
QUOTE]

[Sue]

I also want to mention that EvanG is only concerned with field trial level dogs. He looks down upon what are referred to often as "meat dogs." And the old school force fetch, stick fetch trainers are slow to change.

Some links you might be interested in:

Robert Milner's DuckHill Kennels - Positive Gundog Training
Has links to some videos on positive training

Teaching Fetch Using Positive Reinforcement Techniques - Whole Dog Journal Article
Training a retrieve without harsh methods.

BillHillmann.net - Retriever Training with Bill Hillmann
Bill Hillmann's blog. Has some useful videos.

Keep in mind Hillmann does use an ecollar, at its lowest effective setting, but repeatedly states the (not so) obvious to first time users. The dog needs to know the command BEFORE using the e-collar.

Books:
Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds (Karen Pryor Clicker Books): Jim Barry, Mary Emmen: 9781890948337: Amazon.com: Books
Training a hunting retriever with the clicker

Sporting Dog and Retriever Training: The Wildrose Way: Raising a Gentlemans Gundog for Home and Field: Mike Stewart, Paul Fersen, John Newman: 9780789324467: Amazon.com: Books



The problem with techniques like forced fetch (with ear pinch or toe squeezing) and the so called stick fetch, where the trainer whales on the dog with a stick as punishment, is that it was developed long ago, to train dogs without a natural tendency to retrieve, such as spaniels. And it was long before the benefits of positive reinforcement was ever thought about, let alone used.

[EvanG]

I also want to mention that EvanG is only concerned with field trial level dogs. He looks down upon what are referred to often as "meat dogs." And the old school force fetch, stick fetch trainers are slow to change.

Sue,

What color is the sky in your world? Nothing you have claimed about me is true. Of all the trainers you have mentioned, all are old school/badly out dated except Hillman and I. I've trained hundreds of Gundogs and even produced a DVD titled "Gundog Essentials" for non-handling Gundogs. But there is clearly not enough room here to list what you don't know about me and my method.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Live dangerously; get a little knowledge.

EvanG

[a.curtin2011]

I've worked with horses for enough years to know there is something to learn from everyone. You take the pieces that work for you and your horse/dog. I don't think you have to "take" the whole program if there are parts you don't like, or your animal doesn't respond well to. That being said, *I* have never developed a program and I haven't trained hundreds of horses, and certainly not even one hunting dog at this point, lol. I've just learned what I've had success with and even then, each animal is an individual. The horse I own now, I've spent the past 2 years throwing half of what I know out the window and learning to approach from a different angle, bc everything I and the trainers I work with consider "normal" - he doesn't respond to in the desired way.
So, I'm learning what Hailey responds to. My personal view, and there will be people who disagree, is that training is an experiment. You try the pieces and find what works for the individual animal.
My apologies for being a bit redundant.

Friday after work Hailey went swimming. Some geese flew overhead while she was retrieving - she was watching them while swimming back to shore and once out of the water started to "follow" them instead of returning straight to me. She kept holding the bumper and did return it to me after standing and watching them for a minute. So, the negative is she didn't return straight to me when there was a distraction. On the upside, I'm glad to see she's interested in the live birds and is smart enough to look up, lol.

I spent a fair bit of time with my in-laws over the weekend. My FIL figured out he could get Hailey to heel and stay while he threw a tennis ball. I also taught him how to get her to hand him the ball instead of throwing it at his feet. He thought this was great, but I noticed he let a "question" slip into his voice and by Sunday afternoon she was blowing through his stay command. So Sunday evening she and I did some one on one work and I threw several "no birds." We worked on "hold" and I also decided on a hand signal to use with it. It wasn't perfect, bc she would run past me when returning, but then she would come around and sit and hold. So i just need to be consistent and repetitive enough to make this a habit / quicker response. The last couple of times I started further extending the hold - I walked away a few feet and then circled around her without her moving or dropping the ball. The point of hold (for me) is so that I/the hunter has time to deal with their firearm, etc. before accepting a bird (especially a cripple), so I want to start slowly simulating that - doing things while she holds rather than just standing there and waiting. I was very pleased with this.

Took one of the ducks out of the freezer and put in the fridge to thaw so I can take the wings off tonight and wrap them around a canvas bumper to get her used to the feathers in her mouth. My plan is to put her on a check-line and do some fetch with the body in close quarters (so just having her pick it up and hand it to me). Then build from there. I'm just not sure whether to leave the body thawed or re-freeze it. How long will it keep in the fridge before it's too yucky to continue using for training? So, other than going ahead and introducing the feel of feathers, I think we have plenty to focus on and now just want to make everything "tighter" - make her more solid on these individual pieces and our basic obedience before adding anything else new.
She's a fast learner, and I get excited and have a tendency to want to rush, so I know I need to work very hard to make sure I'm not doing that. I want a reliable dog, not a sometimes dog.
On my to-do list, decide on a program to help guide me, bc I do need something.

