Pressure

[Labz]

I have tried to sit on my hands for this one. I know George Hickox's work and can see where it would be profitable to work clicker training into upland work for his clients. Working upland flushing dogs is close up because you need to be within shot gun range when that bird goes up, pointers will hold the bird for you so you don't need to be right on top of them. A clicker could be used successfully but a whistle is also useful.
There are two schools of thought here and we each need to evaluate our own. Labradork has made it clear that she likes the dog to use his natural abilities and is satisfied with the level at which her dog is working. As a judge I see many people that follow this path. I will never forget judging a hunt test in which the line to the bird was over a small floating log. One of the handlers made the statement "Isn't my dog intelligent, he swam around the log". Obviously this person was happy with his dog's performance but missed the whole object of the test and perserverence and trainability. In a field trial that dog would have been dropped from competition for avoiding the test. As you advance in HTs and FTs it is not just run out and get the bird. Dogs must be able to handle cheating situations, not avoid obstacle and cover, run a straight line to the area of the fall, take whistles and handles, not stop to air in the field on the way out or on the way in ( the first is a hanging offense), as well as avoid all the other faults listed in the rule book. It is somewhat like comparing apples, oranges and bananas. WC's, like bananas are easy to peel and most people can do them with minimum training. HT's, like oranges are a little more difficult to peel but with effort can be accomplished. Although it boggles my mind how many people have pros run their dogs in hunt tests in the US. FT's, like apples are much harder to peel and you need the right tools to accomplish the job. Not every apple comes out looking perfect so the jobs are rated on a first to fourth scale with some honourable mentions thrown in. This adds another dimension to the field trial as you now have a very human element. The hunt test is clear in that you need to meet a certain standard that is laid out for all to see. With field trials much of the judging is left up to the interpretation of the judges and believe me there can be differing opinions. The Canadian field trial rule book puts no parameters on what a judge may set up in a test. In conversations with very experienced judges I have heard such statements as " I can put a triple in a junior with a retired gun because the rule book just says multiple marks, and does not put restrictions on what I set up." So when you step to the line at a FT you need to be prepared to see anything.
So really such discussions do not change anyone's mind as we all have goals and standards we wish to achieve. How we achieve them is up to us and no amount of internet haranguing is going to change our course of action. If you are a happy with what you see in training and it translates to success, in your eyes, at an event then that is OK. I always keep in mind that what I see is not always what the judge sees so I must be prepared to take a few disappointments.

This is the single best post I have read thus far. Very explanatory.

Labradorks; Please correct me if I am wrong, but you live in the PNW? and have an English lab? I am very sorry that you had bad experiences with training groups. I have found the folks I have met to be very helpful, and patient. I too have an English lab. She is the first dog I have trained, for HT competition, and my success is largely due to the help I have received by folks who have been in this game longer than I have. You didn't say how old your lab is, but mine got her JH at 1, SH at 22 months, and we are working on masters. No, I have not pushed her, she loves the game. It has been very rewarding to see how far we have come, we are a team. It is not about chest beating, my dog is better than yours, but rather an awareness that she is capable of all that we accomplished. What is holding you back?

I like many others am a student of "Teaching", and realize there are many effective, safe, humane methods to train. Bill hillmann's training methods of conditioning (Teaching), versus correction, is not to be discounted. Although his methods may take longer, they are very effective.

I know next to nothing about clicker training, and find it very interesting as another possible tool in my dog training toolbelt. How does one teach the channel swim, and bank cheating concepts as well as sending the dog through an AOF, to get a blind, or no-ing off a mark to send to a blind or down the shore marks where the dog has to stay in the water 6 feet off the shore in clicker training? and at 100-150 yards? These are concepts that can bring out a Refusal, or No-go. These are concepts you can expect to see in Senior and Masters. Seniors is getting much harder, as Masters becomes much more conceptual/technical. I'm very interested in how those concepts are taught without some type of pressure/collar conditioning. Throw live flyers into the mix and the energy you will encounter at a test, and you have a whole different story, Not doubting you, just curious.

[Labradorks]

This is the single best post I have read thus far. Very explanatory.

Labradorks; Please correct me if I am wrong, but you live in the PNW? and have an English lab? I am very sorry that you had bad experiences with training groups. I have found the folks I have met to be very helpful, and patient. I too have an English lab. She is the first dog I have trained, for HT competition, and my success is largely due to the help I have received by folks who have been in this game longer than I have. You didn't say how old your lab is, but mine got her JH at 1, SH at 22 months, and we are working on masters. No, I have not pushed her, she loves the game. It has been very rewarding to see how far we have come, we are a team. It is not about chest beating, my dog is better than yours, but rather an awareness that she is capable of all that we accomplished. What is holding you back?

