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    Thread: Force To Pile

    1. #1
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      Force To Pile

      What is this teaching the dog? I just started yesterday and I did it with no pressure yesterday but today I'm going to induce pressure every third or fourth send. I'm also skipping doing it with the heeling stick, my trainer said that was useless.

      Yesterday he did it fine. We're done with three handed casting and so yesterday it was just like he was saying "okay they're just longer back lefts and back rights?" he nailed em everytime, didn't hesitate at all.

      Also I sent him from the front.

    2. #2
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      The purpose of this is to instill compulsion to go. There will be times that cover, wind, water or whatever factor will make the dog no-go. Force to pill instills compulsion to go no matter what.

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    4. #3
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      My understanding is that it's supposed to help the dog understand that he needs to retrieve things (bumpers, birds, etc.) that are not thrown with the same enthusiasm as something that is thrown or falls. Like for blind retrieves. It's also supposed to teach the dog to take instructions from you. I'm guessing it's also training for doubles - one thing at a time. Trainers will try to bore the dog so they can force it back to the pile. So, basically, set the dog up for failure so you can punish him. I think it's BS.

      Teach the dog to love to bring things to you, make a game of it, make sure you start easy and work up to more difficult conditions (start in your living room, go the yard, end up in a field, for example), teach your dog to love to work with you, and you should not have to force him to pile. I do this in the house with items like balls or toys. Outside we use bumpers or ducks. We do this with gloves (for obedience) to teach him to bring things back one at a time (instead of grabbing ALL the gloves). My dog CAN'T WAIT to go and get the thing for me! And he CAN'T WAIT to give me the thing he got! If the dog is shopping, you can go with him to the "pile" and show him what you want. I do this with articles now as Linus is a bit excited with the articles at the moment.

      Anyway, whichever way you decide to go (not everyone does pile work) I'd suggest that you obtain a better understanding from your trainer before continuing this as it sounds like you are not completely clear on the goal, which is fine, you just want to understand what you are doing and why before you teach a dog something new.
      Last edited by Labradorks; 12-03-2015 at 06:55 PM.

    5. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by ZEKESMAN View Post
      The purpose of this is to instill compulsion to go. There will be times that cover, wind, water or whatever factor will make the dog no-go. Force to pill instills compulsion to go no matter what.

      Alright that makes sense, my buddy called me and explained it in the same manner you did essentially. I rewatched the drill and Lardy was saying what you're saying that it's instilling the will to go and push thru to the pile.

      Thanks!

    6. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
      My understanding is that it's supposed to help the dog understand that he needs to retrieve things (bumpers, birds, etc.) that are not thrown with the same enthusiasm as something that is thrown or falls. Like for blind retrieves.
      Thanks!

    7. #6
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      Labradork it has nothing to do with setting the dog up for failure or punishment for the sake of punishment.

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    9. #7
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      Sometimes it helps to read multiple field trainers' books (or videos if that's more to your style) on these things. Some explain the training process better than others. I find written material is better for ME because my comprehension / attention is far better w/ that. Also forums like RTF (retriever training forum), and publications like Retriever Journal often have great articles. Personally of all the "canned programs", I've found Evan Graham's is presented the best for me, but in part, that's because I've found it helps me cross train competition obedience concepts at the same time as I am going thru the force program.
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    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
      Labradork it has nothing to do with setting the dog up for failure or punishment for the sake of punishment.
      Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. If the hope is that the dog gets bored so you can then have the opportunity to correct him, he's being set up for failure. I get it. It's the point of force training. I just don't agree with it. To each his own. But the bigger issue (to the OP) is that I would not force train if I didn't know what or why I was doing what I was doing.

    11. #9
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      Please watch this video. Beginning Force Back to Pile | BillHillmann.net

      You'll see a dog actually having fun doing FTP. The e-collar is in use. What isn't explained in the video (because it was discussed earlier in other lessons) is that Hillmann uses a barely there stimulation. He maybe goes to a 2-high, usually 2-medium or even low. A 2-high is sensed as a vibration. (I know... I used it on myself, using the same tritronix collar you see in the video. A 1, in contrast, can be barely perceived.)

      The purpose of FTP is simply that the dog ALWAYS goes when sent. Retrieving isn't a discussion with the dog. It's retrieving. It is work. It can be fun work... retrieving is what these dogs have bred into every gene in their body. With very few exceptions it's what they want to do more than anything in the world (except eating... but they're labs, so...) But at the end of the day, early transition work is to increase their drive, their impulse to retrieve.

      In this video, you do NOT see a bored dog doing a boring drill. You do NOT see a dog getting punished for not going when told. It's almost wrong to call it FORCE to pile. More properly it's WANT TO GO to pile. You see a dog having a good time.

    12. #10
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      One more thing. If in field work, you begin to have problems, (popping, whistle refusals, loopy sits, cast refusals) you're going to go back to transition work such as FTP, Single T, etc. to simplify things and iron out wrinkles. And since FTP is the basis for many of these drills, you and the dog need to feel really comfortable with it.

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