[IRISHWISTLER]

Sue,
Your remarks regarding Evan Graham could not be more "off the mark". To paint Evan as some heavy handed trainer is just not true. Your "understanding" of stick fetch as a process wherein the trainer "whales" on the dog is again simply not true.

Evan Graham is among the most well versed and prolific writers on the training of retrievers. Evan has most thoroughly explained the concept of the applicationon of "pressure" as it pertains to the training of K9's and none of his techniques advocate anything that would cause injury to a dog.

Even Mike Stewart who's book SPORTING DOG AND RETRIEVER TRAINING THE WILDROSE WAY you reference, now includes material specific to the use of the e-collar for addressing
training problems that he suggests may not be able to be addressed using strictly "positive" based training methods, Stewart having been one of the main detractors of the use of the e-collar as a training tool in the not too distant past.

I would suggest you have lot's of homework to do before you paint with a brush that is obviously much wider than your experience base.

And for the record, I incorporate training concepts advocated by Robert Milner, Mike Stewart, Vic Barlow and Karen Pryor, but I also use many advocated by Mike Lardy and Evan Graham. I don't blindly "follow" any one trainer, rather, I apply what I feel is the best they all have to offer and use them to train with a success based model, success for the dog being key. My dogs have been clicker trained, collar conditioned, forece fetch conditioned, and yes I have used a heeling stick with them (never to beat them). My dogs have also been highly motivated and proven field performers that I consider part of my family.

Sue, you sound like your heart is in the right place regarding your love for dogs, just realize that training with pressure need not be cruel nor injurious to them.

Sincerely
IRISHWHISTLER

[EvanG]

Yes, we all do need a solid guide. As a pro, you don't know what your next client will bring you - except that it will be a dog! Each one is an individual ... more or less sensitive than the next, smarter or dumber than another, more or less talented, more or less moody. Still, you, as a pro, must be savvy enough to discern that, and still keep focused on how to adapt the necessary training to that dog. There are standard skills a working retriever needs in order to be an asset in game conservation. Many decades of time, and countless trainer hours have produced and refined training programs through which this is effectively done with the most dogs possible.

If a given pro is no better at doing all that than anyone else, about all he will contribute to his profession will be to make more people suspect of other pros. The program I have produced was learned from two Hall of Fame trainers, and has undergone continual refinement over a course of 36+ years. Having successfully trained several hundred dogs I'm not experimenting with dogs.

Even the adaptation I do each day with different dogs is not experimental because of the depth of knowledge and the extent of experience I have with training these dogs. For someone who lacks that knowledge and/or experience, "trying this and that" with a dog really is an experiment because they don't have a strong baseline to work from. They really don't know what to expect from their efforts, and so they are truly only experimenting.

One thing a newer trainer can expect from the best programs is insight from an author who can effectively communicate more than just an "ABC" book of instructions, but also things to look for in a dog to read how well he is digesting the information. Through this the student learns to begin reading dogs. Only a few programs are authored by someone with that experience. Fewer yet are authored by someone with adequate skill to convey them to people. As the old line goes, "You must choose. But choose wisely."

Of course there is one more question you should ask. Who will be there for you to ask questions when they arise? Good luck.

EvanG

[Sue]

My remarks in blue:

Your remarks regarding Evan Graham could not be more "off the mark". To paint Evan as some heavy handed trainer is just not true. Your "understanding" of stick fetch as a process wherein the trainer "whales" on the dog is again simply not true.

I've seen his videos. The dogs are not happy, willing workers.

Evan Graham is among the most well versed and prolific writers on the training of retrievers. Evan has most thoroughly explained the concept of the applicationon of "pressure" as it pertains to the training of K9's and none of his techniques advocate anything that would cause injury to a dog.

Injury and the use of unnecessary force are two different things.

Even Mike Stewart who's book SPORTING DOG AND RETRIEVER TRAINING THE WILDROSE WAY you reference, now includes material specific to the use of the e-collar for addressing
training problems that he suggests may not be able to be addressed using strictly "positive" based training methods, Stewart having been one of the main detractors of the use of the e-collar as a training tool in the not too distant past.

I do not object to the use of an e-collar. By no means. In fact, it's almost a necessity. I DO object to stick fetch and ear/toe pinch training. A Lab should not have to be subjected to that type of "pressure" as force based trainers like to call it. Sorry. A true Lab has the enthusiasm for retrieving, and is willing to please. So much so that they are used in multiple venues, including guide dogs, detection dogs, search and rescue, etc., etc. If the breeding of the so called field Lab in the US has wiped that drive and desire out of them, than there is none to blame but the trainers, who are using outdated methods.