I like many others am a student of "Teaching", and realize there are many effective, safe, humane methods to train. Bill hillmann's training methods of conditioning (Teaching), versus correction, is not to be discounted. Although his methods may take longer, they are very effective.

I know next to nothing about clicker training, and find it very interesting as another possible tool in my dog training toolbelt. How does one teach the channel swim, and bank cheating concepts as well as sending the dog through an AOF, to get a blind, or no-ing off a mark to send to a blind or down the shore marks where the dog has to stay in the water 6 feet off the shore in clicker training? and at 100-150 yards? These are concepts that can bring out a Refusal, or No-go. These are concepts you can expect to see in Senior and Masters. Seniors is getting much harder, as Masters becomes much more conceptual/technical. I'm very interested in how those concepts are taught without some type of pressure/collar conditioning. Throw live flyers into the mix and the energy you will encounter at a test, and you have a whole different story, Not doubting you, just curious.

I am in the PNW and yes, I have a conformation bred Lab. My trainer has been in the game for decades. He has a more open-minded approach to training, I suppose. Working with some really great local obedience people who don't want to use force, he's developed some different ways of training. My Lab is a bit over two. I did not introduce him to birds until he was about 9 months then started working with him when he was a year. I went through one trainer that I just didn't care for in the end and started with another trainer last winter. Nothing is holding us back. Well, besides a very demanding job, work travel, being a single home-owner and the fact that my priority is obedience since it can be done at night and in any weather. We do what we can with the time we have.

I never said you'd teach all of those things you mentioned with clicker-training. I'm not saying you can't, I don't know. My dog was solid in obedience before he ever touched a bird. Of course, adding birds creates a serious distraction, but I also work with live flyers each time I have a lesson. In fact, Linus goes with my trainer to the pen to "pick" his bird (not really, but my trainer humors him) at nearly every lesson we have. So, I am able to train in realistic conditions on a fairly regular basis. I also do obedience training with distractions. For example, a down or sit stay with a Pomeranian running around the room or a ball bouncing or a treat dropping a few inches from the dog. This crosses over nicely to the field. We teach by setting the dog up for success, not allowing him to make mistakes, until it becomes a habit and the dog gains confidence. The initial training pond did not allow for cheating, the dog started off by going straight in, it became a habit, so he just does it. We added distractions, challenges, etc. slowly and built him up to an open pond. He knows no other way and more importantly he knows this is right as it has been reinforced the right way. Also, this dog has always been one to run straight out and over and through obstacles, water, brush, grass, etc. We've worked on go outs and directed retrieving in obedience since he was a pup, so we had a foundation there as well.

My experience has been different than yours as he has trained quickly using R+ methods. He shuts down using any other method. He is far ahead of the three dogs of the same age from my first field group, who are all field bred, but received very little -- if any -- obedience training prior to going into the field. They were all FF'ed and were just starting CC when I left the trainer and the group. Who knows, they may end up to be brilliant with time and maturity.

People talk about tools in toolboxes, but, like compulsion training, there is not just one way to teach R+ training exercises. It is not always with a clicker. It is not always with food. I did not reinforce the retrieve with a clicker, my dog was born knowing how and loving to retrieve. There are several R+ ways to teach a dog an exercise and it is always geared toward the dog's temperament. If anyone wants to know more, instead of questioning me as I am not a pro, there are people you can talk to who train in this fashion who may be able to share experiences and advice. There are R+ classes and books you can read, and I have found that R+ trainers are pretty good at sitting down with you to problem solve and if you talk to enough people, you can get all kinds of good ideas to try. My obedience trainer is at the MH level with her dog using R+ and she works with the same field trainer that I do, so I guess I am fortunate to have the local knowledge and support. There are also R+ training forums where people share information and experiences. If a person is only interested in poking holes in proven theories, especially without information and experience to back you up, that is an issue, but those smarter than I am will not humor that discussion.

At one time, no one thought you could do obedience and never correct your dog, but more and more people are doing it very successfully. Though Janice Gunn is not R+ in the field, she no longer corrects her dogs in obedience and has said she'll never go back. Denise Fenzi, not just in obedience, but she pioneered IPO using R+ methods, again, something that people thought could never be done. And yes, these women are pros, but that is where it all begins. Denise has brought an R+ field trainer to her team to teach foundation skills without the use of force. About 200 people have signed up for this very first class and there was a huge amount of support for this class even among those who do not have retrievers. The R+ movement in field is just beginning and is getting serious traction. I'm excited to see how it turns out.

