Hold help

[Labradorks]

Lol, knew this would happen. Hilarious. My older dog learned this as an adult too. Did he turn into a quivering puddle of a labrador? No, he didn't. He learned a new thing and then we moved on.

Good for you and your dog. It clearly works for some dogs. Not for others. Are you suggesting that I am lying that it turned my dog off simply because it worked for your dog?

If the OP doesn't want to force it, which they have stated, that is their prerogative.

[indybindy]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm simply recommending that she try a different direction if the dog still doesn't have a hold after 2 MONTHS. And maybe that direction should be one that works for most every successful test and trial dog out there

[Labradorks]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm simply recommending that she try a different direction if the dog still doesn't have a hold after 2 MONTHS. And maybe that direction should be one that works for most every successful test and trial dog out there

This method works not because other methods do not, but because it's the way it's been done for a very long time. And for some people, "if it ain't broke, why fix it?" Good for them! For some dogs (and their people) this method is not an issue and for some dogs (and their people) it is. Thankfully there are multiple ways to train dogs that appeal to not only the dogs but their owners.

The OP said: I have tried (very limited trying) holding his mouth closed with the bumper in it - thats just a big struggle, and didnt seem to be getting us anywhere.

[IRISHWISTLER]

Certainly there are a number of different routes to get a K9 to HOLD and I am by no means suggesting me own approach is the best, nor the only one. I can confidently state that me methods result in a dog that "HOLDS" on command, does so dependably, does not chew or mouth the item dysfunctiomally, and releases the item upon the command "GIVE" in a classic delivery to hand.

I do not intend for this post to be a sequential tutorial on me method of "HOLD" comditioning, but a glimpse at some of the progression made along the way.


Initially I get the dog comfortable in being on a training table as just another place to be (NOT a place to be feared). The retriever is then imtroduced to me gloved hand. The connection between me hand and the dog's mouth transmitts information to meself from the dog. I can detect excessive pressure exerted, a weak / unsure HOLD, chewing / mouthing no matter how slight, and make needed corrections or deliver immediate praise upon desired response from the K9. All of this is done whilst continually building further trust upon that previously realized through prior training.


Subsequent HOLD conditioning will introduce HOLD as being a command that will be generalized a number of different objects and eventually off of the controlled area specific to the training table.


Field training like pigeon shoots provide high frequency opportunities to handle / HOLD birds under conditions closely simulating those realized during a typical hunt for waterfowl and lend the retriever valuable practical experience under me watchful eyes as his / her trainer.


WALKING HOLD drills are an opportunity for the trainer and dog to work as a team in shaping the desired behaviors expected from the issue of the command HOLD through the subsequent command GIVE.


A confident, dependable, and highly motivated HOLD under actual field conditions every time the command is issued is proof positive of effective methodology in HOLD conditioning.

Cheers,
Irishwhistler

[Scoutpout]

oh dear,,,,,, i REALLY didnt mean for this to become the heated forced-not forced debate again! seriously, every dog and every handler is different. Since what i have been trying with Scout isn't making the connection for him that i'm looking for, its time to try it another way. It could be the way he learns, its more likely the way i'm doing it, since i've seen it work for several other dogs.

And yes, the fact that we can't progress to any other more "fun" stuff is exactly why "Hold" was the goal over the winter lay-up (except there was no lay-up and hardly any winter!). I would like to do his WCI and his JH but can not do either without the HOLD. Even with the drills we're running, he's getting the other concepts, but is sorely lacking, due to me, in the 2 basics!

[Labradorks]

oh dear,,,,,, i REALLY didnt mean for this to become the heated forced-not forced debate again! seriously, every dog and every handler is different. Since what i have been trying with Scout isn't making the connection for him that i'm looking for, its time to try it another way. It could be the way he learns, its more likely the way i'm doing it, since i've seen it work for several other dogs.

And yes, the fact that we can't progress to any other more "fun" stuff is exactly why "Hold" was the goal over the winter lay-up (except there was no lay-up and hardly any winter!). I would like to do his WCI and his JH but can not do either without the HOLD. Even with the drills we're running, he's getting the other concepts, but is sorely lacking, due to me, in the 2 basics!

It will always turn into force vs. non-force, which is fine. You're right -- different things work for different dogs. Owners, too!

I re-read what you have been doing. Which sounds exactly like the issue we were having. I'm still going to video for you, but quick questions.

Does your dog spit out the item on the way back from a retrieve?

Or does he bring it close to you and spit it out?

Are you able to get your hand underneath it so it falls in your hand (or you catch it in your hand)?

If he does drop it too far for you to grab it, are you able to tell him to fetch it again and this time will he bring it closer so you can catch it?

[TuMicks]

I think what may differ between the "Force" people and the more "positive" approaches (besides anthropomorphization on both sides... after all, what is "force" to a dog? What is "positive" to a dog, besides dinner and car-rides where he gets to stick his head out the window and smell a million scents as they race past him at 60 mph... But I digress)

Eh hem.

Anyhow, one difference between the two camps is the broader purpose behind each. For the so-called "force" fetch approach, is not just pick it up and hold. It's GO OUT, pick it up, bring it back, release, GO OUT again. The FF training leads directly into training to do blinds and handling.

And it is completely possible to do much of the early work involving bringing marks to hand using a range of methods. So you won't find me arguing against anyone else's opinions here. Just understand that we do what we do for a range of reasons, not just HOLD.

[Scoutpout]

I think what may differ between the "Force" people and the more "positive" approaches (besides anthropomorphization on both sides... after all, what is "force" to a dog? What is "positive" to a dog, besides dinner and car-rides where he gets to stick his head out the window and smell a million scents as they race past him at 60 mph... But I digress)

Eh hem.

