Trying a new trainer this weekend!

[windycanyon]

Where is Evan Graham when we need him??? Force fetching is more about conditioning a dog to handle pressure better, rather than to pick up whatever on command.

My 9 mo old has been doing a beautiful Hold since she was 3.5 mos old. She's my demo dog in the Open obed class I am co-teaching currently. I have an AKC judge in the class w/ a herding breed who sat just staring at her on her little platform last week demo'ing w/ me and all he could say was "Wow". One of the things I impressed to that group is before I do any "force" work w/ my dogs (she has not been forced yet), I want a very solid obedience foundation already there, a strong play retrieve drive, and the maturity to deal w/ the higher level of structure. This pup has been retrieving birds and many other items to hand since she was 7 or 8 wks old btw. She delivers to Heel/ Sit now too. So why FF? Because she's like so many of my others in that she's fairly sensitive and she will NEED to be toughened up a bit for future field and obedience work and the stress of handler nerves, etc, that she's going to be exposed to. Can you do JH and SH (and maybe w/ some luck, MH) w/o FF? Yes, but it's a whole lot easier w/ a few more tools in the box.

PS, just saw that I missed several good posts. Sorry for some of the repeated info, but Labradorks, I too had a similar position w/ you years ago. And then I trained a dog to SH who already had her CDX at age 2 and I found out what I was missing by not doing a thorough program w/ the forced/trained retrieve. Other than a few extra things that I do, I pretty much follow Evan Graham's SmartFetch program/ book now for all of my dogs. All 8 in my sig photo are offspring or grand/great offspring from that SH btw.

[Anna Scott]

Labradork, you are right in stating that you would never train a dog with an e-collar. The e-collar is not a teaching tool it is used once the dog knows exactly what is expected. The teaching and obedience comes before the collar conditioning. The collar is then use to reinforce when the dog needs it. When I first was introduced to the use of the collar the trainer used to make us leave the transmitter on a chair several feet away. He would then tell us I want you to think about what you have taught the dog, what you expect from the dog and what you have just done before you resort to the collar. What could you do to help the dog with the expectation, what needs to change. Too many think you put the e-collar on and it will solve all problems.The old days of "boot, shoot and electrocute" are long past and if you have run into a trainer that still operates in this mode then that person is way behind the times and has not advanced with the training methods use by good pros these days. The emphasis is on momentum and the dog needs to be taught so it has the confidence to run hard. When my young dog sees the collar in my hand she is right at the door ready to go and she is a soft one with overdrive.Irishwhistler, my best to you as I have walked a mile in those shoes. Sometimes it felt more like a hundred. Wishing you all the best and once you are back in shape you will get back into these discussions with renewed vigor.

[windycanyon]

Labradork, you are right in stating that you would never train a dog with an e-collar. The e-collar is not a teaching tool it is used once the dog knows exactly what is expected. The teaching and obedience comes before the collar conditioning. The collar is then use to reinforce when the dog needs it. When I first was introduced to the use of the collar the trainer used to make us leave the transmitter on a chair several feet away. He would then tell us I want you to think about what you have taught the dog, what you expect from the dog and what you have just done before you resort to the collar. What could you do to help the dog with the expectation, what needs to change. Too many think you put the e-collar on and it will solve all problems.The old days of "boot, shoot and electrocute" are long past and if you have run into a trainer that still operates in this mode then that person is way behind the times and has not advanced with the training methods use by good pros these days. The emphasis is on momentum and the dog needs to be taught so it has the confidence to run hard. When my young dog sees the collar in my hand she is right at the door ready to go and she is a soft one with overdrive.Irishwhistler, my best to you as I have walked a mile in those shoes. Sometimes it felt more like a hundred. Wishing you all the best and once you are back in shape you will get back into these discussions with renewed vigor.

I actually just handled a call from a guy referred to me from another obed trainer. He wanted help using an ecollar w/ his lab. After talking to him, I convinced him the ecollar wasn't the answer--- he had not trained his dog to generalize yet! His dog sounds great in the back yard, but becomes an idiot once out of it.... I gave him other things to work on, and kept his number. Will be checking back w/ him in a few weeks, but in the meantime, the ecollar is to stay in the box.

[Labradorks]

Thanks for the information, everyone. I'm going to stick with this trainer and see how things go. I'm hopeful.

