training time

[Anna Scott]

I didn't want to highjack Tumick's thread on training time so I started this. Please tell me if I am over reacting or wrong in my perspective I just need to vent a little. Last week I arranged for the pro I used to come for a 3 day training session. There were 11 participants and all paid the same amount. The first day Don wanted to assess the dogs so we did a set up that he could evaluate the dogs on. I noticed that some of the participants were coming to the line with 2. 3 or even 4 dogs but didn't say anything because I thought maybe they were looking for some feedback on which dog they should concentrate on. it sure ate up the day though. After dinner that night Don wanted to run a drill with my dog that she had missed while with him. We got her out and a couple of other dogs of people that were staying on the farm. He said we were to get up early the next morning and run the drill again before the others arrived so we did. Unfortunately some arrived early to air dogs and saw us running the drill and nothing would do but for them to run ALL their dogs on this drill. Again eating up valuable time. I hadn't even given Don his breakfast yet!
The rest of the day was again taken up with this group wanting to run multiple dogs on the set up. A this point I noticed that not only were they running multiple dogs but also were very reluctant to go out and gun and throw. It was the people that only had one dog that were doing all the grunt work. My patience were starting to fray. I tried to be diplomatic and tell them that they should chose one of their dogs to teach the set up and then they were welcome to stay in the evening and run the set up with their other dogs. This did not sink in.
The third day I was less diplomatic and flatly stated that if they wanted to run more than one dog then they had to get out and gun and throw between their dogs. That the people with one dog had paid the same as they had and it just wasn't equitable. Even then some were not happy.

I know they are going to want to repeat this activity with Don because they got so much out of it unlike the ones of us that only had one dog to run. So I have decided that if they want to run multiple dogs the next time they will pay the flat fee plus an additional amount for each of their other dogs and it will be high enough to perhaps discourage running more than 2 dogs. You may think that Don should have told them he did but in too nice a way. He is a gentleman and a professional. By the way none of these people that were running multiple dogs were running labs.

Thank you for letting me vent and now you can tell me I am off base.

[zd262]

I don't have any experience with this, but if you think about all other dog related services - doggy daycare, pet sitting, dog walking, regular training - if you have more than one dog you either need to pay double or pay an agreed upon upcharge for the other dogs. Doesn't sound to me like you're off base!

[Maxx&Emma]

I also have no experience training or running drills in this venue but I will say this: if I brought multiple dogs to a nose work or tracking drill and had only paid for Maxx, I would be shut down without question. I am not sure if that is equivalent to what you did but the only thing I know of to compare it to. I think the people were rude and took advantage of your kindness. Why would there not be an entry fee for each dog as well as required participation? JMHO.

[Tanya]

in any other venue I have been to (with spots where dogs get out and do something/get evaluted/compete), you pay PER DOG. The cost for the second/third dog may not be the full price (though, often it IS the same amount - little to no discount as each dog gets the same amount of attention/time). I have never heard of paying one fee and running (actually taking up precious time) as many dogs as they please. Generally they allow a certain number of entries based on time per dog anyway so everyone gets something out of it. If peopel bring up mystery dogs every gets less time.

what happened wasn't fair at all.

[windycanyon]

Totally agree w/ Tanya. Working spots are always paid PER DOG whether at field training, agility, obed or tracking if you intend to run more than one dog on the same exercise.
That was just plain piggish of those folks to not take their fair turn at pop and throw, etc. Now you know who the users are, so be sure to charge them on a "per dog" basis if they aren't likely to help. Anne

[TuMicks]

Ugh. Bad, bad form. As you know, we have had to rely on the kindness of property owners to use their ponds during this drought. Just to use their water... not suck up their time or expertise... we have voluntarily paid per dog per day. We bought a generous cash card for one couple so they could use it for gas on their trip to Canada to run a series of HT's (because we knew they wouldn't take our money.)

There have been disturbances in our training group in the past over etiquette lapses like showing up late and never being around to lug equipment into the field for set ups. Or leaving early and not helping break down. Everyone has to schlepp out to the guns and handle the slimy ducks and deal with the heat and/or mosquitoes.

My goodness, Anna... this was your property!!! They should be not only paying extra $$ for each dog but kissing your feet for the opportunity to use your facilities. Wow. What chutzpah.