Anyhow, one difference between the two camps is the broader purpose behind each. For the so-called "force" fetch approach, is not just pick it up and hold. It's GO OUT, pick it up, bring it back, release, GO OUT again. The FF training leads directly into training to do blinds and handling.

And it is completely possible to do much of the early work involving bringing marks to hand using a range of methods. So you won't find me arguing against anyone else's opinions here. Just understand that we do what we do for a range of reasons, not just HOLD.

I agree, a FF dog is all about the whole process, not (just) the hold. At his age, i don't think i will go back and do the force fetch program with him. I may wind up "forcing" the hold. I am happy enough to have him be getting the ideas behind the basic drills and retrieves we're doing. And honestly, at this point, its also mostly about training ME, having never been exposed to working and training a retriever before. Poor Scout is basically a guinea pig for me. I had seen the Stakes at the CNE a bunch of times, and seen a few Field trials on tv over the years, and growing up several of the neighbours had "hunting dogs", but this is new for me. And you know, I have found i really enjoy it! Seeing the dogs do what they are bred to do has always been a pleasure, whether its herding, tracking, retrieving, whatever. To actually work with a dog, taking one who has never been exposed to it, who had zero interest in fetching, and see him turn into a dog who gets so happy and excited about going out and picking up a bird....wow.

[Scoutpout]

It will always turn into force vs. non-force, which is fine. You're right -- different things work for different dogs. Owners, too!

I re-read what you have been doing. Which sounds exactly like the issue we were having. I'm still going to video for you, but quick questions.

Does your dog spit out the item on the way back from a retrieve?

Or does he bring it close to you and spit it out?

Are you able to get your hand underneath it so it falls in your hand (or you catch it in your hand)?

If he does drop it too far for you to grab it, are you able to tell him to fetch it again and this time will he bring it closer so you can catch it?

That would be super, thank you. We have field tomorrow, I know we're going to be running that wagon wheel drill again, and working with the push/pull, so it will be interesting to see if he repeats last week in that he gets better as the back to back retrieves happen about bringing the bird all the way back. To answer your questions:

Question 1 and 2 - Its a fairly consistent drop at about 8-10ft from the line. very occasionally further out, but he will do other not-so-desirable behaviours out there on the way back while holding the bird (peeing, going off-line to sniff something..) Anna saw this on the last land component of his WC tests last fall. She saw him do the 1st run of the day, in water, and he got up on the shore and I was able to catch the birds. The other judge then saw him do land, and he brought them across the line and i was able to catch as he dropped. Then back to water for the 3rd run of the day, and basically a repeat of the 1st run, only more eager to get back to me with the birds and get in ready to go for the 2nd bird. It was a hot day, there was a lunch break, and then a bit of a wait and the land was the last run of the day (he'd already qualified for his WC by then under the other judge). it was pretty bad. Out to get the 1st bird, slow coming back, dropped bird about 10ft away, got him to pick up and bring across line, but i don't think i caught it. 2nd bird, he wasn't paying attention and had to hunt for it. Dropped it at least 2x, maybe 3, coming back, had to basically beg him to pick it up the last time and bring across line. He was done.

Question 3, 4 - Often if I can get him to pick it up again (from the 10ft distant drop) and step back a step or 2 as he's coming in, i can get my hand under it as he drops. I am worried that bending down/reaching out is becoming a body language command for him to "Out"

I can often tell by his body language if he will pick it up again before i even tell him to.

I will be very interested to see if we do run a bunch of back to backs again tomorrow, if he gets "better" at bringing the bird all the way back the more we do. He knows he doesn't get to go for another one until he's in position at my side, and by not stopping to drop the bird, that will happen quicker. I have also with no fuss just taken him off and put him up when he was being especially sloppy and not doing well going out, picking up, or any of it -that was a few weeks ago, all the dogs were horrible that day, we all were just saying, well its one of THOSE days. He was better coming out of the truck for the next time but still...

[TuMicks]

I agree, a FF dog is all about the whole process, not (just) the hold. At his age, i don't think i will go back and do the force fetch program with him. I may wind up "forcing" the hold. I am happy enough to have him be getting the ideas behind the basic drills and retrieves we're doing. And honestly, at this point, its also mostly about training ME, having never been exposed to working and training a retriever before. Poor Scout is basically a guinea pig for me. I had seen the Stakes at the CNE a bunch of times, and seen a few Field trials on tv over the years, and growing up several of the neighbours had "hunting dogs", but this is new for me. And you know, I have found i really enjoy it! Seeing the dogs do what they are bred to do has always been a pleasure, whether its herding, tracking, retrieving, whatever. To actually work with a dog, taking one who has never been exposed to it, who had zero interest in fetching, and see him turn into a dog who gets so happy and excited about going out and picking up a bird....wow.

Absolutely. This really gets my juices flowing as well. I saw a video taken at the last coursing hound trial held in England, where for the first time I saw what these beautiful animals were bred to do (as opposed to running around a track for people to bet on.) The dogs were run in teams of two after a rabbit/hare that was given quite a head start. It was awesome to watch. Even on my small computer screen it gave me goose flesh. And who could not sit and watch herding trials for hours on end? Especially if you have some one to explain the intricacies of what is going on.

Dog shows are wonderful things. And I trust the people who tell me that they help preserve what's best in the breed(s). And I'm pulling for a lab to win the WKC someday. (We just don't get the respect we deserve!) But oh my... to watch excellent retrieving work happen... wow. Just wow.