[Anna Scott]

'We teach by setting the dog up for success, not allowing him to make mistakes, until it becomes a habit and the dog gains confidence."

" Understand how stress affects the dog. This sport (field trialing) demands many unnatural behaviours which require the use of some adversè or negative methods in our training (corrections) Communication between the handler and the dog challenges our understanding of how dogs work under stress. The flow and balance of training can directly affect stress levels. Also, overall care and routine directly affect stress on the dog" DO NOT TEACH WITH THE COLLAR OR ANY OTHER ADVERSIVE. THIS ADAGE SHOULD BE PRINTED ON OUR TRAINING EQUIPMENT. The proper use of pressure involves enforcing LEARNED behaviours. Dog training involves communication and interpretation of behaviour. The exact methods you choose may not be as important as you think. Dog training is not an exact science.
A good correction always involves the dog knowing the way out of the pressure not just the handler.
`Sorry this so long. The first quote is from Labradorks last post the second quoted section is from a field trial seminar put on by my trainer and his father. It still concerns me the some like Labradork see field trailers setting the dog up for failure so a correction can be administered. Nothing could be farther from the truth in the methods used today. The focus is on building momentum and this is done through teaching. All of the yardwork which includes basic obedience, leads to seeing these concepts put into practice during the transition phase of training. The tenants are teach, evaluate, modify (simplify ) Start with the simple and build to the complicated. If you are seeing a problem then break the steps down and simplify. Drills such as the no,no, the T & TT, pattern blinds, teaching long water entries, the swimby ( these are just a few)are all designed to set the dog up for success and build confidence by ingraining the concepts and making the difficult routine. Respect fòr the dog is primary. Do not take this for granted. Lòok carefully at your training practices and experience. Lack of respect can include being unfair by not giving the dog rules to follow.`

[TuMicks]

First off, Anna... I wish I could be training for FT. I have a FT dog. Boy, howdy... do I. She could do it in spades. But I don't have the contacts in FT's and have not found it possible to acquire them. BUT... not something to worry about right now. It's not like I've reached the limits of all possibilities in HT's. So, both the dog and I are more than challenged at present.

Rocket Dog is the quintessential field lab. She went through a very classical collar conditioning and force curriculum. But now... oh, my! Now the fun is certainly starting. We went out and did some wagon wheel drills today. If I put the collar on her, we could hack our way through a four way wheel, maybe an 8. But my goals were much more modest. I want her to line up by my leg with her toes precisely at my shoelaces. I want her to do it without prompts, verbal or electronic. I want her to be just right whether we're turning clockwise or counter clockwise. I did not use the collar... didn't even take it. I simply used denial. No... you cannot go until you're in the right place. It was so fun to watch her get frustrated and then thoughtful, then... very gradually, she'd come back with the bumper and line up in exactly the right spot. We were only using 2 bumpers (not much of a wheel.) But no sense in going to 4 until she's got 2 down exactly perfectly.

Now, here is my other observation about training. (One of those D'Oh revelations.) RD would do this drill with me All. Day. Long. She is as crazy for the first bumper as she is for the 74th one. She is no less intense after we've been doing this for 20 minutes than when we began. You could not do this with my 7 year old MH. Bright. Birdy, an exceptionally, amazingly talented hunting dog. Doesn't dig taking lessons. Doesn't like repetition. Gets resentful with pressure. Big time drama queen.

But Rocket Dog is so fun because you almost see her trying to figure it out every time... whadda-I-have-to-do-whadda-I-have-to-do-I'll-do-anything-just-tell-me-what-I-gotta-do-whadda-I-have-to-do-I'll-do-it-I've-got-it-just-let-me-get-it... she gives this energy off in almost tangible waves. How to describe it?

It is hard to get people to appreciate that we do NOT make the dogs do anything. They are CRAZY to do this. They want this more than they want life and breath. (Dinner is a close second, 'cause... they are labs, after all.) It makes the no-no-drill so simple, for instance. You just tell them... No. You cannot have the bumper/bird/whatever. Now come back here. That... right THERE. THAT is the line you want to take... that is your way to the bird. We don't punish them when they refuse an obstacle. We. Do. Not. Have. To.

And BTW: The way I structured today's drill was based upon a suggestion by the agility person we've been visiting, a person who uses only desire and motivation to produce championship agility dogs. But Rocket Dog has her basics down (via e-collar and force curriculum) and now we can use a wide range of tools to make progress.