[Scoutpout]

You are definitely NOT out of line, my goodness! I'm thinking that i wouldn't accept those folks back that even when outright being TOLD to at least help out they complained!
you were wonderful to set this opportunity up, and to host it. Next time (and i sure hope you have a next time! don't let the ignorant ones ruin it for everyone) have a formal written sign-up, and make it perfectly clear the charge PER DOG, and depending on responses, consider limiting the number of dogs a handler can bring. Also state something along the lines of "participants will be expected to help gun/throw and help with - set-up for those staying on grounds, tear-down for those driving in" that way its super clear to even the clueless types that the fee doesn't provide them with a "catered" experience! A bullhorn is a very handy tool for "crowd control"

I am training with a group, and we all try and help out equally, to the point its sometimes a bit funny - "i;ll go throw now, you run this set up" "no thats ok, I can stay out and throw a bit more" "i insist, you go run now".... till everyone starts laughing and saying SOMEONE get a dog to line! and, we are all coming up with some ways to thank the folks hosting and spending their time and experience with us, that they can use and not feel awkward about taking as a thank-you.

[Anna Scott]

Have finally got out with M over the last 3 days. Weather is much cooler. Friday a friend and I did walking singles for each other and a couple of blinds. He is going to run another friend's 2 dogs in a JH the end of September. One of these dogs is an Australia import. Crackers is conformation structure but he sure has a lot of go. The marks we were doing were not that long. Saturday a new group came to train. One of them is going to be judging a master on the farm the end of September so the day served 2 purposes. She was able to look the place over and get some ideas for a test set up . What a difference with this group. I had to really press them to let me go out and throw, they kept saying we are using your property and I kept pointing out that everyone needed to take a turn throwing. They will be back again even though it is a fair drive for them. Today it was our regular group. We only had 8 dogs. We started with 3 land blinds and then went and threw a triple. By 12:30 we were finished so a few of us went out to lunch. It was a good morning. M did her first triple. I was fairly pleased with her. I had set it up so that she would get a rethrow on the first bird down. However, the little devil threw a wrench into that idea. We have been working an outside, outside middle pattern so when I was lining her up for the second bird she indicated she wanted the outside right which had been the first bird down. I thought I had pulled her back to the centre bird which was the most difficult but when I sent her she lied and switched her line and picked up the outside right. If she had been more experienced I would have called her back and relined her. As this was her first triple I really didn't want to get into a big deal with her. So once she had picked up the outside right I lined her for the centre bird. It was not an easy bird as it was tight to the third gunner and some of the older dogs had tried to dive back into the old fall. M carried a pretty good line but she backsided the gunner and then had to work her way back to the mark. She got there on her own with no help. I accepted her work as it was great effort, steady on the line while all three birds went down and didn't need a rethrow on the third bird. Now if I can just get her comfortable with running off my right side we might fix the backsiding the gunner issue. Yomorrow we are planning to do an ABC drill and she will get some practice running off the right and left. There are no more field trials here in Canada so I will try to get her JH and a WCI before the snow starts to fly.

[Scoutpout]

yes, we've finally had a bit of a cool-down, much nicer for the dogs!
sounds like a much more realistic group you had this weekend. and wow, triples! and M isn't that old either, right? it does sound a complicated, but its fascinating to watch them process each fall! i guess though headed for field trials, and the higher Hunt titles you need to be working hard...i'd be ecstatic to get Scout his WC and JH, never mind WCI. although this sport is really addicting its becoming clear! Scout loves it, so we'll see where it goes.
are you going to the Chessie trial on the long weekend? our group is really hoping to be ready for our WCs then, and i think thats it for WC for the year unless you head to Thunder Bay. but the last couple of times meeting to train, all the dogs in one way or another have been having melt-downs. And then last friday, we were meeting at the water to do water work, and wouldnt you know, pond closed for rehab...its been so hard to find water to use. which is ridiculous in this area - every other country property has a pond, and about 1 in 5 are actually really nice....finally asked a farmer around the corner where i've been buying my sweet corn for a couple of years if they had a pond, he very generously has agreed to let us use it, so we try that out tomorrow evening.
I get nervous when i realize that he's 8.5 already. assuming we can keep up some stuff thru the winter, improve on Hold, and start getting him to take direction other than just on the line, and get a decent early spring next year, if we don't get the WC this fall, he's going to be 9 when we get it in the spring, and hopefully by next fall his JH. he just seems to come to life when he realizes we're about to do field training.
so interesting reading what you accomplished folks are working on.

[Anna Scott]

yes, we are going to the Chessy tests on the long weekend. My sister is going to run M in the WCI (B group) as I am judging the A group. M may give her a run for her money although she has been a good girl on being steady and the honour. However tests are much more nerve racking than trainings. I am looking forward to it as I will be judging with a gentleman from out of province. Remember a bad rehearsal makes a great play!. I am sure that your group will do just fine. We may cross paths at some time. Can`t believe it is only a week away.