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    Thread: Pressure

    1. #1
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      Pressure

      Gundog training tips - how to show displeasure - YouTube

      I thought this was an interesting clip since it was from across the pond where no e-collars are used. I am not suggesting that no e-collars = positive only training. Clearly, this is negative pressure. But the "displeasure" shown here was for the spaniel who tried to snatch the bird from the working lab. I feel sure the dog (1) understood he was doing wrong when he moved to snatch the bird and (2) understood the reason for the discipline he received. NOW, having said that, I think if this was the US and an e-collar was in use, the dog would have been nicked for breaking on the honor. IOW... it would have been indirect pressure (I think I have that right.) And, I think that nick would have been less noxious than the direct pressure seen here... (although, only the dog would be able to tell us and I'm sure he would not be up for a controlled test.)

      Now, I must admit... I could only understand about every other word the guy said (being as how I speak American and not English). But I did perceive that he was saying you had to know your dog to be able to meet out the right amount of displeasure.

    2. #2
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      That was hard to watch, training should not involve the dog yelping. And I don't care how "sensitive" the dog is. Just my opinion and I am sure there are those that will disagree.
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    4. #3
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      I tried several times to figure out what he was saying, and was very frustrated. So I didn't get it all. I can tell you that you get a lot less cringing and no vocalizing when I use a nick of the e-collar. Many times, you can't tell she's been nicked at all. I think I like our methods better. I see a possibility that the guy may be causing hand shyness.

    5. #4
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      Seriously, you see just a "possibility" that this guy may be "causing hand shyness"??!! The way the dog yelped and cringed was stomach turning, for me. I didn't really care what he said and have no desire to figure it out. I do know if someone did that to my dog, (or any dog, in my presence), my foot would be up their a$$, in a hot minute. They really don't need to waste their time, or mine, explaining their motive or "training theory".

      I am curious about one thing - what was the purpose of posting this? The video is just sad, it is abuse in my opinion. If my opinion makes me guilty of "drinking the kool-aid", let me pull up a chair so someone can pour me a nice, big glass full.

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    7. #5
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      I didn't dare watch the video because I knew it would upset me. I'll take Maxx & Emma's word for it. I also wonder what was the point in posting it.

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    9. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
      I didn't dare watch the video because I knew it would upset me. I'll take Maxx & Emma's word for it. I also wonder what was the point in posting it.
      You are very smart! It is really hard to un-see/un-hear ANY mistreatment/abuse of an animal. I was not really prepared for what happened and although I have certainly seen worse I would never have expected to see it here. (Unless the forum member posting it was commenting on how NOT to train a dog.) JMHO.

    10. #7
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      to each their own training technique. I can't and won't watch the video.

      What I don't get is most guide dogs are trained with positive training (the ones I know of). rewards. And this is a job that can have life and death consequences (especially crossing busy roads). Yet they STILL don't train using pressure or corrections. So why do hunting or field dogs (and honestly, MANY other sports and activities) train with pressure and corrections when the consequences in a trial is a DQ? (Ok in a real life hunt situation there could be some danger for the dog involved).

      Having said that: I TOTALLY admit I am not perfect. I try to be positive only but honestly, I do use some vocal corrections (cough - yelling - cough) and some leash corrections out of frustration. But I am working HARD on not doing this. Penny also shuts down with any sort of pressure so that's really made me more aware. Rocky was so non chalant that pressure does nothing either way. But, the one class he about flunked was the hunt class and I realized it was because they never talked about or used rewards (treats) because - for all the other dogs the fetching WAS the reward. But Rocky hated fetching. so with no treats he got no reward other than praise (which is low valu) and he shut down in class. Literally he would hide under a vehicle. Finally we had to re-think our entire approach and I was successfully able to get him to fetch a bumper HAPPILY but I had to revert to a good break then clicker+high valu reward for teh bumper.

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    12. #8
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      Maybe I missed something because I didn't have the volume on... Yeah he "man-handled" the pup but it's not like he beat it.

    13. #9
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      the question/topic seems to be adding pressure. not man handling/hurting a dog. Many positive based trainers will try to avoid "putting pressure" to the point a dog will react. I always get confused what quadrant that falls in - negative reinforcement (removal of an aversive stimulus)

    14. #10
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      There is definite hand shyness with the dog in the video. He was yelping/crying from the moment the man grabbed him by the scruff and dragged him away from the bird until he let him go. The dog was no worse for wear after the episode but it was completely unnecessary IMO. I'm failing to see what the dog learned there. A well taught leave-it would have been more beneficial in that scenario.

      And they guy was just rambling. I see no benefit in this video other than what NOT to do.

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