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Thread: Force To Pile

  1. #21
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    You know... I am not seeing what you're seeing in that tape. Because each time he releases that dog on BACK, dog's tail is up, and the ears are forward, he's running out and in briskly. But several times, Hillmann gives the dog more happy bumpers, to allay boredom or release pressure. Remember, the dog has to want to GO. So he has to be up and eager.

    I see the ears back on this dog, but only when he's stopped at heel position or front, either way. These dogs don't like to stop, they want to GO. I don't think that's fear or intimidation at all. It's actually the opposite. The dog is, frankly, less happy to be sitting, and more happy to be moving. So the reward for a field dog is GO and if he needs more GO, Hillmann instantly is giving the dog happy bumpers along with happy talk. Watch the dog run. He isn't crawling. His tail isn't down. I think the dog's only confusion, actually is... "hey! Why did you stop?" "Are you going to send me again?"

    I think you're misreading the dog.

    Could the difficulty be that in your sport, with your types of dog... you are inducing the right behavior... getting him to take a jump, or the go-out with positive stuff (treats?). Field dogs don't need inducement. The aim in field work is to shape the dog's passion to GO Dogwithout using too much NO.

    I think that tape is a good illustration of how it's done.
    I pointed out the times in which the dog's body language screams fear -- cowering, tail tucked, etc. It is not easy to overlook. It doesn't matter what happens when the dog is released, the point is, that the dog, at least three times in this short video, is crouching from fear. Dogs can go from fear to excitement when something that is a natural stimulant or motivator is introduced. Retrieving, herding, or whatever the dog desires either naturally or through conditioning. This is not the body language of a dog that is simply wanting to be released. The conflict the dog is feeling may induce some stress, sure, but it should not induce fear. A dog that would rather be doing something else because of drive or desire or whatever, does not react the same way as if it were kicked (not suggesting the dog in the video was kicked). This is all common dog behavior knowledge, not field versus obedience or positive versus negative. I do see dogs exhibiting this behavior (pets, too) and owners thinking it is obedience -- and it is, but obedience by way of intimidation.

    Field work is induced by a natural and strong motivator. In obedience you find motivators -- food, toys, praise -- and sometimes create them through conditioning if you have to. Not every obedience behavior is "artificially" induced. It depends on the dog. Allowing the dog to retrieve or jump is often all the reward he needs for that exercise, but you still have to shape the behavior. That's not to say that is true for the next dog. Perhaps that dog loves to heel and that is a motivator but jumping and retrieving require food. But, then, you have similar issues that you have in the field, too. Perhaps not as intense, but similar. The glove exercise, for example. Many retrievers want to run out and get all three gloves. Or they get one glove, drop it half-way in, then run out and get the next one. Same with articles. I know that with my Lab, if I left a pile of articles out he'd just go out and pick them up and bring them to me one by one. They are supposed to "shop" the pile for the scented article and bring that one back. I don't use food in field training because it's not required. It doesn't hurt to reinforce any behavior to get something solid even under stressful conditions, whether that is praise, play or food. When Linus has a beautiful retrieve in the field or when he does a great job on a difficult retrieve, I will throw the bird around for him or let him carry it or lay down with it after he's brought it to hand. And, sometimes I won't make him hand it over, but will let him hold it while I get my hands all over him and praise him as he wiggles around in circles holding his prized bird. Essentially, I have taught him to love putting the bird in my hand almost as much as getting the bird in the first place.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
    Is Linus doing blinds? Today was a good example of where force to the pile and pile work shows its value. As I said before I think M is coming into season and she has been really clingy and just not her usual. She didn't want to go on a cold blind today so I sat her on the line took about 5 steps forward , called her to my side and sent her. No pressure no, nick, no punishment just her training kicking in from pile work. When I hear back I need to go. I put her up and reran the blind again later on and this time she needed only one whistle. The blind was about 250 yds through some real suction.

