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  1. #1
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Just returned from AKC Judging Seminar

    Wow. There is so much to know and I'm so impressed with the excellent seminar. It was the basic seminar, and though I learned a lot, I also learned how much I have to learn.

    There were some great discussions. Like, how do you score "Style"? How do you rate the high roller who can barely contain himself, whose tail is pounding so hard it sounds like a manic bass drummer in the holding blind, who is doing the happy feet on the line as the birds go down... compared to the savvy old-timer who is sitting like a rock and watching every nuance of the birds going down and leaves the line with verve and confidence... contrasted with a dog who is just not that fast, but is obviously eager and having a good time, and flat out wants to be there and is happy to pick up the birds.

    We spent a lot of time on what a Junior test should look like. There is a whole lot to think about when it comes to putting together a meaty test that means something as opposed to an exercise to hand out participation ribbons. We spent a bunch of time on safety. And (OMG) time management!!! How big a deal is that???!!! We even discussed the trends in both FT and HT. (Not surprisingly, the entry numbers in HT are increasing and surpassing those of FT's.)

    In diagramming tests the lecturer showed how you could, using the same grounds, just changing a couple of features, make a stupid, meaningless waste of time and birds, into a meaty test for either Junior, Senior or Master dogs. A lot of knowing the difference is in knowing how dogs respond to factors, like ditches and roads, or (for instance) corn stubble or SAGE BRUSH (our particular favorite out here.)

    So... I have much to learn. Maybe in a couple of seasons of running and apprenticing at the various levels I'll begin to get the hang of it.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like a great seminar. We haven't had one here for a long time. The last one I attended was great. It was put on by a group of really experienced judges and we broke into groups and had to set up a test. Each group had to explain why they set their marks up as they did. I learned a great deal about bird placement and factors to consider when setting marks. A long time ago Bill set up a mark for us and we had to tell him how many factors were in that one mark. Being beginners we could see the obvious and picked out 4. Bill then showed us the other 9. It is amazing what will influence the line a dog takes. I think I told the story before about a very funny friend who was running an Amateur under another the friend. When they went to look at the field for the trial it was nothing but wide open space with a bit of a role. Carl said he was delighted and thought his dog would do a great job. The next day when he went to run the test he was amazed to see all these little saplings strategically placed through out the field. He said his dog ping ponged off everyone of them. Afterwards he always reminded our other friend about how she had really put one over on him. Those little trees changed the whole test area and with well placed birds it was no longer a wide open run.
    I hope you will continue to pursue judging. The best way to do that is to get involved. Your apprentice system is great. Being paired with an experienced judge is the best kind of learning situation.

  3. #3
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    In June I'll take the second (so-called "advanced") seminar. I don't feel ready for an advanced anything.

    Does the CKC require any particular training for judges in either HT or FT?

  4. #4
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    The CKC tried to initiate a judges' test but that seems to have fallen by the way side. It was an open book test and I think was just to ensure that the judges have read the rule book, not that there are that many black and white rules in the field trial rule book. With FT judges it is left to the club to select the judges and a judge must start with the minor stakes junior and then qualifying before they can judge the amateur and open major stakes. You are supposed to judge at least three at each the level. It is really important that the clubs pair the new judges with experienced mentor judges that will help them develop the skills needed. The problem is that many of the clubs are not offering minor stakes so new judges are few and far between. I spent the month of January trying to get four judges for the trial I am chairing. Some new people I called that would make terrific judges just weren`t sure of the processes so hopefully I have put a bur under their saddles and they will follow up. Also if you don`t judge for a period of time you have to start the process all over again. I did manage to get 4 great judges that are good matches for each other. That is the other part of the equation. Matching personalities and styles because judging has to be a collaborative process.HT judges usually come from the ranks of those experienced in running hunt tests. I sometime see this as a problem because many are not really hunters and some of the scenerios they set up would be down right dangerous hunting situation and if a game warden came along you would be charged. That is just my personal bugaboo. I often think they should just take the word hunting out of the test title. Don`t let me get started on gun safety! That was the one thing I really appreciated about the HR. Their stress on gun safety no matter what level you were running.

  5. #5
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    You have just spoken to one of my concerns about my own "cred" for becoming a judge. I don't hunt, (it's too early in the morning, too cold and too wet and I can't hit anything unless it's already dead.) But it had occurred to me to take our Hunter Safety Course offered by our State Wildlife Resources Dept. I don't think this would make me a credibly hunter. However, we're dealing with live ammunition, with poppers (that can be pretty damned damaging) with young people, dogs etc. etc. And yes, the club is responsible for getting competent gunners... but if something goes wrong, the judge on scene will be responsible too.

    So, I'm not a hunter, but I'm hoping that associating with dog people who are avid hunters, who are high point judges (like the ones in my training group) that some of their knowledge will rub off on me.

    Having said that... one of the folks in our group is an AKC Rep. There is apparently a judge who is a real problem (basically passes anyone unless he doesn't.. he's very arbitrary...) and bullies his co-judges. So the word has gotten to the AKC and (I'm told) they are going to deal with it.

    Anyway, I know I'll probably be setting up tests for very savvy hunters... so I better learn enough to satisfy the "realistic hunting" environment/scenarios required by the regulations.