[Labradorks]

Respect fòr the dog is primary. Do not take this for granted. Lòok carefully at your training practices and experience. Lack of respect can include being unfair by not giving the dog rules to follow.`

Since I started training R+ my dog is crystal clear on what he is supposed to be doing, which is one of the reasons I love the R+ way. If it wasn't working, I wouldn't be doing it. I would have gone back to the old way. I have a comparison point and I will never go back to compulsion training. I have the utmost respect for my dog, which is exactly why I train the way I do. I can assure you, the way of training that I follow is all about respect for the dog -- being fair, being consistent, teaching the dog what I want, being kind, being patient, etc. Until you learn about what I am doing with my dog, this way of training, you're not going to get it, and it's not worth the conversation.

[Labz]

Another very good post Anna! You are so much better at explaining than I am, and I hope I didn't convey the notion that Collars are used for TEACHING. If so, I apologize. Like you, and so many others, I train through repetition/attrition. Evan Graham, Bill Hillman, Jim Dobbs, and Mike lardy all believe strongly in setting the dog up to succeed, as well as many other note worthy Pro's. Bill Hillman has a great video on his blog about Rex Carr, and his methods/philosophy on training.

I have trained with field trailers, and respect the methods they use, as well as the results they get. I have never seen a cowering dog at a field trial, and maybe only 1 or 2 at a HT, and believe me I am pretty astute at watching a dogs demeanor. Like the horse world, you may see it from time to time, but it is certainly not the norm. I have found field trial folks to be loving, and respectful of their dogs, who truly feel that their dogs are part of their families.

I concur with your thoughts on the field trailers setting their dogs up to fail so they can get correction. It is as common a misconception as "English/Conformation Labs" are too stupid and slow to do either HT or FT. I also have concerns that by Labradorks posts, she is unconsciencely conveying that thought. Most English/confirmation lab breeders r get their pups on birds, by 8 weeks. Many of these pups are sold to hunting families, who are knowledgeable enough to look for birdiness. Getting the pup introduced to birds, nas nothing to do with obedience. At 8 weeks, pup can be a pup! There is plenty of time for all that we ask of our dogs later. Even my show friends, introduce their pups to birds at an early age.

Labradorks, I look forward to seeing you this spring at a test or two... It's so nice to see the "Short Leggers" in the game!

[TuMicks]

This is actually very offensive to me. Since I started training R+ my dog is crystal clear on what he is supposed to be doing. I have the utmost respect for my dog, which is exactly why I do not use force or punishment, intimidation tactics, shocking, pinching, smacking with heeling sticks, etc. Until you actually learn about what I am doing with my dog, this way of training, you're not going to get it, and it's not worth the conversation.

NOOOOoooooooo.

Passion, drive, enthusiasm, speed, joy, thrilling, hunger, urge, bird-lust, fervor, zeal, gusto, zest, keenness, excitement, exhilaration, eagerness, pleasure, delight, stylishness, intensity... you cannot produce these things, you can't nurture them with the methods you describe. You can only crush them. And yet these are what our dogs manifest in abundance. They burst with it. It comes off of them in almost palpable waves. It is their animating essence.

You have not seen, nor will you ever see a dog trained as you describe succeed even in the most meager elements of HT/FT. When Bridget stopped enjoying it... we stopped training her. She hunts with passion, so that's what she gets to do. But Rocket Dog... we have not begun to plumb the depths with this dog. She just gets more excited every time we go out.

[Anna Scott]

Labradork, that comment was not aimed specifically at you but at each of us. As trainers we need to be aware that we are embassadors for this sport. I have been positive about your methods as they are what works for you and your dog. You have made it clear that your first priority is obedience and that field work comes second. I can understand that as my situation is the reverse. Field is the passion , formal obedience and rally are a distant second. I have friends that are very big into obedience and nothing is good enough but a 200 score. What I really can not get into my head is why you want to denigrate field trainers and say that they do not understand your methods. I get them! Please keep us informed as to how your dog is doing. I would be very interested in following your progress and that of the other clients your trainer has running tests. I get all the field trial and hunt test results from the US and Canada and would love to know how they are doing. If you would PM some dog's names I would willing follow their successes. I don't believe in put other peoples names out on a public forum. The one thing that I have learned from my trainer, who learned it from his father, is that no two dogs are the same and that you need to constantly be monitoring and adjusting to meet success. You can not build momentum if the dog does not understand the task. So please keep telling us about your programme's success, but as you have said about us not knowing your methods, until you know more about the ways modern field trailers are training their dogs the conversation is not worth it.