    I have another question Labradork and I am not trying to be smart. I just wonder what your experience is with field trial trainers that you have such a negative attitude towards them. And by field trial trainers I mean an excellent pro that really knows their stuff not some weekend warrior or Joe Blow who has hung out his shingle because they think they have successfully trained one dog. I really would like to know so I can put your responses into perspective. You are right that not all dogs are going to field trial, or hunt test or even hunt for that matter. I know a woman who has put 26 WCX ribbons on her dog simple because she likes the atmosphere of the tests.
    I love making progress with my dogs and each one has gone that much farther because I have learned over the years from an excellent pro that grew up in the sport and is continuously modifying his teaching programme so that it fits the dog that is at his side. No two dogs handle a training situation in the same way and it is up to the handler to read the dog. Pile work and force to the pile is not done the same way for every dog.
    Yes, we started blinds. Much of my field work with him is dependent on what I am working on in obedience. Obedience is my focus. I have done pile work with my dog, but stopped because I am working on articles and I WANT him to shop, not race out grab something and race back. I did not really have to train him for pile work, whether balls, bumpers or birds. The obedience training was enough that I could just go out there and do it and it was something we could do in the field by ourselves. Now, I do directed retrieves with bumpers and ducks, much like the glove work, instead. It's good practice for both obedience and field.

    My experience with field trainers varies. I have seen people kick and hit their dogs, dogs belly crawling in heel position and people threaten their dogs with fists to the face. When I have said something, I get the "that guy is a pro and is extremely successful!" which I suppose makes that type of behavior OK? The dogs that have failed tests that have been FF'ed and trained by pros and the novice owners were dumbfounded because they were lead to believe that since the dog was FF'ed or CC'ed it should be fail-safe. I believe that is a dangerous proposition and an irresponsible statement that I have seen lead to anger toward the dog or further force to get the dog to do what they wanted. I saw a woman with a FF'ed dog run up to her dog and pinch her ear because she dropped a bird and the dog bit her hand out of fear as she crouched and urinated. More than anything, the vast majority of dogs I see, even in the videos of famous trainers, show fear behaviors. What I read, also written by famous trainers, is old school alpha/dominance stuff, which I don't agree with at all, and it bothers me when confusion or mistakes are labled as disobedience or disrespect when it's typically a handling error, a training error or a simple mistake, and the dog is punished.

    I was lucky to find a very kind trainer who rehabs a lot of messed up dogs. Dogs with excellent pedigrees that were purchased for thousands of dollars then sent to well-known pros who used force techniques and now the dog needs serious rehab. One was forced to water in the winter with the e-collar and is now afraid of water. This pro teaches a lot of positive trainers and is great at problem solving instead of, when a problem crops up, jumping on the force band-wagon. He might jump there faster than, say, me, but certainly not as fast as many. He also highly values obedience in the field and makes strong suggestions to people that they follow a program, even suggesting Denise Fenzi's online obedience classes (though they are not affiliated and she is R+) to people who do not have access to a good trainer.

    There is nothing wrong with trialing regardless of the reason. My comment regarding trialing was that no dog should be pushed beyond his limits (mental or physical) or trained in a way that is unkind for the sake of ribbons and titles.
    Last edited by Labradorks; 12-06-2015 at 06:41 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Ho Hum, I can smell the KOOL AID. LOL?

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    Ho Hum, I can smell the KOOL AID. LOL?

    Irishwhistler
    That statement can go both ways.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    That statement can go both ways.
    That's right. I'll have the Bushmills. :-)

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  6. #26
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    Thank you Labradork you have just explained everything. Good luck with your field work.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Anna Scott For This Useful Post:

    windycanyon (12-07-2015)

  8. #27
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    Geeze........ haven't seen this since last week....

    ANYWHO, been working on it and he is doing GREAT. Had some guys at the club give me a little assistance and Boomer seems to grasp the understanding.

    Also worked Boomer on his first land doubles yesterday and he nailed em without hesitation. He's coming along real well and I'm excited!