I just found out that he will be teaching field work basics for Denise Fenzi starting in February at her online academy. I suppose that's what makes him so darn popular with the obedience folks around here.

[EvanG]

In the off chance that those inquiring here really do have open minds, here is the straight story on FF.

What You Should Know About Force Fetch

An Introduction

It won’t go away! On every Internet discussion forum, or pretty much any gathering place for retriever enthusiasts there are trainers with questions and ideas about force fetch. The topic of conversation may be a new perspective, or some technique someone heard about that they want to discuss. Usually, though, it’s a question from someone who just doesn’t understand it, or some part of it.

It has a dubious history of being a technique invented to make non-retrieving dogs, in a sport called Schutzhund, become reliable retrievers. The Germans call this sport "hundesport"; dog sport. For generations, people from Europe and North America have been drawn into this unique idea of participating in an active sport with a dog. Not surprisingly, German Shepherds and other European breeds dominate these events. It is outdoors. It is physical as well as mental. The demands are great, but the sport also offers competition and new friendships. In short, it is what all recreational sports should first be: good exercise, fun and full of rewards. To me, that describes U.S. field trials and hunt test, but don’t try telling that to some Europeans!

Schutzhund started at the beginning of this century as a test for working dogs. Its initial purpose was to determine which dogs could be used for breeding and which had true working ability. In large part, that is what retriever field trials - and to a somewhat lesser extent hunt tests - do today. The growing demand for working dogs made more sophisticated tests and training necessary. These dogs were needed for police training, border patrol, customs, military and herding. As these tests evolved, more people participated just for the sheer enjoyment of seeing if their personal dogs could be trained as effectively as these "professional dogs". Now, over sixty years after the first formal Schutzhund rules were introduced, tens of thousands of people participate in the sport each year.
Schutzhund tests three specific areas of a dog's training and behavior. The first, tracking, requires the dog to track footsteps over mixed terrain, change direction and show absolute accuracy and commitment to finding the track. It must also find dropped articles and indicate their locations to the handler. Often this is done under less than ideal circumstances with difficult cover, bad weather conditions and an aged track. Many find tracking to be the most satisfying experience in training, when only the handler and dog are working together.
Many of these same requirements parallel the needs of American sporting dogs, so the adoption of some techniques used in that sport have reasonably found a home here. Obedience is central to working retrievers, and force fetching augments retrieving by organizing and ensuring it. American trainers of pointing breeds, as well as other sporting breeds, especially retrievers, seized upon those virtues.


“But we are training dogs that have natural drive to retrieve!”

“Why would I want to force my dog to do something he does naturally?” goes the frequently asked question. After all, retrievers are bred to retrieve by instinct, aren’t they? We would all like to think so, but many are bred just to sell, i.e. puppy mills. Many others are bred with objectives other than retrieving, such as those engineered for their appearance alone, i.e. the show ring. But our focus is on working dogs – dogs bred to do the work for which the breed was established, hunting; bringing game to hand. Why would you need to force a dog like that to do the very work he’s been bred for?

You see, it’s the absence of information along with a love for the dog that drives such inquiries. It’s reasonable, and it’s a question that begs to be answered. So, perhaps this insight will help clear up some of the misunderstandings about this very important subject. Certainly, there is nothing new about people seeking an alternative to doing it – frequently because they have just enough information about it to think it’s something that it isn’t. I think it’s that word, force. A new trainer often hears that word and gets an instant mental image that sends them running the other way!

It won’t go away, and for good reason. Let’s start by clearing up what force fetch actually is (or isn’t).


The Myths

More appropriately, there are more misperceptions than myths surrounding the process of force fetching retrievers. I think it starts with the term force. To the novice trainer/dog lover that word summons visions of a dog being thrashed or brutalized in some way or another. There are stories, some true, some contrived, about harsh measures being used to force fetch, like using bottle openers, pliers, etc. Nothing like that will appear as a suggestion in this text because it has nothing to do with how I approach it. Let’s start there and clear the air about that subject.

Ø Force: In retriever training this is a term that describes the use of pressure to achieve a sure and reliable response. Influence that moves something, says the dictionary. The amount of pressure is specified more by the dog than by the trainer. Often very little actual pressure is needed.
Ø Pressure: something that affects thoughts and behavior in a powerful way, usually in the form of several outside influences working together persuasively.

