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Thread: Pressure

  1. #21
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    and to each their own on how they do it, i just think you can achieve the goal in many different ways.

    and trust me flyball dogs be crazy. i mean CRAZY.

    again, i'm not saying I NEVER give corrections. but always a question of extend and sounds like quite the correction in the video based on the description of the dog's reaction to it. However, i've also heard that a true correction that works needs to be strong enough (and if the dog does it again then it wasn't really much of a correction). so who am I to say.
    Last edited by Tanya; 12-14-2015 at 03:11 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    I didn't watch it. Descriptions were quite enough for me to know I did not need to see it first-hand. I don't see this as a type of pressure, it's a type of correction. I correlate pressure to your dog's ability to handle stress and work through complex problems. Stress or pressure can be presented in a multitude of ways, such as performing in a new environment, learning something new or dealing with distractions, both natural and artificial -- all of which can be worked through using R+ methods.

    Given the description of what happened in the video, perhaps the trainer needed to take it back a few steps and work on leave it and stay under distracting circumstances, working his way up to this type of scenario. The dog was obviously not ready to perform this exercise in this place under these circumstances and by putting the dog in this situation prematurely, he is most likely taking several steps back in training, not to mention trust. Why not solidly train the dog first instead of setting him up to fail then correcting him?

    Just because one video shows a non-e-collar user doing this doesn't mean that this is the "no e-collar way". This type of treatment of dogs in any sport for a Q, for a ribbon, for bragging rights, is wrong and unnecessary. Yes, to each their own when it comes to training. But there is a line that needs to be drawn.

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  4. #23
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
    Chloe already has some issues with that that we are working around - just the fact I have to be silent during the exercises makes her worry that she has made a mistake.
    Not sure if you'd be interested or not, but Fenzi has some great blog posts on this subject. Here is one. If you put the word "silence" in the search bar, there are a few more. She has some good ideas, even if you're not that into her as a trainer.

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  6. #24
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    OK, I watched it.

    I was expecting to see someone dragging the spaniel away from a fight with a Labrador. But, the Lab dropped the bird and there was no fight, and no reason to panic. Had there been a fight, I'm sure we can all say that we would have reacted to ensure that no one was hurt, but you don't know what that looks like until you are in the situation.

    In this case, no harm was done. It was not an emergency situation. It could have been if the dogs decided to fight, but it wasn't. I would have told the dog to drop the bird and put a leash on him then put him away to prevent it from happening again. The information I would have taken away is that he was not ready for those circumstances and I would have taken a few steps back in my training, not putting him back in that situation until he was solid. When you put a dog into a situation he is not prepared for, the dog should not be punished.

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  8. #25
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Denial does work really well with super birdy field dogs (if RD is any indication.)

    I think your description of pressure vrs. correction is correct. Interestingly, I think it (the word "pressure") is about the only one I understood... So I watched it again and I still couldn't make out the word. Sounded like "you have to know your dog to know what kind of tickin' off is right to use". Oh well, yes. I think conflating pressure and punishment is not correct. They may overlap, but they are not the same.

    And it was straight up correction... the trainer didn't wait around, or try sweet reason with the dog. Nor did he nag the dog (to make Tanya's point). I have to assume that he was somewhat surprised by the bird snatching (your a pro and the cameras are running and all of a sudden your dog does something utterly bone-headed) which would lead me to believe he thought he'd worked through this and taught the dog better.

    And, in all honesty... this happens All. The. Time. It doesn't matter what kind of dog you have or what you do with him. You really honest-to-gosh think the dog gets it and then you find out he doesn't. So you back up and start again. That's life in the dog lane.

  9. #26
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    And it was straight up correction... the trainer didn't wait around, or try sweet reason with the dog. Nor did he nag the dog (to make Tanya's point). I have to assume that he was somewhat surprised by the bird snatching (your a pro and the cameras are running and all of a sudden your dog does something utterly bone-headed) which would lead me to believe he thought he'd worked through this and taught the dog better.

    And, in all honesty... this happens All. The. Time. It doesn't matter what kind of dog you have or what you do with him. You really honest-to-gosh think the dog gets it and then you find out he doesn't. So you back up and start again. That's life in the dog lane.
    Clearly, the dog has been corrected this way in the past, that much you can see by his body language. How is that working out for him?

    In all honesty, I've never thought my dog had it and then found out he didn't. He either does or he doesn't. I am human, so I have made mistakes in asking too much of my dog, but once what's done is done, it was clear that the dog never had it. Having it at home is not the same as having it elsewhere. For perspective, my dog has the stand for exam with the women in my class, but does he have the stand for exam with a woman wearing a big floppy hat? I think that when something gets messed up, a handler can point to why that happened, and it's never the dog's fault. Sometimes it's just a matter of maturity or experience on the dog's part, in which case he should not have been put in that position in the first place. Lesson (hopefully) learned!

    Also, the Purely Positive thing... People typically use the term to indicate that they do not use force or physical corrections or intimidation tactics to train their dogs -- compulsion. I used to use this term myself. Purely Positive in the literal sense does not exist. Here is a pretty good article on the subject. It's old, but still relatively valid.

  10. #27
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    i watched it. What the trainer SAYS isn't too far off what I think, level depends on the dog blah blah blah. but I gotta say watching the first bit seemed like a total over reaction. he seems to say the dog is "strong willed" and needed what he called a moderate pressure (would HATE to see what they call a heavy correction). But the dog clearly falls into submissive/fearful position before he even grabs it so to me that's overkill. the yelping well some dogs yelp easily but you shouldn't be putting enough "pressure" on a dog to get that level of reaction in training. Sure the dog bounced back. sure he says he doesn't want to apply too much and have the dog "worried" about when you'll do it again and blah blah blah. but from what they show it's not something I personally support.