    Labradorks - I understand you putting in $0.02 and I appreciate the first comment but after that you're not providing any useful information to me at all. This was a question intended for the field training labs, if you don't like it just keep scrolling
    -11910459_532657623553190_1879358035_n-jpg

    I don't post much but i've seen a pattern with you and the HT and FT dog training threads... You troll thru knowing you're gonna see something you won't like and give your rainbows and cotton candy opinion anytime "e-collar" or "force" comes up in dog training. Boomer absolutely loves doing drill work, he jumps and runs in circles when I grab my bumper bag. Sometimes when I'm just moving it in the house I gotta do it discretely or else he'll get all excited for nothing.


    And Boomer never cowers, I NEVER hit him, I NEVER kick him and would never use the e-collar to any level that would make him yelp or cry. And after every drill he gets a fun bumper to ensure we're ending on a happy note.

    Thank you to everyone that posted useful information on the topic at hand.
    Last edited by teej89; 12-07-2015 at 08:22 AM.

  9. #28
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teej89 View Post
    Geeze........ haven't seen this since last week....

    ANYWHO, been working on it and he is doing GREAT. Had some guys at the club give me a little assistance and Boomer seems to grasp the understanding.

    Also worked Boomer on his first land doubles yesterday and he nailed em without hesitation. He's coming along real well and I'm excited!

    Labradorks - I understand you putting in $0.02 and I appreciate the first comment but after that you're not providing any useful information to me at all. This was a question intended for the field training labs, if you don't like it just keep scrolling

    -11910459_532657623553190_1879358035_n-jpg

    I don't post much but i've seen a pattern with you and the HT and FT dog training threads... You troll thru knowing you're gonna see something you won't like and give your rainbows and cotton candy opinion anytime "e-collar" or "force" comes up in dog training. Boomer absolutely loves doing drill work, he jumps and runs in circles when I grab my bumper bag. Sometimes when I'm just moving it in the house I gotta do it discretely or else he'll get all excited for nothing.


    And Boomer never cowers, I NEVER hit him, I NEVER kick him and would never use the e-collar to any level that would make him yelp or cry. And after every drill he gets a fun bumper to ensure we're ending on a happy note.

    Thank you to everyone that posted useful information on the topic at hand.
    TeeJay and Boomer,
    I see ye both have a keen nose too Mate and scented the same stench o' Kool Aid I detected. As stated, I'll take the Bushmills kindly. :-)

    Cheers Mates,
    Irishwhistler & TRAD
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    Joanie Madden, Mary Bergin, Adrea Coor, and Nuala Kennedy, each an Irish whistle goddess in her own right.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to IRISHWISTLER For This Useful Post:

    teej89 (12-07-2015)

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    TeeJay and Boomer,
    I see ye both have a keen nose too Mate and scented the same stench o' Kool Aid I detected. As stated, I'll take the Bushmills kindly. :-)

    Cheers Mates,
    Irishwhistler & TRAD
    I prefer Tullymoore DEW. It may not be traditional, but it's certainly easier to drink.

  12. #30
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teej89 View Post
    Geeze........ haven't seen this since last week....

    ANYWHO, been working on it and he is doing GREAT. Had some guys at the club give me a little assistance and Boomer seems to grasp the understanding.

    Also worked Boomer on his first land doubles yesterday and he nailed em without hesitation. He's coming along real well and I'm excited!

    Labradorks - I understand you putting in $0.02 and I appreciate the first comment but after that you're not providing any useful information to me at all. This was a question intended for the field training labs, if you don't like it just keep scrolling
    -11910459_532657623553190_1879358035_n-jpg

    I don't post much but i've seen a pattern with you and the HT and FT dog training threads... You troll thru knowing you're gonna see something you won't like and give your rainbows and cotton candy opinion anytime "e-collar" or "force" comes up in dog training. Boomer absolutely loves doing drill work, he jumps and runs in circles when I grab my bumper bag. Sometimes when I'm just moving it in the house I gotta do it discretely or else he'll get all excited for nothing.


    And Boomer never cowers, I NEVER hit him, I NEVER kick him and would never use the e-collar to any level that would make him yelp or cry. And after every drill he gets a fun bumper to ensure we're ending on a happy note.

    Thank you to everyone that posted useful information on the topic at hand.
    Since I do field work, it's not trolling, and, I'm pretty passionate about training dogs kind and humane way without the use of force. Sorry, I'm not sorry.

 



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