Also please note it was the OP who indicated he/she didn't want to use an E-collar.

I would suggest you have lot's of homework to do before you paint with a brush that is obviously much wider than your experience base.

Please don't use apostrophes when writing a plural. One of my pet peeves. And you know nothing about me.

And for the record, I incorporate training concepts advocated by Robert Milner, Mike Stewart, Vic Barlow and Karen Pryor, but I also use many advocated by Mike Lardy and Evan Graham. I don't blindly "follow" any one trainer, rather, I apply what I feel is the best they all have to offer and use them to train with a success based model, success for the dog being key. My dogs have been clicker trained, collar conditioned, forece fetch conditioned, and yes I have used a heeling stick with them (never to beat them). My dogs have also been highly motivated and proven field performers that I consider part of my family.

A heeling stick is one thing. That's used to guide the rear end into place, since a lot of dogs have no concept of what their hind end is doing. Using a stick to hit the dog to force a retrieve is another. Don't forget, I've watched Evan's videos.

Sue, you sound like your heart is in the right place regarding your love for dogs, just realize that training with pressure need not be cruel nor injurious to them.

I just love the euphemism of "pressure" in place of the word punishment. It doesn't change a thing, however.

[IRISHWISTLER]

Sue,
If you need to castigate me for my misuse of an apostrophe, please take note of your own use of two incomplete sentences within your reply. If you cannot decipher your own grammatical errors, I will gladly point them out for you. It must be difficult living under the delusion of self perfection.

I agree that we disagree with regard not only to the competence of Evan Graham as an outstanding trainer of retrieving dogs, but also in our much different definitions of what constitutes that which you so clearly consider abusive. I am baffled by the fact that you don't understand that an e-collar is a form of "pressure", or would you call that punishment? You do know that the dog complies or corrects to escape that "pressure"? There goes those damn euphemisms again (note I left out the apostrophe just for you).

I certainly disagree with your position on this subject, but I support your right to voice your opinion.

Amused,
IRISHWHISTLER

[EvanG]

My remarks in blue:

I've seen his videos. The dogs are not happy, willing workers.

Rather than call you out as the eager liar you are, let's take a look and see if anyone else sees the unhappy, unwilling workers you insist you see.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGi6P33z1p4

Injury and the use of unnecessary force are two different things.

Yes they are, and neither appears in my materials, nor are they advocated in them.

I do not object to the use of an e-collar. By no means. In fact, it's almost a necessity. I DO object to stick fetch and ear/toe pinch training. A Lab should not have to be subjected to that type of "pressure" as force based trainers like to call it. Sorry. A true Lab has the enthusiasm for retrieving, and is willing to please. So much so that they are used in multiple venues, including guide dogs, detection dogs, search and rescue, etc., etc. If the breeding of the so called field Lab in the US has wiped that drive and desire out of them, than there is none to blame but the trainers, who are using outdated methods

Just a little dictionary definition so we're all on the same page - pressure: "force that pushes or urges: something that affects thoughts and behavior in a powerful way, usually in the form of several outside influences working together persuasively" . It requires force of some kind to produce pressure. Conditioning a dog to pressure stabilizes him in working conditions. End of class for today.

i should point out that if you read my books and/or watched my force fetch video materials you will have noted that I make a point of saying that I no longer use stick fetch as a Normal course of development (I haven't stick fetched a dog in over 20 years except to illustrate it for those wanting to know.).

The training programs you point to as modern are the same as those used in the 1940's and 1950's. You really are parading your ignorance as if it were a virtue. If you weren't so nasty about it, it would be easier to just ignore.

A heeling stick is one thing. That's used to guide the rear end into place, since a lot of dogs have no concept of what their hind end is doing. Using a stick to hit the dog to force a retrieve is another. Don't forget, I've watched Evan's videos

I have serious reason to doubt that you have seen my videos because absolutely nothing you claim about them is accurate. A heeling stick is a tool; an implement of pressure. The fact that you believe you can arrogantly dictate to the rest of the retriever training world how to use it has no weight.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u4mByJdtL44

I just love the euphemism of "pressure" in place of the word punishment. It doesn't change a thing, however.

As the dictionary clearly points out, "Pressure" is not used in place of "Punishment". Punishment is an OC term. Again, if you had actually watched my videos as you claim you will have noted a thorough course in Operant Conditioning, and the non-pressure course we take our puppies through prior to formal Basics.

Before you decide to make more baseless claims, please provide actual proof next time. You know; which video, which chapter, etc.

EvanG