We are BACK from Ireland!!!

[Anna Scott]

I think I answered her last paragraph in my post. As to your post above differences are what make the world go round. You are not going to convince some that the show ring labs as seen at Westminster are the ideal or that a Lean Mac with 4 National titles is ideal either. Each of us has the dog we prefer and choose to train it to a certain level, what ever that may be. Live and let live is my motto. If your happy I'm happy.

[barry581]

I'm almost sorry this thread has reduced itself to another "we vs. they" post.

IMHO Labradors are probably the most versatile dogs on the planet. There really isn't anything at which the do not excel. I pretty sure everyone on this board knows my story with Labs. 30 plus years, got my first Lab in the UK in 1984. Lot's of water under the bridge. I've met and had conversations with many influential people in the breed in the UK, including Mary Roslin Williams, Gwen Broadly, Marjorie Satterthwaite, Carole Coode, Ann Taylor and many others. While I doubt they remember a young American showing back in the mid to late 80's I remember those times very well. I can only say I was humbled by the kindness I was shown, and how much help and encouragement I received during that period.

Even back then there was much debate over the "field" vs. "show' Labs. Show people cared about what the dogs looked like, and field people cared about what the dogs could do. So each bred for what qualities they wanted from the dogs. That being said, there were many "show" people who worked their dogs on a regular basis, picking up at local pheasant shoots. These were the dogs that could win at a show, and do the job for which they were bred, that is, bring dead and wounded game to hand.

Somewhere along the line, people decided to see who's dog was best at their jobs, and field trials came about. Then hunt tests. So the tests had to get tougher and tougher to differentiate as to who's dog was best. The pressure on the dogs got higher and higher. Now we have these high strung, hard charging, take no prisoners type dogs that are needed to compete at the highest levels. Those who will take a line on a 400 yard blind retrieve, over ridiculous terrain, swimming 100 yards though 33 degree water.

I am very, very new to the whole competition retriever thing. I've been taking Bruce to training once a week since July. Quite frankly I'm amazed at how well he has done, with just the minimal training I have given him. He truly has the innate ability a retriever needs to do basic field work. Despite being from pure conformation lines. I have no expectations or goals as to how far he can go. He'll go as far as I can take him, with help from people I can trust.

In the short time I've been training with this group I've seen good and bad. I've seen a dog so hyper he literally SCREAMS when marking retrieves, and will continue to scream until he is well on his way to picking up the mark. He is much better on blinds, no screaming, and he takes direction from his handler very well. I've watched one guy yelling multiple commands at his dog, while nailing the dog with an e-collar to the point to dog is crying every time the handler hits the button. It's pitiful to watch, and I feel very sorry for the dog, as he's basically being abused by a moron with a button. One of the people we train with is a Hunt Test Judge. He was talking about a guy he was hunting with a couple years ago. The guy shot a duck, which landed in a river. Current was taking the dead duck away from their blind. Guy send his dog, dog gets to the bird, but is struggling against the current coming back, temperature is below freezing. The dog is trying to exit the water and come up the bank, the owner won't let him. The Hunt Test Judge asks the guy if he's trying to kill his dog. Guy say no, he's supposed to come straight back. Hunt Test Judge tells him, you better get him out of the water or you're going to kill him. Guy finally relents. Dog makes it back. So my smart ass self asks Mr Hunt Test Judge, if it's ok in real life, why isn't it ok at a hunt test???? He had no real answer, other than that's the way it is.

It saddens me to see the divergence, and see people breeding these dogs to be what they want them to be, rather than what they were supposed to be.

[Maxx&Emma]

It saddens me to see the divergence, and see people breeding these dogs to be what they want them to be, rather than what they were supposed to be.

I really liked all of your post but this sentence sums everything up perfectly.

[Anna Scott]

I don't know about Hunt test judges in the AKC but as a CKC judge I close the book on the line back. I look for delivery to hand and the condition of the bird when it is delivered. Even the latter gets leeway because a winger can damage a bird far more than a dog. An early exit does not affect a score. I am careful with lowering marks for bank running in a junior test because more often than not the water given to the juniors is crappy and cheaty. I don't know why this is because these dogs should be given the best water so that the tests don't set them up for failure. A master dog should know better than to bank run a junior does not.
You are correct in saying that it has been people that have caused the divergence in the breed with their artificial expectations. I have a friend that has been breeding labs since the early 60's and tries her very best to keep at least one line that is true to the original breed, but as a breeder she finds there are always the "flavours of the month" that JQ Public get caught up in. Hence all of these nonexistent colour labels such a champagne, white, charcoal, silver and fox red have come along. There are only three colours Yellow, Black and Chocolate with variations in colour density (with the exception of silver which is highly questionable as a lab at all).

[TuMicks]

Visiting mom (91 years old) and can only get on the computer when she's not on it! It's tough to share sometimes. But we manage.

I was effusive about Sir Cecil's dog. It looked like today's field lab. It's impossible to know what the dog's temperament was. Could have been a real plodder. Or maybe it was intense, birdie, high-strung and fast requiring a lot of training. I don't know.

The photo was taken long before North Americans had even thought of trialing retrievers. Therefore, that archetypical field-lab body-type was not the result of breeding pressures created by American/Canadian field championships. That was the point of discussing the portrait in King House, County Roscommon.

Moving along... no longer talking about Sir Cecil's dog.

I visited with a pro. Watched his dogs. They looked pretty much like any field dog over here. They behaved like any field dog here (with the notable exception of vocalizing.) They were fast, birdy, intense and hard-charging. I asked the pro if hunting of the type done in the UK/Ireland required a fast, intense, birdy, hard-charging dog. He said yes. Because there would be multiple handlers/gunners progressing through a field in a line, and when the game went up, many birds could be dropped within a matter of seconds. All the dogs along the line would be called upon to race out, pick up the correct bird and bring it to hand ASAP.

Ram Jet Rocket Dog would not please the pro I visited. That's cool. We talked a great deal about her and he gave me a lot of insight. Which is why I was so pleased he shared so much of his time with me. It was a wonderful experience. I didn't get enough of a chance to ask him specifics about how they steady their dogs and what they do in place of "force fetch". (No please, no need to tell me here unless you are a pro over there. I will continue to be in touch with him and God willing will go back and learn more.)

BTW: Does anyone know how to follow Irish Field Trials, perhaps get their schedules and if available videos. (I have been on Youtube and what's up there is sort of sporatic.)