  6. #6
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Who was the rep/ presenter? I attended one back ~2004 and just curious if the rep is still the one and same. I remember the discussion on "Style". That guy's perception of what he liked to see at tests (the one w/ its pants on fire basically) vs the normal hunter I sell to were totally different... Also, huge difference from breed to breed. A poodle is not going to be the same as a Lab, and Tollers, IWS, etc definitely have their own styles.
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  7. #7
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    I'll PM you with the name. But I think you would have approved of his read. He described a particular Golden (show bred) who was slow as molasses. He said that he was frequently criticized for scoring this dog fairly high on style. Other judges wanted to zero the dog out. BUT... he said the dog's ears were up, he was watching the marks like his life depended upon it, left the line with his tail high... he was just sort of a plodder. So... he didn't want to overly penalize a dog whose gait was more deliberate than... oh, I don't know... than say Rocket Dog. On the other hand, the type of dog this presenter said he tends to zero out is the dog who obviously doesn't want to be there. Tail between the legs, slinking to the the line, etc.

    That made sense to me.

    I think a hunter would not necessarily want to hunt over a 2 y.o. Rocket Dog. She has to be monitored because, seriously, she just GOES. However, she is also rapidly maturing and will be a great hunting dog before too long. But none of the 9 dogs in her litter went to hunting homes.

  8. #8
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    Not sure how, but I double posted.

  9. #9
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    Training with people who hunt and are high point judges is a great way to gain knowledge and learn about hunting situations. Be sure to ask lots of questions. Taking the hunter safety course is also a great idea. I really wish that it would be a requirement for all handlers so that they treat even our wooden stick guns with the respect a gun is due. I can remember being at a test where I had to leave the handlers meeting and go and bite my tongue. They handed the group a single shot 12 gauge which everyone started waving about. There was no respect for the gun what so ever. Then when you came to the line the gun was leaning against a tree unbroken (big no no). You could not even pick it up and check if it was safe ( which is what should be done) because the moment you broke the gun that was the signal for the first bird to come out. This is the same judge that sets up a master test where you sit your dog at the line and walk out several feet to plant a decoy. That is the signal for the first gun. Let me tell you if I was planting my decoys and someone opened fire there would be hell to pay. These are not safe hunting practices.
    Windy Canyon is right different breeds work in different manners and you need to be aware just like all labs do not work in the same manner. At one of the first hunt test judges seminar I attend they set up some marks and everyone was to judge what they saw. One of the dogs was a high flying black lab, the other was a large boned show type golden. The scores for style for the lab were much higher than those of the slower moving methodical golden. As long as we are dealing with human judges the bias is going to creep in. When it comes to style I try to keep the criteria to did the dog go to the AOF, did it pick the birds up clean and did it return to deliver to hand. I also look for a wagging tail, is the dog enjoying what it is doing. Hunt tests are not time events so it should not make a great deal of difference how fast the dog runs. Know your rule book and learn about the different working style of the breeds. I will admit that we have a friend with IWS's and they drive me nuts. They will run out with great enthusiasm and then stand over the bird deciding whether they will pick it up or not. They give her that myopic look through their fuzzy top knots and I am just itching to give a correction. Another friend's toller runs out to the bird and then rolls it over to make sure it is a nice neat package that way he doesn't get a wing over his eyes. I don't think this behaviour should every result in a lower score. Judges need to leave their own biases in the truck and judge the work not the breed. We had one judge that took the line " would you hunt with this dog" to a ridiculous standard. He would not hunt with a golden, toller, IWS, or a bench lab. So handlers with those breeds automatically got lower scores. This type of attitude does not belong in the judges chair and thank heaven he got out of the game. Judging can be thankless but you will gain so much from the experience that it becomes easy to ignore those that are not happy with your efforts. There are always some. One of my training buddy`s says that there are only every two happy people at a FT the one that got second and the one that got first and by the time they get home the one that got second is no longer happy because he feels he should have got first. Judges, especially FT judges, need to grow a thick skin.

  10. #10
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    Sage advice. I have only run a dog twice. I ran my MH in Senior in order to shake the nerves/hysteria associated with standing on the line with a dog. (You know, when I'm in the gallery, I am the best damn handler that ever walked the face of the earth!) Anyhow, on one of those occasions, I pointed the gun right at the judges. Very careless. They should have DQ'd me. But, here is the deal...

    I grew up shooting pistols with my dad. Let me tell you... I KNOW all about where the gun is pointed or not. He was very strict and I'm to this day, very, very solemn and serious about it. But it just didn't penetrate my head that I was holding a weapon. If they had given me a plugged, defunct old shotgun (I think they had something like that at Medford)... I would never have made that mistake. But they didn't DQ me and I was sufficiently mortified about the whole thing, I won't make that mistake again.

    I have not ever seen an IWS. But I've watched three Curly-coats come through out training group. They seemed to me to be dumb as stumps. BUT... there is a new little gal that is cute and fun to watch and has real potential. Not super fast... but she wants the bird and you can see her using her eyes and then in the AOF working with her nose.

    Not a lot of stuff happening in HT's out west this March. Only Norcal (Corning, CA) is within driving distance. So I'll get my Hunter Safety course done.

 



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