    We do this stuff with our dogs for fun. yes they need manners and not ignore us but to me this was an honest mistake on the dog's part. didn't warrant that level of "pressure".

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  12. #28
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    What you saw in the video was direct pressure (or as Labradorks accurately notes... a direct correction.) That is NOT what happens in systematic* e-collar training commonly used in the US and Canada. And I don't think this is well understood by the general public.

    (What follows is not a polemic for the wonderfulness of e-collars. On the contrary, these tools are best used with indirect pressure... not direct correction... and for that reason, anyone who doesn't appreciate the distinction between the two, should NOT own or use an e-collar.)

    Labradorks noted correctly that perhaps this dog did NOT know he shouldn't snag the bird from the lab. Things in the field are fluid and maybe the dog didn't understand the context or was confused. So we shouldn't hammer the dog for the jumping up to grab the bird. Agreed. But, that's all irrelevant in a systematic e-collar program, because the dog wouldn't be corrected for the break (leaving the handler's side to grab a bird.) His abandonment of SIT would be negatively reinforced. And the dog does know to SIT.

    Arguments to the contrary are facile. We go to extremes to teach the SIT command in the training yard, in the house, on the street, in the field, around barn cats and house cats, live birds and dead birds, guns and duck calls, in rain, droughts, cold and sweaty heat, AND (importantly) on lead at the line in just this sort of situation. We go to extremes to be as sure as we can possibly be that the dog knows these basic commands, of which SIT is the most basic. Because we are reinforcing what the dog already knows, we can use smaller, much more modest, much more precisely timed, instantaneous aliquots of negative reinforcement.

    In the video, you saw the dog cringe and vocalize. That doesn't happen in a well applied systematic training program**.

    * By "systematic" I mean a predictable training sequence that TEACHES, REINFORCES and PRACTICES each skill. I don't mean e-collar use by Bubba-the-hunter or his better looking cousin the pro dog trainer.

    ** My 3 dogs get very sad when I pick up the car keys and don't take them on a ride with me. Their ears are down, they slink to their beds. They don't cringe and vocalize. They just aren't happy, perky, enthusiastic. When my dogs are nicked for breaking a SIT they don't cringe or vocalize. Their ears may be down momentarily. The nick may have made them sad for a millisecond. Or even for several seconds. Maybe for a whole minute. They don't get to decide whether they SIT or not. They don't get to decide when they ride shotgun to the store. My dogs are frequently disappointed, but never abused. Blaze Loves His Kennel (ORIGINAL) Husky Says No to Kennel - Funny - YouTube
    Last edited by TuMicks; 12-15-2015 at 12:53 AM.

  13. #29
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    What you saw in the video was direct pressure (or as Labradorks accurately notes... a direct correction.) That is NOT what happens in systematic* e-collar training commonly used in the US and Canada. And I don't think this is well understood by the general public.

    (What follows is not a polemic for the wonderfulness of e-collars. On the contrary, these tools are best used with indirect pressure... not direct correction... and for that reason, anyone who doesn't appreciate the distinction between the two, should NOT own or use an e-collar.)

    Labradorks noted correctly that perhaps this dog did NOT know he shouldn't snag the bird from the lab. Things in the field are fluid and maybe the dog didn't understand the context or was confused. So we shouldn't hammer the dog for the jumping up to grab the bird. Agreed. But, that's all irrelevant in a systematic e-collar program, because the dog wouldn't be corrected for the break (leaving the handler's side to grab a bird.) His abandonment of SIT would be negatively reinforced. And the dog does know to SIT.

    Arguments to the contrary are facile. We go to extremes to teach the SIT command in the training yard, in the house, on the street, in the field, around barn cats and house cats, live birds and dead birds, guns and duck calls, in rain, droughts, cold and sweaty heat, AND (importantly) on lead at the line in just this sort of situation. We go to extremes to be as sure as we can possibly be that the dog knows these basic commands, of which SIT is the most basic. Because we are reinforcing what the dog already knows, we can use smaller, much more modest, much more precisely timed, instantaneous aliquots of negative reinforcement.

    In the video, you saw the dog cringe and vocalize. That doesn't happen in a well applied systematic training program**.

    * By "systematic" I mean a predictable training sequence that TEACHES, REINFORCES and PRACTICES each skill. I don't mean e-collar use by Bubba-the-hunter or his better looking cousin the pro dog trainer.

    ** My 3 dogs get very sad when I pick up the car keys and don't take them on a ride with me. Their ears are down, they slink to their beds. They don't cringe and vocalize. They just aren't happy, perky, enthusiastic. When my dogs are nicked for breaking a SIT they don't cringe or vocalize. Their ears may be down momentarily. The nick may have made them sad for a millisecond. Or even for several seconds. Maybe for a whole minute. They don't get to decide whether they SIT or not. They don't get to decide when they ride shotgun to the store. My dogs are frequently disappointed, but never abused. Blaze Loves His Kennel (ORIGINAL) Husky Says No to Kennel - Funny - YouTube
    I don't even understand your point.

  14. #30
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    interesting article about "the dog knowing but not wanting to perform" and negative feedback (negative meaning displaying displeasure not nexessarily correcting harshly)
    When is it Acceptable to Break the Basic Rules of Dog Training?

 



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