Nowhere in any definition of these terms is abuse or brutality, nor should it be. Like many things, force and pressure are either good or bad depending on how they are applied.

Another misperception is often the assumption that retrievers do all of their retrieving functions by nature, and shouldn’t need to be forced. Frankly, about all that dogs do by nature is to chase after motion, and follow their curiosity about what they smell. We cultivate the rest, both passively and through the use of pressure. Even the most basic puppy-fetch conditioning we all do to get them started is an act we contrive. These dogs retrieve out of self-centered impulses. Bringing birds to us is not a nature-driven act. Thankfully, it can be easily engineered!

Take a well-bred pup and turn him loose in a fenced yard for three years, or so. Leave him strictly to the influences of nature. Then go out one day and see how well he does on the type of retrieving work that would make him useful in game conservation. Compare his work to even an average gun dog with amateur training. How do you think it would come out? No brainer! Whatever natural gifts a dog may have, without some kind of guidance they will tend to be of little value.

It’s not a negative statement that retrievers need training to do the work we need them to do in the field and marsh. That type of work requires a dog to have good natural abilities, but also to be taught how to put those abilities to work because the skills and functions we require are our idea. We invented them. It’s okay. That’s why dogs and trainers are so often referred to as a team. Both contribute to the effort.

The Reality


First of all, force fetch is more than just one thing. It is a definable process with clear goals. But, within the process are several steps or phases. Those steps will be laid out later, but first let’s examine the goals.

1. To establish a standard for acceptable mouth habits.
2. To provide the trainer with a tool to maintain those habits.
3. To provide the trainer with a tool to assure compliance with the command to retrieve.
4. To form the foundation for impetus (momentum).
5. Pressure conditioning.

Mouth habits include such important items as fetching on command, even when your dog may be distracted, or moody, or any number of things that might interfere with compliance. Sure, you may get away for years without having such problems, but being smart and being lucky are not the same thing. Force fetch gives you a tool to handle this when it comes up, plus some insurance that it is less likely to come up due to this training.

Along with compulsion issues we need to mention a proper hold, and delivery on command. If my pheasant is punctured I want it to be from pellets, not teeth. That actually covers some ground in all of the first three categories.

Let’s spend a little time on number four. Lots of people use the terms momentum and style interchangeably. I think it’s important to distinguish between the two because of how they relate to this subject. Force fetch is the foundation of trained momentum, and provides a springboard into subsequent steps of basic development. Style has little to do with this. Here’s why.
Ø Style: A combination of speed, enthusiasm, and just plain hustle that you see in a dog going toward a fall. Style is the product of natural desire and athleticism.
Ø Momentum: In a retriever, the compulsion from the dog’s point of origin; defined in the dictionary as “the force possessed by a body in motion, Measure of movement: a quantity that expresses the motion of a body and its resistance to slowing down. It is equal to the product of the body’s mass and velocity”.

Clearly, this quality is a tremendously valuable asset in the running of blinds and overcoming diversion pressure. It even applies to running long marks, and/or marks through tough cover or terrain. When you need a dog to drive hundreds of yards against the draining influences of terrain, cover, re-entries, and all of the real and perceived factors that are so commonly momentum-robbing, having a dog with a reservoir of momentum is immensely valuable. Force fetch is where that reservoir is established, and can be built upon.

From the foundation of a forced fetch most modern methods progress through stages that continue to build on this principle. Stick fetch, Collar Condition to fetch, Walking fetch, Force to pile, and Water force are all extensions of the work we do in ear pinch or toe hitch, which are popular means to get it all going. When a dog has finished such a course the result is an animal far more driven, with much more resolve to overcome obstacles and distance and distractions.

Lest we forget ~
I am not suggesting that we harm or abuse dogs in any of this force work I’ve spoken of. The late Jim Kappes said, “A properly forced dog shouldn’t look forced”. I completely agree. Momentum and style are distinct terms, each with their own meanings, as pertains to retrievers. I firmly believe that both are traits that should co-exist in a well-trained retriever.

(Pages 5 - 12 of SmartFetch)

EvanG

[windycanyon]

Glad you popped in Evan.

[Anna Scott]

Thank you Evan. Very well put.It sure lays the foundation for future skills.